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[WillowRun]

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.....

These are our brothers and sisters in Christ.  And we should treat them with dignity and respect.  I am a Christian first then one of Cesar's citizens....   

As always, respectfully
Willow

[horsethief]

No one has suggested stopping them from attending church. But one must use discernment. If it comes to the leadership of the church that an individual among that congregation is willfully breaking the law, then it is up to church's leadership to respond and to inform authorities of the law that is being broken and who is involved. Again, our congregations cannot be seen as a haven for criminals.

[christian]

No one has suggested stopping them from attending church. But one must use discernment. If it comes to the leadership of the church that an individual among that congregation is willfully breaking the law, then it is up to church's leadership to respond and to inform authorities of the law that is being broken and who is involved. Again, our congregations cannot be seen as a haven for criminals.

You really don't understand do you? The time will come when you will be the supposed criminal and law breaker and then your fellow bretheren will turn you in to the authorites as you deem right. You will find out one day, by the grace of God, that you are a law breaker who God allowes to sit in church without penalty and without turning you in.

[tinka]

We also have to realize that church is the best place to hide --again using the sympathies of loving christians to which we all have that weakness. We must abide by rules as the immagrants have one thing in mind. --What's best for them and not us who pay the bills and take away from our own oppressed.

and as yet we are not in taking the mark of the beast yet. It is so "justificational" of how one uses one point to make another right. Sick

[horsethief]

Christian clearly has the entitlement mentality. That so-called "rich" people should pay for everyone and everything and yet believes they are the focus of evil in our world today. Perfect Michael Moore disciple.

[christian]

Christian clearly has the entitlement mentality. That so-called "rich" people should pay for everyone and everything and yet believes they are the focus of evil in our world today. Perfect Michael Moore disciple.

Not true Horsethief, I simply don't believe everyone should be paying the rich. There are some foreigners that I believe are illegal in church (no actually I know she is illegal), Horsethief should I turn them in to the authority. She has five children and one of the children has not started school yet, I will act on your superior wisdom how speak you?

[princessdi]

I don't believe that christian has an "entitlement" mentality.  We are a democracy and democracies are funded by their taxes.  Our system as always been one of percentages, being those who have more, pay more.  We are running into problems because everyone, especially those who have more are trying to get away with paying as little as possible.  How are we supposed to pay for things to get done?

Now, the problem is also that everyone has a different idea on what that money should be paying for, and I agree we will have to do a better job of managing our countries finances.  Too many selfish, heartless people on one side, too many bleeeding hearts on the other, and toooo many pet projects all around.  We have got to get it together.

[mrst53]

Christian,
I don't know what I would do in your situation. Is there anyway you can help her get her green card without the wrong people finding out how long she has been here? Is there a lawyer you can talk to about this. I think I would try to get involved-much to my husband's dismay- he hates it when I get involved in other people's problems. We argue about that more than any thing else.  But I am not one to sit back and do nothing if I can maybe do something....
I am being faced with something similar but not as legal... I deliver "meals on wheels" which is a government sponsored program. I meet many lonely,hurting,old people. Sometimes, it's emotional, other times it's physical- maybe it's both. I have offered to pray to alleve their hurts and they have said yes and when I leave they are happier. It got back to my boss and he told me, I could not pray with them any longer, because if their families complained that I was praying,then the government funding could be stopped and everyone would lose. I asked my boss, what happens if they ask for prayer? He said, I could not pray with them then, but I could tell them, I would pray during the day for them- What's the difference??? My driver is devout Christian and he says I answer to a Higher power and have to do what He says... so I guess I do what I have to do and hope for the best and keep my mouth shut. What do you guys think?

[princessdi]

Wow, mrst!  That seems like a dilemma, but you believe in the power of prayer.  Keep on believing in that power of prayer!   

[horsethief]

Christian... That would be your decision. I am guessing that you're not a church leader, but I could be wrong. Our churches should not become havens or shelters for people who are involved in illegal activities. A congregation can help meet their basic needs, but it is the responsibility of a congregation's leadership to inform the individual who is involved in illegal activities that they can't expect the church or it's members to shield them from legal authorities. If they persist in staying with the church after that, then the church leadership should consider informing the authorities in the interest of the safety of it's members.

[tinka]

I can tell you personally of an experience with this very thing. A Spanish girl married to an American that was friends with one of our daughters came and asked us if we could help with a whole family that was getting established here for just about 4-5 months. OF course we were set up with extra housing and plenty of room. 3 beautiful children we started in school and they promised to work some for their keep.

