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[mrst53]

So can this go on for years and years and years?

[horsethief]

There's a minister whom I know who is not SDA, but in my community. He got arrested for lewd and lascivious acts upon 2 of his own granddaughters at his home and at his church, which was just a rented office space. He got arrested in Dec. '09. Pled guilty, then got sentenced this month for 10 years in the state prison. I always thought he was weird. I had SDA friends that would go to his groups and confess all their sins and would cry and fuss about then pledge to be better people, and to be there for each other and all that kind of garbage. They tried to get me to go but I told them to get a life. Turns out this 'minister' had no formal training and was just a big pervert looking to use his religious 'groups' to get a tax break and get some sex out of it.

[princessdi]

See!  Keep on listening to that stillamall voice, Horsethief! 

There's a minister whom I know who is not SDA, but in my community. He got arrested for lewd and lascivious acts upon 2 of his own granddaughters at his home and at his church, which was just a rented office space. He got arrested in Dec. '09. Pled guilty, then got sentenced this month for 10 years in the state prison. I always thought he was weird. I had SDA friends that would go to his groups and confess all their sins and would cry and fuss about then pledge to be better people, and to be there for each other and all that kind of garbage. They tried to get me to go but I told them to get a life. Turns out this 'minister' had no formal training and was just a big pervert looking to use his religious 'groups' to get a tax break and get some sex out of it.

[horsethief]

Well thank you Princess Di. But here is the strange thing about this which has got me totally puzzled... This predator who called himself a minister pleads guilty. So I called my friend who was going to these 'groups' and I told him if he heard anything. Well he starts expressing doubt if it ever happened. I said to him, "It was you that distanced yourself from that pervert and his wife before any of this ever happened." He still says, "Well, I just don't know enough about this. I feel real sorry for him."

That got me furious.. I said, "Don't you feel sorry for the victims of this molestor? I don't feel any pity for him at all. He's got 10 years with the bad boys and that's the same as a death sentence." Then he suggests that I'm being too harsh.

He sounded alot like Tommy's apologists.

[Murcielago]

Horsethief, that is a common reaction. Statistically murderers get much harsher sentences when the victims are adults, lesser when they are children. Why? And in the case of a revered leader in the spiritual world, they can do virtually anything and still have this odd contingent of followers who feel that the perpetrator is above recieving the consequences common to the crime.

[Chrissie]

Horsethief, that is a common reaction. Statistically murderers get much harsher sentences when the victims are adults, lesser when they are children. Why? And in the case of a revered leader in the spiritual world, they can do virtually anything and still have this odd contingent of followers who feel that the perpetrator is above recieving the consequences common to the crime.

I'll never 'get it' either. The more I see it, the less I understand 

Just want them locked up with the 'bad guys'. They don't like rock spiders and will meter out their own form of justice!

I know. I know. I'm no good to work with perpetraters. I'll justs stick with the 'victims' (survivers) and leave the others to someone else, who is more inclined to 'cure' them than I.

[horsethief]

I guess that's the puzzler for me. This friend says "It's so sad. I feel so sorry for him."

That kind of reaction makes my blood boil with pure fury!

"WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN HE'S DAMAGED???"

I want to shout that to my friend.

I guess after I became a father this stuff gets to me more. But even before that I felt almost as strong about it.

What can these people not recognize?

Furthermore, is it wrong of me not to feel any pity for this 'minister' I am telling about? Or for Tommy Shelton?

I mean, we all know that there is no warm welcome in any US prison for anyone who is convicted for crimes against children. We all know what awaits these predators. They know it too. But I want to say to those people who say they "feel sorry" for these sickos... "They deserve what's coming to them! They took that chance!"

Call me harsh. Call me judgemental. But it's not as if they didn't know that this could be the outcome of their crimes.

[Chrissie]

I guess that's the puzzler for me. This friend says "It's so sad. I feel so sorry for him."

That kind of reaction makes my blood boil with pure fury!

"WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN HE'S DAMAGED???"

I want to shout that to my friend.

I guess after I became a father this stuff gets to me more. But even before that I felt almost as strong about it.

What can these people not recognize?

Furthermore, is it wrong of me not to feel any pity for this 'minister' I am telling about? Or for Tommy Shelton?

I mean, we all know that there is no warm welcome in any US prison for anyone who is convicted for crimes against children. We all know what awaits these predators. They know it too. But I want to say to those people who say they "feel sorry" for these sickos... "They deserve what's coming to them! They took that chance!"

Call me harsh. Call me judgemental. But it's not as if they didn't know that this could be the outcome of their crimes.

I HEAR you. I understand where you're coming from.

Until these predators admit their wrongs, do their time and are never left unsupervised with young people again, nothing will ever change.

[tinka]

and...I have no sympathy for it either and same thoughts as you all may already have read. They had no right to take a childs innocence into their dark evils of self sick possessed develish acts of distruction. Some victims if their hands and minds are uplifted to Jesus can overcome but how many can? That is what makes one so angry. The devil actually tries to rob their soul as a child. I hope the victims can understand that and "overcome" that with that thought as they at least can grow and live away from the slaught of the devil with his instruments like TS,  and all that has been used that he has owned.  Actually, as you really think of it--what difference is DS just because he invaded young also and they were "girls".?? All from the same pod if you ask me!

[princessdi]

Once again, I guess I am going to take up the unpopular opinion here.

Our Pastor is doing a series on forgiveness at prayer meeting and it is very good, and not at all what some expect.  He started by telling us what forgiveness "is not".  One of the things it "is not" is diminishing or nopt rememberbing the offensive behavior.  Another is that it does not save one from the consequences of their actions.

