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[princessdi]

Why do you believe that God has only so many ways He resolves an issue?  That is not even biblical. We have 66 books where it shows God dealing with people(individuals or a group) on a case by case basis.  He definitely is not obligated to allow anyone to see the repentance and/or restoration of any one of His children.  Especially to satisfy those who  are only interested in seeing them destroyed by their sins, and not the least bit interested in their restoration as a brother or sister in Christ.  He didn't(doesn't) do you like that, right?  How many of your sins, forgiveness, and restoration from that sin has He kept quiet?......rhetorical question only. 

David's sins were made public because David himself brought them to light by turning them into Psalms(songs). David was not obligated to do so, neither is Danny.  We see the blessings that have come from David's Testimonies.  That might not be the path God wants for Danny.   God did not, in more modoren slang, bust David out.  We know about them now, because somebody wrote about them...sometimes later...but those Psalms were written as David "went through". 

In such a public matter, public support is more than fitting, and the internet is as good a place as any for public support.

But there are certainly other ways. For those who like to compare Danny to David, David wrote his public apology into the national hymnal. If Danny were to emulate David's response, he could think of producing a special CD containing a song of apology ... with all proceeds from the sale of it going to a victims' fund, not his pocket.

I would be happy to promote the sale of such a CD.

[Bob Pickle]

Di, according to the Bible, confession is an absolute requirement for forgiveness of sin. And sins of a public character should be publicly confessed:

True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. (SC 38)

David's sins were made public because David himself brought them to light by turning them into Psalms(songs).

Not true. Before Nathan ever went to David, we are told that David's sin became known:

For the sake of Israel also there was a necessity for God to interpose. As time passed on, David's sin toward Bathsheba became known, and suspicion was excited that he had planned the death of Uriah. The Lord was dishonored. He had favored and exalted David, and David's sin misrepresented the character of God and cast reproach upon His name. It tended to lower the standard of godliness in Israel, to lessen in many minds the abhorrence of sin; while those who did not love and fear God were by it emboldened in transgression. (PP 720)

Similarly, God has been dishonored and His character misrepresented, the standard of godliness in Adventism lowered, and the abhorrence of sin lessened in many minds. Those who do not love and fear God have been emboldened in molesting children, divorcing without biblical grounds, committing incest, receiving kickbacks, and using donations to personally profit.

Now if Danny as horsethief claims will never apologize, if he is unwilling to commit his repentance and apology to music like David did, then may no one ever again dare compare Danny Shelton to King David, since the two have very little in common.

[Johann]

It is quite interesting that most of our media these days are carrying stories connected with a similar tale within the Lutheran Church. Seems like new happenings occur with every newscast. There are both differences and similarities to what AT has been dealing with. In our country the Evangelical Lutheran Church is the official state religion although there is religious freedom for any other religion.

Because the Lutheran Church has not been completely open and revealed everything about sexual mistakes of pastors and officials, members of our government are talking about leaving the Church.

A former Bishop of the Lutheran Church died a couple of years ago. More and more is now being revealed about his life and conduct. Seems like he was running a cult within his church where many people adored and followed him in everything. Seems like he was a super salesman who could convince the majority of people that he was completely innocent of any accusation against him.

About 1996 women came forward accusing him of sexual misconduct towards them when they had come to him as their pastor for counseling. Just last night we saw a rerun of TV interviews with him from 1996 where he denied any such charges as a falsehood. One of his argument was that when he heard those accusations he had checked his official diary and the name of one particular female accuser was not even listed there. It sounded as if he would have made a list of all of his sins, and since those sins were not listed he was innocent. The strange thing about it is that at that time members of his "cult" accepted his explanation as the plain truth.

There seems to be many similarities in how he was treated by his adherents to the wording and arguments we have read here on AT by Danny and Tommy Shelton's defenders.

