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[Emma]

Where do I stand on what, Gailon?

On punishment to be meted out to adulterers and paedophiles in general, and in the Sheltons in particular?

On what should happen to my ex?

I have stated my position several times......it is not up to individuals to determine temporal punishment.  By all means bring the
perpetrators to justice if possible, but I do not consider that lay people (of which I am one in a legal sense) have the right to
perform as judge, jury and 'executioner'.

(King) David did worse things than many others, but he sincerely and totally repented.   As God will know the condition of the sinner's heart the final punishment will be just.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

"I was asking about real statistical proof, your argument presupposes that most murderers will reoffend.  And that statement does not answer the question about comparative rates of murder in States where the punishment is different." Emma
[/quote]

My argument is logical...statistics on this issue are usually compiled by anti-capital punishment groups and are logically meaningless as in most states if you are caught for "murder" in the first degree, you will pay with either the death penalty after a dozen years or more of appeals or you will spend the rest of your life incarcerated in a maximum security prison. And you just may get away with murder with the right attorney.

However, the statistics for murderers who are released is in fact not good as many, if not most, will re-offend. And many of these will be killed by police in the chase to avoid incarceration after they "kill" yet again.

And perhaps that is the proof that killing killers saves lives as the newspapers over the years of my life have been replete with the stories of killers released who kill yet again and are killed in the chase. THAT IS PROOF THAT KILLING KILLERS DETERS MURDER.

However, if you would be willing to prescribe a "life sentence" as an alternative to the Death Penalty for Adultery, I would say that even that is some deterent....in the inverse, since the death penalty fails to sufficiently deter murder by way of your definition, should we just let it go unpunished???

And again, I assert, no punishment for murder would likely make it just as prevalent as adultery and I would suggest that there is evidence to support that in lawless ungoverned parts of Africa, for example.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[Emma]

(I have technical difficulties replying to quoted posts.)

There are some things on which Gailon and I may not find common ground.    Neither of us is bringing any proof to this discussion,
just personal deductions from our respective positions.  And discussions of that nature can become convoluted and bitter.


That is as it is.......and way off the topic of  the response I initially made in this thread.

[Bob Pickle]

Gailon is there any reliable evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent against murder?

Emma,

"How carefully God protects the rights of men! He has attached a penalty to wilful murder. "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed" (Gen. 9:6). If one murderer were permitted to go unpunished, he would by his evil influence and cruel violence subvert others. This would result in a condition of things similar to that which existed before the flood. God must punish murderers. He gives life, and He will take life, if that life becomes a terror and a menace. Mercy shown to a wilful murderer is cruelty to his fellow men." (2SAT 186, 187)

It is interesting that God never instituted jail time for crime.

We are not under a theocracy. Civil governments today can only regulate man's relationship with man, not man's relationship with God. They can only enforce the second table of the 10 Commandments, not the first.

However, the death sentence for murder, which God prescribed in Gen. 9, long before Mt. Sinai and the nation of Israel, must be fairly administered, irrespective of wealth or fame or social status or lawyers.

[tinka]

As I see it, Sharia (thanx) law goes into and eye for an eye and the taking of life from daughters that fall in love outside their beliefs, it takes away all freedom of choice. It is forceful. Jesus came and changed their eye for an eye. Moses was given a set of commands that Gailon is right on. and some commands of punishment was from God to His people..and then their is the people that were not God's people outside the realm of things.

Now in our day and time where perfection of law keepers of individuals is hardly any where to be found, I still find difference in the levels of sin. But what ever God commanded for His righteous people and all things created and the wisdom of Lucifer on it all gave Lucifer great advantages to destroy what God had done..as we all know. Always a duplication( Sabbath,Chrismas, Easter, etc.etc.) always a way to undo God's law or distort.

So in the process of "punishment" using the death penalty punishment, Satan mastered it to be in misuse and evil in societies without almost no righteous left found away to "switch blame "and kill the innocent. Many have suffered the "blame" of the guilty.  