Here is what transpired and we eventually found out. They had gotten previous people to donate much going from church to church. What all of a sudden appeared one day is they brought home a car that their friend that came and took them out of town when they come back was driving. That alluded to a fact of wonderment on how they could drive if they did not have their credentials yet. The language barrare was difficult to ask questions and as we showed our licence they shook their heads and said yes, yes they had one and pulled out theirs which was a little different.  Things were not adding up. We asked the friend to come back and interpret what was going on. Finally it was discovered that they had much money stashed from all contributions of people from other churches as they made the rounds   Plenty of clothes and we were taking them to the grocery store buying their groceries. Discovered they went to New York on one of their trips to buy their credentials and the reason we were so interested in the car was because they lived on our property and discovered they had no insurance to drive and we told them that it was against the law to drive with no insurance and they said they did not care or would buy insurance. We told them do not drive again or they would have to leave. Then we found from another Adventist that clued us in that other people threw them out for the same reasons when they found out. They did not care and as a growing fear that as soon as an accident or whatever happened maybe a ticket for speeding the address would come back to us. As soon as they realized we were up to them they left immediately in their car leaving all their belongings that other church members gave them.  Finally someone came and asked for their belonging of clothes as they were being sent back. They were picked up and the last we heard someone from a northern church told them they had to go back and they turned them in. One day we got a letter pleading with us to bring and sponsor them back that they lived the best they ever did with us. But they had one thing in mind. To get everything the best they could illegally for theirselves and we never answered them back. There were so many problems even beyond that -that we discovered. They could chance the illegal but we sure would not in our farm and business. So again the experience of giving sympathies to wrong situations is a great big factor with Adventists or anyone Christian cause sympathy is the the factor for them. They really lived with the feeling that everyone should "spread the wealth to them". and the church did and so did we even to their asking for new furniture as ours was used  The furniture they could not take back so we then donated to community service. So a woman with 5 children is not the responsibility for the taking away from church priority of their own first to aid and abetting illegal opportunist. We have to learn to discern about our sympathies.

[princessdi]

Horsethief, I have to tell you that you make a whole lot of sense.  This atually was covered in last weeks SS lesson regarding respecting the leaders and law of the land. We always have to do the right thing, and trust God that all will work out for the good.

Christian... That would be your decision. I am guessing that you're not a church leader, but I could be wrong. Our churches should not become havens or shelters for people who are involved in illegal activities. A congregation can help meet their basic needs, but it is the responsibility of a congregation's leadership to inform the individual who is involved in illegal activities that they can't expect the church or it's members to shield them from legal authorities. If they persist in staying with the church after that, then the church leadership should consider informing the authorities in the interest of the safety of it's members.

[horsethief]

I met and dated a young lady from Brazil a few years ago. We hit it off real well too. I asked her what her status was in the USA? She explained how she was here on a Visa. I accepted that. Come to find out, her visa had expired and after a few more explanations, I found out she was here illegally. She explained that she was sure that God didn't mind this because her intentions were good, etc. I told her that I disagreed with her. That the laws that the USA has concerning immigration are not repressive and if her and I were on our way to becoming a permanent couple, then we needed to abide by the law. That would mean her returning to Brazil, then getting engaged, then her returning as my fiance or bride, legally. Well, she wouldn't go back to Brazil and I didn't feel right about her breaking the law. Things dissolved after that.

She had that entitled mentality though.That the hard work and success of another person was something she deserved and was entitled to...

It don't work that way

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

In some countries there is no freedom of religion or worship. Such as Cuba and North Korea. People who flee those countries and their oppressive regimes are considered refugees. Such is not the case with Mexico, Canada, Ireland or any of the Central and South American countries. Communist China doesn't seem to mind Christians now because they are good for business.

I will respectfully disagree with the premise that "Freedom of Religion" in Mexico, Canada, Ireland and Central & South America translates into "religious tolerance", particularly at bar. Religious Liberty and other departments at the GC have their hands full of issues that require intervention, even here in the United States of America. And, one can safely assume that since REAL adventists oppose joining unions, and we know that unions will continue to be a growing problem as eschatology moves forward, not to mention the Sunday Laws and a host of other laws that will destroy the "wall of seperation" that tolerance will quickly erode in the United States. It will not matter whether you or your brethren are legal or illegal, you will face the same challenges ahead, whether here, Mexico of Cuba. And believe me, China is hardly tolerant. Try to share the Desire of Ages or a King James Version of the Bible with a Government official and just see how long your visa remains active. 

Have you planned your retreat yet for the Time of trouble such as never has been? Or picked a cave? Or are you planning to survive the holocaust ahead with "compromise"? Faith in a time of crisis is already exercised and practiced over and over again and there will be no room for compromise, creaping or otherwise!!!

Practice your Faith NOW while there remains what little tolerance there is or get ready for a very hot ending.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[horsethief]

We all know that there are a lot of countries and cultures where the word "church" means none other than catholic and those who choose not to worship like everyone else are looked upon or treated with disdain. However, that does not make it acceptable for a person who is experiencing this in their country to illegally enter the USA. The USA has always encouraged legal immigration.

Illegal immigration into the USA is a crime. The SDA church and it's members have a duty to our government to point out crimes of this nature.