Now, apply those two items to this topic.  It is possible to feel sorry and even forgive TS for the terrible things he has done.  But that does not mean that they won't be remembered.   Some people mistakenly believe that forgiveness means acting as if nothing happened, and placing one self in the offenders line of fire, so to speak.....Not so.  it has to be acknowledged if the process healing and forgiveness are to begin.  Neither does forgiveness mean that he should not pay the consequences for his actions.  The acts of mercy and forgiveness says, " I know you have done this terrible thing, and I forgive you, but I will be going to the authorities.  You will still pay the consequences.  Why? Because sin carries it's own consequences from which we cannot be saved. 

Case in point, Adam and Eve.  Jesus still came to redeem even them from their sins.  However, they were still evicted from the garden, till the ground for a living, Eve(and all women) endure child birth with great pain, etc.  Even though they were forgiven, they still paid the consequences for the actions. 

TS is no different.  You can feel sorry, pity, and even his victims, in due process, can forgive him.  That by no means excuses him from any punishment the law requires for his crimes.  TS is still God's child.  God's child with some serious issues, but God's child nonetheless, not personified sin.  This by no means takes away the horror and compassion given to the victims of these horrific crimes, nor is it to be seen as being disloyal to them.  ALL are victims of sin, offender and his victim.

[tinka]

Hmm, will this also be Satan's cry for His sin too? if not, why not? We do not judge or determine when One has went over the point of no return but according to scripture and SP, there is that place of certain dead walking around dead meaning "live" but completely dead and passed over by Holy Spirit no more to return. So what shall we forgive? the devil? as they have been claimed if the Holy Spirit no more is to visit them. Do they cry and plead for their selves in lost condition? Did Judas do that? Will any more do that? Sure is a scarry thing to take liberities to destroy other lives. Does this forgiveness relate to the work of Satan or do we just realize we have been assailed by one of his instruments and without hate try to mend?? I think that is all it is. The "sorry point" only that I see is that they chose to fall into the desires that Satan without doubt took as he observed their own "vanities" or fantacies they prefered. Pretty scarry I would say. all because they do not think anyone or anything sees for records what their sickness is. In that case they never were a believer of God and His record keeping of the books of heaven.  They were never what they claimed in the beginning(evangelists or similar) but just a servant of Satan. So where is this scenario wrong?? I am open for this one.

[Emma]

Maybe we should remember the sin of David in murdering Uzziah in this context.  His repentance, as in Ps 51,is entirely sincere and we know he was forgiven.  He still suffered the fourfold punishment in the death of four of his sons.

[princessdi]

Exactly Emma!  That was my first choice in examples, but the last time I brought up David, I nearly got killed myself!  LOL!!! 

You got the right idea!  By doing any less, we are requiring of another even more than God requires, and that is just not right.

Maybe we should remember the sin of David in murdering Uzziah in this context.  His repentance, as in Ps 51,is entirely sincere and we know he was forgiven.  He still suffered the fourfold punishment in the death of four of his sons.

[princessdi]

Tinka, there is one other thing that forgiveness is not and that is it is not for the offender.  It is for the offended/victim so that they can move on.  It is not even necessary that the offender know that they are forgiven, as in some cases this is not always possible(such as cases where offender dies, etc.).

It is for the offended/victim because as long as them hold on that "thing" that person has power over them, their mind, their actions, their life.  You are most often stuck in the "anger" mode of the process of healing and there are a host of emitional and physical complications from all that turmoil inside.

However, when you forgive them and release that "thing" you are free.  Anger free, hurt free, emotionally and physically free from that bondage. 

Once again, forgiveness is not releasing the offender from their responsibility neither taking away any consequences for their actions. You[general] don't have to return to any relationship with them. You don't even have to speak to them.  In essence, depending the situation, you are not required to place yourself in their line of fire again.  Especially if the person is especially violent or even emotionally and physically damamging to you.  Plus, it is clear indication that they have not changed their ways.  All of this notwithstanding, you can and must still forgive them.  IOW, forgive TS but he still has to go to jail, and live with the consequences of the lives he has damaged. 

BY FIRGUVENESS I DO NOT MEAN RELEASING THEM FROM THEIR RESPONSIBILITES OR CONSEQUENCES.  This would be ultimately even more damaging and dysfunctional.  IOW, Tommy should pay to the full extent of the law. forgive him while he sits in prison for his crimes. 

Your scenario of satan doesn't really work in tihis instance, unless you are one who believes that he even has a chance to repent...................interesting concept, eh?   Hehehe!!! Sorry, Tinks, you know me, I just could nto resist muddying a water a bit.

It is well worth it to study and get a good understanding of the word "forgiveness". We have gotten away from the true meaning. 

Hmm, will this also be Satan's cry for His sin too? if not, why not? We do not judge or determine when One has went over the point of no return but according to scripture and SP, there is that place of certain dead walking around dead meaning "live" but completely dead and passed over by Holy Spirit no more to return. So what shall we forgive? the devil? as they have been claimed if the Holy Spirit no more is to visit them. Do they cry and plead for their selves in lost condition? Did Judas do that? Will any more do that? Sure is a scarry thing to take liberities to destroy other lives. Does this forgiveness relate to the work of Satan or do we just realize we have been assailed by one of his instruments and without hate try to mend?? I think that is all it is. The "sorry point" only that I see is that they chose to fall into the desires that Satan without doubt took as he observed their own "vanities" or fantacies they prefered. Pretty scarry I would say. all because they do not think anyone or anything sees for records what their sickness is. In that case they never were a believer of God and His record keeping of the books of heaven.  They were never what they claimed in the beginning(evangelists or similar) but just a servant of Satan. So where is this scenario wrong?? I am open for this one.

[Gregory]

PrincessDi:  you are on target with both of your posts.

Forgiveness does not require forgetting.

Forgiveness does not remove the consequences.  A person may forgive and still want the offender to recieve the consequences.