Even though I do believe that the guilty should be done as prescribed with agreemeant of Gailon and Biblical, but I must draw the line for the protection of the innocent blamed and executed now as we watch all within reason of actions as Satan always newly develops new plans. So I would no longer unless guilty"with no doubt and extreme witness of more then 2 would I vote for death penalty. Otherwise no, I have changed my mind on it because of the devils use of it against the innocent. Therefore, let them set and rot and get what is in prison for them to get. It all comes out in the end. I really believe what goes around comes around. There are times and getting to be more and more with me that God "does the punishment" when we can't determine proof without doubt or counteract it. We see more and more the evil coming down until there in nothing but overwhelming powerless against the greed, murder, molestations, killing of children etc. that Jesus just must now come and end it.

OJ Simpson was a case of that very fact. They can argue all day long about they know, they think and they believe he did it. He can write a book and "dance around with the public" in a book. But I for one would have voted not guilty simply because there was too much other ways that could have been with the wife's and sisters agendas. I watched it everyday and picked out many flaws that they never even brought up or mentioned for other possibilities. No witnesses, no conviction and no blame. Only God knows 100% and then in that case it is purely up to God for the punishment. But one thing one does not realize is the double jeopardy they then let happen to OJ with the civil case of which is supposed to be against our law. Hmmm,   It was not even Karma in the end for OJ but a setup. We had close friends of OJ in the keys of Florida. OJ told them way before but not sure of what things were going to happen to him. He did not comply with........So if He did do it the Lord only knows for sure. If we do not see, If we do not have evidence beyond circumstantial then we can not convict according to our instructions "find " "guilty".
One of the worst cases they did all this was the trial of "Jesus". That should be our example to follow the instructions for claiming "guilty". Jesus was never guilty!!

Our case, we were never guilty of all accusation drummed up but had all documents proving otherwise. The church members brought on the political and the political brought on our loss.  It was just plain injustice. and hang on to your socks that way down the line of our loss -the Karma is one setting in jail for murder and you out there know who it is. God knows what they did for greed of what someone else was given by God. How it became ours is a book in its self with no doubt what God gave us.  So deceivement of Satan is a great thing to cause us to have more discernment and nix the cloak of evil and when in doubt be careful of what you do and trust no man and let God do His mysterious acts. Years have now taught us. Was it possible for God to use us to test others and us too? Maybe!

[Emma]

Bob, my point was not whether or not the death penalty should be available for murder.  That is a whole other
discussion.

Gailon seems to believe that the death penalty is a deterrent to murder, and that some severe punishment
for adultery would be a deterrent for that crime/sin.

I was trying to ask whether there is evidence that severe punishment is a deterrent to others who might be tempted
to commit that sin.   Gailon stated that killing a murderer would prevent reoffence.  Obviously that is correct...but it does not
answer what I asked.

Tinka, I find your comments on the Simpson case interesting, both for itself and as an example.   I did not follow it as closely
as you have.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Well, let me clarify that logic dictates that if a murderer is dead he cannot kill again. That is a clear deterrent. It also eliminates the danger to guards and their families as well as other inmates and their families. These are statistics the anti-death penalty liberals fail to measure, not to mention the frequent failure that parole boards came to deal with as murderers foregiven or granted privilege all too frequently damage or destroy more lives despite the opportunity at a second chance. The penalty for murder must be the death penalty.

However, the premise that statistics somehow support the premise that the death penalty is not a deterent is a falacy as it does not take into account that every state imposes either death penalty or life without parole. It is foolish to assume that punishment for a crime is not a deterent, whether lifelong incarceration or death penalty...and I will assert that if there were no punishment, as we almost unanimously adopted for Adultery, pornography and even pedophilia, that murder rates would sky-rocket.

And, as Bob has pointed out, such an environment was pervasive ante-deluvian.

By eliminateing the punishment for Adultery, et al, as a society we have innoculated ourselves to the root of so many societal ills. And we reap the whirlwind that results from this decline in abhorrence for adultery, et al. It has just become another source of pain and suffering accepted as "just part of life" and not the vicious crime against the victims and society that it really represents.

