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[ex3abnemployee]

Duane, I feel for you. Will you be allowed to testify in the trials in Virginia in July?

Don't know yet. I've been told it's a possibility.

[tinka]

That is so right and one thing other is that we have to be so careful not to place our sympathy in the wrong directions. The story of Aron and sympathizers was enough lesson to read. We seem to all care for the sinners in our "hope" of "planting the seeds" but when it comes to the "ones totally against the law of God and Society, one must stand up to do as you just posted. That is why it has been so abhorrent for ones to "claim innocent" until proven guilty when the victims and evidence are what did not go unseen or are there. I totally believe the "innocent until proven" with the lack of witness and evidence. In this case both is there before the arrest.  That was too much for protectors to deny, it was too long for family to protect. Now the protection is to "protect the pew money" and their   feed. so of course they had to deny it all as reaching fingers will connect. You know I just wished this whole thing wasn't so. I think DS does have some good but he can't control the wrong direction of his "sympathy" for love of family more then "God". I am sure it was a test too as he has lost much and some that remains to be seen. Now you can detect a little of my sympathy. (smile) Its in us all......Sympathy--the devil can count on it and uses it to the worst devestations in our lives.

[Gregory]

Two of the major legal systems in the world are English Common Law which generally forms the basis of the legal system in the United States.  In much of Continental Europe and in Latin America their legal systems are substantially based upon the Napoleonic Code.

NOTE:  The legal system of the State of LA has a substantial basis in the Napoleonic Code.   There laws are modified by the U.S. Constitution when that becomes a factor.

Under English Common Law, guilt and/or innocence is generally determined in a legal proceeding or trial and the person is considered innocent prior to a determination of the court that the individual is guilty.  Of course, trials do not generally take place prior to a determination (A Grand Jury is one method used to bring to trial.) that the evidence is sufficient to raise a question of innocence and it is appropriate to bring the person to trial to determine if the person is guilty and to apply the appropriate judgment in the event guilt is determined.

The Napoleonic Code differs from English Common Law in many ways—although it does have its positive points.    Wikipedia makes this statement in part:  “ . . . the Napoleonic Code was criticized for de facto presumption of guilt, particularly in common law countries.”

The above is a very simplistic statement on the subject.  Let me ask: Would rather live in a country with a legal system based upon English Common Law, or in one based upon the Napoleonic Code?

[Murcielago]

And I understand that in Canada, Quebec law is based on Napoleonic Code, whereas the rest of Canada is based on English Common Law.

[Johann]

Such a textbook generalization can also be misunderstood. What is the basis of any law? British? Napolean?

The Icelandic founding fathers gathered in 930 to establish a new parliament. They were pagans and based their laws on common sense. A farmer had killed his slave, and they took the act seriously. They decided that nobody had the right to take the life of another human being, even if he was a slave. As a punishment this farmer had to relinquish the best part of his farmland to the common good of their country. It had good pastures for their horses and provided plenty of wood to heat up their lodging and cooking while assembled, so this is now one of the unique historic places established by the United Nations where thousands of foreign tourist come every year.

So when the American Constitution was written these Icelandic farmers had been making laws for about 800 years. Some of the most unreasonable laws came with the advancement of Christianity when redheaded females - probably of Irish ancestry - were hunted down as witches, declared guilty by the Christian bishops. At the lake where "criminals", were drowned a sign tells us the worst period was after the Lutheran Church became our state religion. We have passed the time when Columbus discovered America. Sad story, in spite of the pastors preaching justification by faith based on the epistles of Paul in the churches of those days.

Today our principle is that the accused is innocent until it is proven that he has broken a law. But just like in the United States a judge has the power to place the person under arrest immediately if there is a good reason. In many cases this does not quite make the accused innocent until proven guilty by a court case, does it? Why was there a bond of $80.000 on Tommy Shelton if he was considered completely innocent?

Several bank managers have been placed in confinement here in Iceland when it became clear how they had cleared out the assets of their banks with loans to themselves with no other security than worthless papers, thus causing the present financial crisis. They were declared guilty pending a later judgment, in spite of their right to be innocent until proven guilty. It was essential that they be under surveillance to prevent them from destroying evidence and fleeing to havens for criminals. Now some of these men have been released again pending trial, but they will be arrested again if they attempt to leave the country.

Innocent until proven guilty seems like such a lofty doctrine that some use like a crown of glory. It is like saying, "Our system is better than yours because this is what we believe in."

When I studied American Government in an American college we learned how the president of the United States can avoid the limitations of the American Constitution - legally. But that's another story. Where is the perfect system? Do we find it anywhere in this sinful world?

[Bob Pickle]

Can a policeman accuse you of speeding and write you a ticket if you haven't first been convicted in a court of law, since you are innocent until proven guilty?

[Gregory]

Johan:  You have raised several interesting points, and I am going to respond.

1) I am not going to hold one system as better than another.  The application of the system often fails to live up to the lofty thoughts of the system itself.  So, in application the system often fails.

