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[tinka]

No, I am not a believer of Satan having another chance. But I think he thinks thats must be the case if he can take all.

 I think I understand about the "forgiveness" in order to heal of which much has come our way also. I also consider the murder type of "forgiveness" that you give in examples in which is an ultimate thing. But somehow and some way and not sure but I also think there is different levels of sin. but all have to be answered to without repentance. Then there is a type of sin that I feel is way out and beyond in the dark side that is just sickening horrifying. Then the unforgivable sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit. and somehow that is what is so sickening is when an individual might already have done that long before he dies and claims others to take with him. (as Satan does) I know we cannot judge but these I think sometimes might be worse then death.

 I know on the internet it shows different places of molested children I looked at one of these links that a poster on here put on. It stays with you and you want to do something about it and it just does not go away knowing the agony of these children. Guess I am too much of a mother protector of God's little gifts. Just can't hardly cope with their hurt and did not know those sites were there and will not look at it again. Just know that this happens and very sick within a church that had been blessed with truth. One example is the derelict that buried the little girl alive in Florida.  It seems the works of Satan is the hardest to do but know it will come with Judgement.

 Then I realize that these perverts were once babies too. What in the world happened to take them to distruction in this horrible dark way?  I guess it remains one word... choice and that is an ultimate thing. yes it is very sad.

I think "forgiveness" has a lot of different avenues as we hate the acts of intentional inflicted selfish distruction of humans... then there is war and Jesus knows all about that and for what reasons.  Sins of the people..... Before Iraq I saw the pictures of human distruction in the worst ways from Hussein. I wanted him dead. So now I am guilty. I could'nt stand him cutting tongues out and limbs off and throwing people off roofs to their death.

[Murcielago]

Forgiveness is most often easier said than done. Theoretical discussion on matters intellectually understood are vastly different than the place where the rubber hits the road. On an intellectual level most people will agree with Di. On a practical level it is not always feasible to effect the lofty principles one embraces.

[Chrissie]

Once again, I guess I am going to take up the unpopular opinion here.

Our Pastor is doing a series on forgiveness at prayer meeting and it is very good, and not at all what some expect.  He started by telling us what forgiveness "is not".  One of the things it "is not" is diminishing or nopt rememberbing the offensive behavior.  Another is that it does not save one from the consequences of their actions.

Now, apply those two items to this topic.  It is possible to feel sorry and even forgive TS for the terrible things he has done.  But that does not mean that they won't be remembered.   Some people mistakenly believe that forgiveness means acting as if nothing happened, and placing one self in the offenders line of fire, so to speak.....Not so.  it has to be acknowledged if the process healing and forgiveness are to begin.  Neither does forgiveness mean that he should not pay the consequences for his actions.  The acts of mercy and forgiveness says, " I know you have done this terrible thing, and I forgive you, but I will be going to the authorities.  You will still pay the consequences.  Why? Because sin carries it's own consequences from which we cannot be saved. 

Case in point, Adam and Eve.  Jesus still came to redeem even them from their sins.  However, they were still evicted from the garden, till the ground for a living, Eve(and all women) endure child birth with great pain, etc.  Even though they were forgiven, they still paid the consequences for the actions. 

TS is no different.  You can feel sorry, pity, and even his victims, in due process, can forgive him.  That by no means excuses him from any punishment the law requires for his crimes.  TS is still God's child.  God's child with some serious issues, but God's child nonetheless, not personified sin.  This by no means takes away the horror and compassion given to the victims of these horrific crimes, nor is it to be seen as being disloyal to them.  ALL are victims of sin, offender and his victim.

Spot on Di. You put it it in words I couldn't find to express what I was thinking.

The one thing I'll never 'get' though is when people feel 'so sorry' for the perpetrator that they want to hide it all and pretend it didn't happen; all the while allowing that person to go on doing more of the same, coz we all know that until their wings are well and truly clipped, pedaphiles will go on with more of the same. If only those people had the same amount lof sympathy for the DAMAGED victims/survivers. To me, those people are no bettter than the perpetrator themselves.

[tinka]

Is it possible that the love of humans without hate is automatic "No forgiveness necessary". It's just the act you have to "overcome" or heal from"?? and it comes from faith in Jesus and His Healing? Does it make a difference in length of time it takes to heal because of less faith? Does one realize that we all sin and do not place our selves in superior over others that forgiveness is required and just have to focus in society to "overcome" the inflictions of others or do we stand against an inflicter of others. It always seems that "forgiveness" is automatic with your children. The love is still there. I do not forgive the Devil. The hate word for me means this focus on  sin. I do have that in my emotions. I do realize that some people do hate people then "forgiveness" is not automatic unless asked from God and the person you hate. Can a perpetrator ask forgiveness and do it again and again after -to make way for his added "devilish priority" of his horrific desires?  His love is only for his self or he could not do it. To me Love and forgiveness is one thing in hand that goes together automatically.  So we are either a child of God or child of (symbolic CAIN)

[horsethief]

Truth be told here. Tommy & Danny have used Christianity as a disguise for the three things that they desire the most: money, power and sex. They don't care who they trample upon in order to get it either.