About a week ago a daughter of the former bishop appeared before a meeting of pastors and leaders in the Lutheran Church, and since then a report of her statements have reached the media. She made it plain that her own father had molested her sexually, his own daughter, since she was a little girl. It appears like she did this to support the women who had, at first, notified other church officials in vain.

Today my sister-in-law told me that she knows the widow of the condemned bishop because she is a neighbor to her sister-in-law. She tells me that both this woman and her daughters are exceptionally loving persons and devoted Christians.

There is an uprising in the Lutheran Church these days. People are demanding greater openness and public confessions. One Lutheran parson declared recently that he believed confessions to a pastor should be confidential and that the pastor should not reveal molestation of children to the police. The media reveal that he had a meeting with the present Bishop today, and that the Bishop convinced  him that he was mistaken, so in the evening news this pastor declared that he understands he has to follow the laws of his country.

In these discussions Lutheran church leaders have also declared that the standards of a Christian Church stands far above the laws of the land, which means that even if the Supreme Court clears a clergyman as innocent he still has to stand before the Throne of God and that the Church must judge a pastor according to a higher moral code than the demands of the civil laws of the land.

It there anything we can learn from these present tumults within the Lutheran Church of Iceland?

[horsethief]

I find it offensive that there is a comparison of the Biblical David to Danny Shelton. I don't hold Danny beyond redemption, but he has shown no remorse for his actions. David was terribly remorseful for his sins surrounding Bathsheba. Danny thinks he was acting in accordance to scripture by living in sin.

[princessdi]

God is dishonored each time anyone of us sins.  That is not exclusive to those who make the 6 o'clock news.  There is someone who witnesses most of our sins, for which we are not being a positive or even decent witness for Him.

You keep coming back to that one incident, but that is not the only time David was wrong, and sinned.  We know that from the Psalms themselves.  But what you say is true. I am sure that sin was defintiely public, as it in volved taking the man's wife and getting her pregnant, i am sure somebody noticed her at the palace.  We can add to that David's propensity for collecting wicves and concubines(sp).   So it was the very nature of the sin itself that was public.  

Now this still does not mean that Danny's repentance has to be public.  The Bible also says to "confess your sins to God and your faults to one another".  The other problem with this is that the only "sin" or isntance of "sins" for Danny was that entire dumping his wife for a  younger woman, mid-life crisis, losing his mind type thing.....I believe he does owe an apology to Linda, Brandy, the 3ABN board, GC, the 3ABN supporters for not living up to the ministry he was preaching.  However, all else he has been accused of was brought to the "light" and there is some argument was to whether a whole lot of it is true.  Those "faults" were not public until some decided that since he tossed Linda, every breath he breathes must be iniquity.  If he truly misappropriated, laundered and out right stole funds, then he does owe an apology to his supporters and should pay the legal ramifications.

That being said, the thing you keep asking for is that you, personally get to witness "Danny get his", and that is not your place.  You have no right, and it is not a wise thing to ask.  This is not something you should be harboring in your heart.  

Bob, you did know they weren't going to come to this thread and express support for the vicitms while they maintain that there are no victims, and proclaim innocence that even TS does not.  Those who come here to claim Ts is innocent get that from somehwere.  Some of them still don't know him personally, or at least didnt' during the time of his offenses, but they make the claim with too much authority for it to simple be their own personal opinion.  

Di, according to the Bible, confession is an absolute requirement for forgiveness of sin. And sins of a public character should be publicly confessed:

True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. (SC 38)

Not true. Before Nathan ever went to David, we are told that David's sin became known:

For the sake of Israel also there was a necessity for God to interpose. As time passed on, David's sin toward Bathsheba became known, and suspicion was excited that he had planned the death of Uriah. The Lord was dishonored. He had favored and exalted David, and David's sin misrepresented the character of God and cast reproach upon His name. It tended to lower the standard of godliness in Israel, to lessen in many minds the abhorrence of sin; while those who did not love and fear God were by it emboldened in transgression. (PP 720)

Similarly, God has been dishonored and His character misrepresented, the standard of godliness in Adventism lowered, and the abhorrence of sin lessened in many minds. Those who do not love and fear God have been emboldened in molesting children, divorcing without biblical grounds, committing incest, receiving kickbacks, and using donations to personally profit.

