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[Bob Pickle]

Regarding King Saul:

1 Samuel 10:6  And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

1 Samuel 10:9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

The language used here indicates that King Saul was genuinely converted, born again. This would mean that he later apostatized.

I think King Saul decided that he didn't want to live forever with Jesus, and God sadly respects that choice.

1 Samuel 15:23  For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

I don't see how that can be said of someone who is still bound for heaven.

Those who believe in once saved always saved usually tell me that in the OT things were different, that people could "lost their salvation" back then but not now because of the gift of the Holy Spirit. That explanation has never made sense to me.

[Bob Pickle]

Regarding Judas:

John 10:28, 29  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

This passage is the one often quoted to support the idea that we cannot choose to be lost after we have accepted Christ. If that idea were really true, it is hard to see how Adam and Eve could have chosen to be lost when they sinned in Eden.

But at any rate, note that the ones that are in Jesus' hand and that cannot be taken out are the ones that His Father has given Him.

John 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

This verse explicitly says that Judas was one of those whom the Father had given Christ, and yet it also explicitly says that Judas is lost. Therefore, though no man took Judas out of Jesus' hand, Judas took himself out. Thus John 10:28 cannot really be used to support the idea of once saved always saved.

[childoftheking]

Bob, My first thought about Saul when it was brought up that the "witch" said Saul would be with his sons was that spirit mediums are not well known for telling the truth but for lying or twisting the truth and just because she identified the spirit as Samuel didn't mean that he really was Samuel or that she or the spirit told the truth about anything. But in this case she told the truth about Saul's fate in a sarcastic way as he and his sons might all have been buried together (that is in the family plot) or at least they were all dead together - not necessarily conscious in death but all dead.

[Murcielago]

But that isn't what the Bible says in either passage. Acts says that he used the money to buy a field "and there he fell headlong..." rupturing his abdomen and dying. Matthew says that he threw the money into the temple and hung himself, after which the priests used that money to buy a field. There are also various apocryphal accounts, including the Book of Judas which says that the other 11 disciples stoned him to death.

We can speculate, but none of us has any knowledge of the salvation or loss of Judas or Saul.

If Judas hung himself and then the rope broke and the body fell, his abdomen could rupture and the dogs could eat him. This is how Desire of Ages harmonizes the two accounts of Judas' death.

[Bob Pickle]

There are a number of possibilities. One old suggestion was that Judas did arrange to buy the field before he took the money he was going to use and threw it in the temple, and that the priests then completed the transaction. I think I've seen other possible explanations, but I'm rusty on that one.

[tinka]

A Religious Fraud.--The case of Judas has been presented to me as a lesson for all. Judas was with Christ through the entire period of the Saviour's public ministry. He had all that Christ could give him. Had he used his capabilities with earnest diligence, he could have accumulated talents. Had he sought to be a blessing, instead of a questioning, criticizing, selfish man, the Lord would have used him to advance His kingdom. But Judas was a speculator. He thought that he could manage the finances of the church, and by his sharpness in business get gain. He was
                                                                            1102
divided in heart. He loved the praise of the world. He refused to give up the world for Christ. He never committed his eternal interests to Christ. He had a superficial religion, and therefore he speculated upon his Master and betrayed Him to the priests, being fully persuaded that Christ would not allow Himself to be taken.  {5BC 1101.7}
     Judas was a religious fraud. He held up a high standard for others, but he himself utterly failed to reach the Bible standard. He did not bring the religion of Christ into his life. How many today are, like Judas, betraying their Lord? Those who follow dishonest practices in business, sacrifice Christ for gain and reveal a wisdom that is after Satan's order. Speculation for selfish gain will not be brought into the life of the man who has that faith which works by love and purifies the soul (Letter 40, 1901).  {5BC 1102.1}

[tinka]

Afterward the money which Judas had cast down before the priest was used for the purchase of a public burial ground. "And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day."  {3SP 126.2}
     If any testimony had been needed to prove the innocence of Jesus, it was given in the confession of Judas. Not only was it an evidence of the innocence of the Saviour, but the event was a direct fulfillment of prophecy. In prophetic vision Zechariah had looked down the ages and seen the trial of God's dear Son. The act of Judas is thus described: "And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter; a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord."  {3SP 126.3}

[mrst53]

As I stated before, Judas believed that Jesus was going to set up his Kingdom on earth, but Judas was not alone. Many of Jesus' followers also believed that. Did the other deciples believe that too? We don't know, but they probably had their doubts about a Kingdom in Heaven. Judas was just trying to force Jesus to create his Kingdom. Yes, he was wrong, but the definition of remorseful  is- moral anguish arising from repentance for past mideeds. If this is a good definition from the Greek and I haven't found my books to check, then I would say- Judas repented for what he did to Jesus. Therefore, I would say he went to Heaven.

[childoftheking]

Or was he just tormented because things didn't work out as he had hoped and he couldn't stand the results of his actions? Is there a difference between Godly sorrow that he had caused Jesus to suffer and die or being sorry that Christ wasn't setting up an earthly kingdom and that because of his own actions Judas's wished-for king was dead - forever putting an end to his hopes?

[princessdi]

Ok so did I miss something.  I know Judas tried to give the money back, however, where did he repent?  He did that because he was scared things didn't go the way he planned.  I agree that he never thought Jesus would let them take him like that, and meant to force his hand.   I would even venture to say that Judas is the only one who really understood who Jesus was, he just had the wrong expectations and motives.  however, Judas still misunderstood Jesus' mission.  We know the other disciples had the wrong idea because they were busy arguing over who would be first in "the kingdom".  I also believe that all of the Jews had the wrong expectations, as they were only looking for deliverance from the Romans, a king and/or warrior who would deliver them from bondage yet one more time.

Sorry to be off topic.

As I stated before, Judas believed that Jesus was going to set up his Kingdom on earth, but Judas was not alone. Many of Jesus' followers also believed that. Did the other deciples believe that too? We don't know, but they probably had their doubts about a Kingdom in Heaven. Judas was just trying to force Jesus to create his Kingdom. Yes, he was wrong, but the definition of remorseful  is- moral anguish arising from repentance for past mideeds. If this is a good definition from the Greek and I haven't found my books to check, then I would say- Judas repented for what he did to Jesus. Therefore, I would say he went to Heaven.

[mrst53]

The Greek New Testament Lexicon- states that to repent is to be remorseful, to turn about, to turn away from. I think he was sorry he had turned Jesus in and that Jesus was condemned to die. He never expected that. For that he repented and maybe he repented for not believing in Jesus,that we will not know, until the end of time.

[Bob Pickle]

The problem is that Jesus said:

John 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So if Jesus said that Judas was lost, that pretty much settles it.

2 Corinthians 7:10  For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

There are a lot of remorseful folks in the pen. They're sorry they got caught, sorry about the results, not sorry for the sin. And that's what bothered Judas. He knew he was in big trouble.

If he truly repented, he would never have hung himself. Peter fell in a moment of weakness while Judas' deed was premeditated. Peter sorrowed for the sin and found pardon.

[ex3abnemployee]

I read the title of this topic and just have one question. Who is Will Pope? 

[Adam]

I read the title of this topic and just have one question. Who is Will Pope? 

LOL!

[childoftheking]

Ah, what a gift you have for seeing the lighter side of things. What a blessing a sense of humor can be.