More victims might be coming forward as these legal and civil cases unfold.

[mrst53]

My father tried to kill me when I was 19. He was under the influence of alcohal, but also, I believe Devil possesed. He had decided that since I was getting married and he could have me, no one could. He even told the judge that. The next morning he didn't remember what he had done. It took me a long time to forgive him, even as a Christian and an even longer time to forget. Now I barely remember, unless someone brings it up. but the forgiveness and forgetfullness can come. I hate the alcohal because it ruined his life, my Mom's marriage and the time my son's could have had with him. I guess this is an example of hating the sin, not the sinner.

[tinka]

Truth be told here. Tommy & Danny have used Christianity as a disguise for the three things that they desire the most: money, power and sex. They don't care who they trample upon in order to get it either.

More victims might be coming forward as these legal and civil cases unfold.

and that is not really a child of God but a way of a child of (Cain) that is from God's creation to milk the promises, use presumption that there is always forgiveness after the sin, I don't believe they can get a way with that presumption of not paying liability somewhere down the line. and some of this presumption will cost loss of eternity. Now that is where the dark they like to be in knowing whatever they do will be forgiven. That is presumption and on a dead end street of no return. Now wasn't that the exact pattern that Lucifer did on the mountain top with Jesus?? Yes it was. Did it change Lucifer, no it did not. Lucifer presumed Jesus would save himself. You do not need presumption of "forgiveness" if love is there for mankind. No love, no forgiveness. I sort of look at it that way. OH, and yes, one would ask for "forgiveness to protect his own self" sort of thing and that is where they begin to "fear the retribution" of their folly. That is also the case with the Justifyers of all wrong deeds, wrong words against scripture, words against the prophets, false prophets, and the worst place to be in is the church knowing and doing this using God's house. Whoa, that is bad  Better to be a sinner outside of His house then in.!  The fire might just be a little hotter and a lot more suffering before the stubble comes.

[princessdi]

Understood, Tinka, and I can see why you fee that way.  people who victimized children are the lowest form of life as far as I am concerned.

That being said, "levels" of sin is not biblical.  The Bible speaks of sins that God hates, but to my knowledge, we(SDAs) don't believe that people will burn any longer the lying than spwomg odscprd amopngst the bretheren, or more to the point molesting children.  ALL sinners will suffer the same fate, therefore all sin is equal in God's eyes.

The belief that there are levels of sin mostly come from Dante's Divine Comedy.  Check out the wikipedia link.  It's a accurate enough for you to get the message.  [urlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy][/url]

No, I am not a believer of Satan having another chance. But I think he thinks thats must be the case if he can take all.

 I think I understand about the "forgiveness" in order to heal of which much has come our way also. I also consider the murder type of "forgiveness" that you give in examples in which is an ultimate thing. But somehow and some way and not sure but I also think there is different levels of sin. but all have to be answered to without repentance. Then there is a type of sin that I feel is way out and beyond in the dark side that is just sickening horrifying. Then the unforgivable sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit. and somehow that is what is so sickening is when an individual might already have done that long before he dies and claims others to take with him. (as Satan does) I know we cannot judge but these I think sometimes might be worse then death.

 I know on the internet it shows different places of molested children I looked at one of these links that a poster on here put on. It stays with you and you want to do something about it and it just does not go away knowing the agony of these children. Guess I am too much of a mother protector of God's little gifts. Just can't hardly cope with their hurt and did not know those sites were there and will not look at it again. Just know that this happens and very sick within a church that had been blessed with truth. One example is the derelict that buried the little girl alive in Florida.  It seems the works of Satan is the hardest to do but know it will come with Judgement.

 Then I realize that these perverts were once babies too. What in the world happened to take them to distruction in this horrible dark way?  I guess it remains one word... choice and that is an ultimate thing. yes it is very sad.

I think "forgiveness" has a lot of different avenues as we hate the acts of intentional inflicted selfish distruction of humans... then there is war and Jesus knows all about that and for what reasons.  Sins of the people..... Before Iraq I saw the pictures of human distruction in the worst ways from Hussein. I wanted him dead. So now I am guilty. I could'nt stand him cutting tongues out and limbs off and throwing people off roofs to their death.

[GRAT]

princessdi, I can usually decipher what you write with add letters or mixed up ones but what is spwomg odscprd , I get the amongst?   