2) "Innocent until proven guilty" is simplly a legal term.  It relates to the statute and a judicial decision that the statute has been violated.

3) You asked:  

Why was there a bond of $80.000 on Tommy Shelton if he was considered completely innocent?

 In your question I think you fail to understand the issue of bail bond as used in the United States.  The bail bond is NOT set on the basis of guilt or innocence.  Rather it is set on:  1) The resources available to the defendent.  2) The likelyhood that the defendent would flee the area.  3) The costs that would be incurred to bring the defendent back if he fled.

One does not go to trial if that peson is considered completely innocent.  Rather, one goes to trial when it is believed that there is enough evidence to support taking him to trial so that guilt or innocence may be determined.  IOW going to trial is not smply the "whim" of some DA.  The DA has evidence to raise a litigimate question that can only be determined in a judicial enviornment.

4) In my personal opinon, the $80,000 bond was set based upon the idea that TS does not have a home in VA (as I understand it) and the costs to the State if TS were to return to him home and refuse to come back to VA for trial.  If he owned a home in VA he might have been released on his own recognizence (sp), or by putting his home up for bond.

NOTE:  I am not defending TS.  I am simply making a couple of legal comments.

[Gregory]

Bob said: 

Can a policeman accuse you of speeding and write you a ticket if you haven't first been convicted in a court of law, since you are innocent until proven guilty?

Of course.  The ticket is the accusation.  It is not a statement of either guilt or innocence.

The person who gets the ticket may plead "not-guilty" and take the consequences, plead innocent and go to trial, or follow a third option as exists in the State where I live.

[Johann]

It is possible to have some interesting discussion on the possibilities. In this connection I have also enjoyed reading an article on our system written by the president of our association of judges. It  is my guess she might have a DJ degree from Harvard like several other lawyers have here. Others from various Universities in Europe and Scandinavia.

I also find it interesting to read the study outlines for lawyers in my country. 3 years to get a BA or BS. Then 2 years for a master's degree. Some of the classes take place in Brüssels where the students can watch the legal systems of Europe. International professors from various parts of the world.

Then I discovered the syllabus for a course also taught right here in our home town on the MA level dealing with victims in moral crimes. The main textbook is in English and for sale through Amazon. Food for thought.

[ex3abnemployee]

Well, I still have to be at court Wednesday but there is a possibility I may not have to testify because the defendant has made some admissions. It would be nice if another certain someone would man up and do the same.

[Johann]

A pastor told me he was certain 3ABN would stand much better with honesty and forthrightness that with all  these attempts at covering up.

When a liar tells you he's not been telling you the right things you know he's started telling you the truth, and you will admire him for it. Covering things is an abomination to the Lord, and it will get back at you if you do not repent.

[ex3abnemployee]

A pastor told me he was certain 3ABN would stand much better with honesty and forthrightness that with all  these attempts at covering up.

When a liar tells you he's not been telling you the right things you know he's started telling you the truth, and you will admire him for it. Covering things is an abomination to the Lord, and it will get back at you if you do not repent.

That's exactly right. And the truth is that Tommy wouldn't be sitting where he is right now if he had owned up to what he did years ago. The longer you wait to confess, the less admiration you get when you finally do.

[princessdi]

Duane, I just read your statement at the ...........uuuuhhhhh......"other site" last night.  I am not sure how often you read there.  I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am that you had to experience that, but how proud I am that you are able to have the faith to allow God to heal and restore you.  i am also deeply disappointed in those engaged in defending TS.  Your testimony makes their evil comments to you even more cruel and un-Christ-like.  I will pray for them and their soul's salvation.  They cannot believe that it is alright with God that they treat another one of His children in such a manner.

My constant thoughts and prayers are with you(and other victims), your healing and restoration, and your ministry.  God bless you!

[Gregory]

To set the matter of bail bond in perspective:

Police in the area where I live have just arrested a male who turned 18 last January.  He has been charged with two counts of sexual assault on a child--a 12 YO.  His bond has been set at $100,000.  It is likely that the thought was that an 18 YO is more likely to flee the area than would an elderly male who has a family, owned property and clear ties to the community.

NOTE:  One cannot compare dollar amounts of bail bond between commuities.  There will be clear differences between VA and the metro DC area and the place where I live.

[Artiste]

Duane, I just read your statement at the ...........uuuuhhhhh......"other site" last night.  I am not sure how often you read there.  I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am that you had to experience that, but how proud I am that you are able to have the faith to allow God to heal and restore you.  i am also deeply disappointed in those engaged in defending TS.  Your testimony makes their evil comments to you even more cruel and un-Christ-like.  I will pray for them and their soul's salvation.  They cannot believe that it is alright with God that they treat another one of His children in such a manner.

My constant thoughts and prayers are with you(and other victims), your healing and restoration, and your ministry.  God bless you!

Thank you for your concern, princessdi!