Now if Danny as horsethief claims will never apologize, if he is unwilling to commit his repentance and apology to music like David did, then may no one ever again dare compare Danny Shelton to King David, since the two have very little in common.

[princessdi]

Yes he was very remorseful....once he was caught..............Danny hasn't wrote any Psalms we don't knwo that he is remorseful or not...whether he has confessed or not.  You can't assume because you have seen or heard it, it hasn't been done.

I find it offensive that there is a comparison of the Biblical David to Danny Shelton. I don't hold Danny beyond redemption, but he has shown no remorse for his actions. David was terribly remorseful for his sins surrounding Bathsheba. Danny thinks he was acting in accordance to scripture by living in sin.

[Bob Pickle]

I find it offensive that there is a comparison of the Biblical David to Danny Shelton.

So do I.

Yes he was very remorseful....once he was caught..............Danny hasn't wrote any Psalms we don't knwo that he is remorseful or not...whether he has confessed or not.  You can't assume because you have seen or heard it, it hasn't been done.

I can personally tell you that Danny has never confessed to me the wrong he has personally done to me, as Scripture requires. I have received not one hint of an apology.

[Bob Pickle]

However, all else he has been accused of was brought to the "light" and there is some argument was to whether a whole lot of it is true.

Please be specific as to what there is question about.

Bob, you did know they weren't going to come to this thread and express support for the vicitms while they maintain that there are no victims, and proclaim innocence that even TS does not.

No, I did not know.

[horsethief]

We can kick around our notions about repentance and true repentance. But it's pointless to ponder Danny Shelton ever seeking it. He is the leader of a cult where his followers have shown absolute submission and servitude to him. Historically, a cult leader never admits guilt or wrongdoing. When met with opposition of any sort, they work tirelessly to counter that opposition. They live in a state of constant fear that their opposition is gaining on them and getting stronger. They lash out easily at the people around them and never miss the opportunity to degrade and personally attack the people who will not agree with them. Yet they never miss the opportunity at self promotion and enlarging themselves in any way, especially with influential people.

[horsethief]

King David was a man of fairness and swift justice. I am absolutely 100 percent certain that if there were child rapists among his kingdom, then he would have swiftly had them executed and he would have made a public example of it as well.

[Murcielago]

True, horsethief. And they often try to associate themselves with people of influence and power to prove their credibility, but the influence and social standing of those who support a cult leader is not a measure of that leader's moral rectitude. Jim Jones counted as his friends and supporters, the president of the United States, the governor of California, the mayor of San Francisco, and a great variety of legislators and business people. The followers of the Baghwan Shree Rahjneesh were largely highly educated and very wealthy people.

The continued adherence of fanatical followers is just par for that course. To this day there are followers of David Koresh who believe in his inevitable return. Jones' people followed him to the grave. The followers of the Baghwan gave him everything they owned and watched him enjoy a fleet of jets, expensive cars, and much more, while they lived in tiny rooms in prefab units. Why do people do that? It utterly defies all logic and reason, but in this current situation we have been afforded a unique opportunity to study and observe these cultists as we interact with them. Perhaps we can emerge from this situation enlightened in our understanding of how their minds work by taking this opportunity to study and observe them.

[horsethief]

Murcielago: You ask "Why do people do that?" One reason might be that some people find it easy to adhere themselves to a leader or a movement who makes their decisions for them and makes provision for them because to do that for themselves is just too complicating.

Then there are the opportunists who attach themself to this this leader or movement for the sake of self promotion. The leader(s) like these types as long as they don't threaten to destabilize the hierarchy. They can point to them as one of their success examples.