[tinka]

Di,
According to SP some will not suffer but be as they never were. and some will have more stones in their crowns for rewards. That gave me the idea of different levels of sin and according to the same info of Lucifer will be the longest suffering. again, that is sort of a common sense understanding with those statements. Then there is also the division of sinners in vol.5. The just, the Holy, the unjust, the wicked that never came close or could not convert.
Now that took quite a bit of outling all the references that White stated in length .
Every time she quoted that someone would be raised with the just is all that were not under the time of 3angels message like she states about Miller and others before that revelation of truth, I was picking up on that. Next she quotes that the Unjust are in the worst situation of horror because those were the ones that went church all their lives and Jesus says, I never knew you. The Holy are those that followed the lamb without turning to left or right and stayed the path and Blessed are those who  brought in the redeemed. and the wicked are those who some will be as they never were with no hope of eternity. read the whole volume.  I have read every volume, every page, and outlined it all. and she does not change one iota of who and when she refers to those who will be raised and in what era. I found it quite interesting evertime she made a difference in the ones she spoke of. It takes all that reading to find it.

[tinka]

Di,

Just reread my post and discovered I could have made more clear but was so tired and the point where there will be more jewels in some crowns had nothing to do with levels of sin. I just mentioned that so we could see that everyone will have different amount of jewels according to the amount of redeemed they brought in or etc.

Also another point to make clear is that many will be resurrected from the era's where they did not know the last message of our era that is now brought forth in the 3 angels message of rev.

In fact there will be a special Resurrection first of those that gave the last message of truth brought forth just prior to the actual opening raising of the just and righteous. It is a promise given that those plus the ones that crucified Jesus will be raised in this special Resurrection to see all. So therefore those (Holy Ones) raised at that time will be in a "living state" that followed the lamb and brought in the last redeemed of our era along with our now "honest messengers" of which maybe many will not see "death" but changed in a twinkling of an eye.

 So now we can understand why EGW said it was not important to know who those (numbers are) were as we should soon know. When the special Resurrection occurs they will be walking among the "living". That also is why she came right out and mentioned some names of who would be with the 144,000. She mentions several and Mrs. Hastings would be one with them (raised) as others she states the same. Make note that EGW does not say the word OF but with the 144,000. That is a sign of adding to or multiplication of the number meaning included. Of would be subtracting from the number and therefore could possibly conclude the number as literal and then a bumper situation begins of which I do not believe. I do believe the number was literal in the beginning of God's chosen number of sending 12,000 to each tribe or nation --to send messengers to all the (tribes or nations in His last effort) but that number would bring in the Redeemed of last era to multiply as the sand of the seas. and that is His Holy ONES. The ones that carried the whole weight on their shoulders for our era in this whole world. Then in PP book it states that all the redeemed with the 144,000 and called the 144,000 (now symbolic)would be the only ones that could sing the "song" of the redeemed all standing on the sea of glass with Jesus in the Middle with the Martye rs standing closest to Him then  giving the info of positions of different people and different era's were they stand.  I love the finer details that our last day "messenger" we were so fortunate to get expands on . I personally believe EGW will be in that special ressurection also.

Actually you are right in one thing Di, all level of sins will face the same thing in the end but the degree of punishment will be different according to the "Unforgiven" sins.
some churches members will be lost on not what they did --but what they did not do. and some have put their own salvation their first priority into fanaticism or vanity instead of giving of their self in unclaimed benevolence for the Love of God and His will.

corrected and added thought.

[princessdi]

You are right Mrst!  However, let me relieve you.  You don't HAVE to forget.  In fact, remembering in some cases keeps us from again placing ourselves in the line of fire.  I always believe that we eventually get to the place where there is no or very minimal pain associated with the memory.

My father tried to kill me when I was 19. He was under the influence of alcohal, but also, I believe Devil possesed. He had decided that since I was getting married and he could have me, no one could. He even told the judge that. The next morning he didn't remember what he had done. It took me a long time to forgive him, even as a Christian and an even longer time to forget. Now I barely remember, unless someone brings it up. but the forgiveness and forgetfullness can come. I hate the alcohal because it ruined his life, my Mom's marriage and the time my son's could have had with him. I guess this is an example of hating the sin, not the sinner.

[horsethief]

I wonder how Jim Gilley, Molly Steenson and John Lomacang are feeling now? I wonder if they ever took into consideration that their blind devotion to this cult leader would lead them into having to attempt to justify the actions of a sexual predator? They certainly knew before these already proven allegations were made that Tommy Shelton has an appetite for teenage boys. Like before Tommy became production manager. But following that, Tommy was featured on 'KID'S TIME.' 

It's just amazing how the ambition to please a leader of a cult will take some people... To the point of allowing young children to be put at risk for sexual assault.

[Bob Pickle]

On Sept. 1, 2006, John Lomacang led me to believe more than once that he did not know about the allegations against Tommy. Thus far I have not found any reason why not to believe him.

[princessdi]

Was Pastor Lomacang there when TS was there the first time, or just when he replaced Linda?