Punishment would inevitably be a deterent!!! No punishment encourages abhorrent behaviour.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[horsethief]

I know that if  Tommy or Danny type went after one of my children, then there would be no trial for them. But for what I would do to them, there is not a jury in this country that would convict me for it.

[horsethief]

Just wanted to also add that for what John Manley has done and for what he is doing, he is among the remnant. One of the righteous among nations...

[Murcielago]

As the days go by and I see and hear what people would like to do in the name of religion, I am very grateful that I do not live in a theocracy where they could impose their execesses on the population in the name of God, EGW and Bible. When good is used to justify evil, that good ceases from being good. And when evil is used to perpetuate good it negates the good and the whole thing becomes evil.

We can talk about the barbaric actions of the Taliban, the Inquisition, and the Roman Colliseum, but in the name of religion or politics even the most civilized people quickly turn into inhuman beasts, using God to justify it.

[tinka]

Murcielago,

What would you suggest for a solution? or the correct way to deal with molestations of youth and what and how it should be done? I think God has one suggestion  of putting a noose around your neck with a stone and put in the sea. That it would be better to do that then the ultimate.

[mrst53]

By some of the comments on the site, if I were Tommy, I would be worried about my life, if the Judge ruled in my favor and gave me no jail time. While I believe that Tommy  needs be punished since he says he is guilty, corporal punishment by someone on this site should not be considered. His life is not worth someone elses.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Murcielago,
What would you suggest for a solution? or the correct way to deal with molestations of youth and what and how it should be done? ...

Tinka, did you miss the answer???

“As the days go by and I see and hear what people would like to do in the name of religion, I am very grateful that I do not live in a theocracy where they could impose their execesses on the population in the name of God, EGW and Bible.” Murcielago

It is clear Murcielago has little regard for God’s Ideal Society, a/k/a a “theocracy”…or for the messages given to the world defining just what would be in their best interest and the ideals they should reach for. Bible instruction is defined as “excesses”!!!

I believe Murcielago, the bull known for having survived 28 spanish bullfighting swords, or maybe it is the Lamborghini “supercar”, although I shall presume the former, has made it very clear he does not find the theocracy of Israel an acceptable socio-governmental  structure. Or is it that he simply finds the application of those same great principals to a modern world “revolting” and has not yet figured out that the reason he was subjected to 28 swords was the failure of the United States or the world we live in to abide by God’s ideal socio-governmental plan for a Judeo-Christian society???

“When good is used to justify evil, that good ceases from being good. And when evil is used to perpetuate good it negates the good and the whole thing becomes evil.” Murcielago

And here we have a clear message that capital punishment is “evil” and only “grace” for perpetrators and murderers ought to be considered. To clean up a murderous society full of sexual perpetrators by invoking capital punishment is evil and the whole concept of accountability is evil!!! I believe that is the correct and logical translation of his statement.

“We can talk about the barbaric actions of the Taliban, the Inquisition, and the Roman Colliseum, but in the name of religion or politics even the most civilized people quickly turn into inhuman beasts, using God to justify it.” Murcielago

And the summary is that religion and politics is the real root of all evil and what is really wrong with the world, so much so that religion and politics will turn people into “inhuman beasts”… now I think that is pretty clear answer to your question!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[Murcielago]

I would suggest life in prison.

Murcielago,

What would you suggest for a solution? or the correct way to deal with molestations of youth and what and how it should be done? I think God has one suggestion  of putting a noose around your neck with a stone and put in the sea. That it would be better to do that then the ultimate.

[Murcielago]

Gailon, to the contrary, I firmly believe in capital punishment. There are crimes that should certainly be met with a death sentence. But to put a person through torture is not necessary. Dead is dead. We don't need to become what we fight against.

But you are correct that I would not care to live in a theocracy of any kind, governmental or corporate. Iran, 3ABN, Waco, the Taliban, Jonestown... the list goes on. When human rulers claim divine authority over their subjects, and claim to rule in the name of a god, terrible things follow.