SDA people can easily and deceptively fall into these cults. Many SDA folk believe that the writings of Ellen White are equal to the Bible. They conveniently ignore her statements to the contrary and her challenges to her readers to contrast and compare and decide for themselves. The people who don't want to think for themselves are the one's who usually fall into these cult movements. They like the comfort in believing that the thinking and pondering has already been done for them.

[tinka]

I agree and what I see is some people from the instant they are born are trained to be dependant by the characters of non Christian parents. Most are selfish, domineering, and arrogant with abusive and wrong application of punishment because children that get in the way of the parents time and social lives and mis applied training or no training. A child raised to this most prevalent and common sins of non christian parents make now grown dependant people look to complete guidance from elsewhere to survive. They look to other people, books of learning where non christian professors take again the same pattern (where their own common sense is not available). They have been stripped of their own identity, their own Independence of well being and satisfactions. They have had to comply to someone else always from the time they have been born instead of a parent only showing loving compassion and interest in the child's accomplishments and training them to create, accomplish, and be in dependant on God only for their answers. If a child is not trained to be in dependant they will always under any circumstances whether they know religion or not be dependant on someone else. They will always look for guidance that fits their upbringing and therefore how do you change it?? Only God knows and will contend with it. But that is the pattern I see. whether right or wrong remains. An independant person will seek their own truth for their own knowlege. In order to do that their mind is always open to factual facts and in no way be led and having discernment of right things. I suspect that discernment is the biggest and most important thing we can have to be saved in God's kingdom and without it "No Hope".  Discernment is led by the Holy Spirit if you let it.  Looking to people does not give it.  This is the only way the Holy Spirit can work with a independent person and not a dependant person that can only follow human characters that use their evil self importance of "control" to others. They scoop up these dependants for their selfish egos of overpowering others that give them back the praise they think they are so worthy of by all means they can and "money" is their biggest come on. What a trait to follow after the Devil.

[princessdi]

As much as we would like to, Horsethief, we lack the knowledge and especially the authority to make this determination.  I know it is very difficult with all the outward appearance making a convincing argument,  but we just can't make the determination, it is not our place.  Oh I believe Danny is guilty of much also, but I just can't condemn him, especially when God has not.  I am just as frustrated when I see those supporters defending the actions of TS, and DS to help cover up those deplorable actions, but I have to stop and think about what god has saved me from, what He still puts with from me, and I can only pattern my response after God's.

I agreee with David being a man of fairness and swift justice........he definteiy showed that when Nathan approached him with his own situation......he wanted to punish the master who took the servant's only sheep........but he neglected to see himself in this picture until pointed out to him.

PLEASE don't get me wrong...David is one of my favorites Bible characters.  We only like him so much becuase we know.......the rest of the story....even the end of it.  However, when we read these things about about and what he did, imagine being the people of that time.  Not only the situation with Bathsheba, but the fact that even though a great warrior king, he was just inept as a father to those many, many, many children.......you think people didn't see that?  One of his sons raping his own sister, defiling her for marriage the rest of the her life.  He never could handle Absalom
who eventually sent him running......not all of those mighty foes around him....but his own son............Now imagine not knowing the end of that story, being there when everyone found out that Bathsheba was pregnant, that David was a wimp and did not defend his own daughter. 

Imagine it....David's many offenses and after each one a new song begging for God's forgiveness to learn at church........LOL!!!  I can see some folk refusing to sing.  Something like folks who get rebaptized...several times...........LOL!!!

We can kick around our notions about repentance and true repentance. But it's pointless to ponder Danny Shelton ever seeking it. He is the leader of a cult where his followers have shown absolute submission and servitude to him. Historically, a cult leader never admits guilt or wrongdoing. When met with opposition of any sort, they work tirelessly to counter that opposition. They live in a state of constant fear that their opposition is gaining on them and getting stronger. They lash out easily at the people around them and never miss the opportunity to degrade and personally attack the people who will not agree with them. Yet they never miss the opportunity at self promotion and enlarging themselves in any way, especially with influential people.

[horsethief]

Princess Di...  All those words yet you really aren't saying much...