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[Johann]

What would you do if you discover that your unwed daughter is pregnant? As a church leader you may feel you need to cover what has happened. Would it be appropriate to make your daughter have an abortion?

[Bob Pickle]

No. If Prophet Nathan were still alive, he might have a talk with you.

[tinka]

No!

Is this a "new era justification" change?

Is it life or death choice?

[Murcielago]

I think it would be rather inappropriate for a pastor to have a baby killed rather than take the time and effort to nurture a daughter and grandchild through a rough time. We are horrified at the thought of the priests of Baal sacrificing babies on their altars thousands of years ago, but how many babies get sacrificed on the altars we build to the god of Convenience today?

[princessdi]

This is an interesting point here.  Now Nathan gave counsel to David, but God still allowed the child to die.  Now if that were today, what would be the difference in God allowing to die by something some would consider SIDS, etc. or David having Bathsheba abroting the baby.  The baby died either way.

BTW, Totally against abortion, but just as passionate about against a faulty and coorupt government to legislate against it.   They are taking away "God-given choice".  We ALL have the choice to sin.....and reap the consequences.

Just playing devil's advocate here....hehehe!

No. If Prophet Nathan were still alive, he might have a talk with you.

[tinka]

Sometimes we just let God take care of mistakes as He sees it pertaining to childbirth. When in doubt, it is always in His Hands.

[Bob Pickle]

This is an interesting point here.  Now Nathan gave counsel to David, but God still allowed the child to die.

However, remember that it was David as the king and judge who decreed that the rich man in Nathan's story would have to pay back four fold for his hideous crime. In other words, it was David (rather than God) who in essence decided that David was to lose four children as punishment for committing adultery and murdering Uriah, of which the first child to die was that baby.

They are taking away "God-given choice".  We ALL have the choice to sin.....and reap the consequences.

The fact of the matter is that most of the time, folks already exercised their power of choice when they engaged in behavior that results in babies. Just because they don't like the results of their choices doesn't mean that they have the right to permanently take away the power of choice of the baby yet unborn. Shouldn't that baby have the right to be born and grow up to make choices too? If not, why not?

[princessdi]

Bob, I likes this answer!!!   Amen!!!    i still dont' like the the thought of state legislating something like this,  I am still pro-choice on that level.  Those who commit this sin will reap the natural consequences, and also the ultimate consequences if, like all other sins, it goes unrepentent.  However, I am prolife, in that I would not require my teen daughter to have an abortion. 

However, remember that it was David as the king and judge who decreed that the rich man in Nathan's story would have to pay back four fold for his hideous crime. In other words, it was David (rather than God) who in essence decided that David was to lose four children as punishment for committing adultery and murdering Uriah, of which the first child to die was that baby.

The fact of the matter is that most of the time, folks already exercised their power of choice when they engaged in behavior that results in babies. Just because they don't like the results of their choices doesn't mean that they have the right to permanently take away the power of choice of the baby yet unborn. Shouldn't that baby have the right to be born and grow up to make choices too? If not, why not?

[tinka]

Bob, I likes this answer!!!   Amen!!!      I am still pro-choice on that level.    However, I am prolife, in that I would not require my teen daughter to have an abortion. 

Now, which is it?? Totally confusing ...amongest other things....Hmmmmm,

[Murcielago]

The state legislates that I can't kill you today. You are an adult person who is walking the earth. Do you believe that the state has the right to legislate that? Where is my choice? Shouldn't I have to wait for the natural consequences of it? 150 years ago children in England and Ireland were considered property and could be used in any manner their parents chose. They had no legal protection under the law. Eventually, against the pro-choice furor of many parents, laws were passed protecting children from slave labour and sexual misuse. Yet today, people who portray themselves as compassionate and show concern for human rights fight to keep the rights of the most helpless of humans from being protected. Why? It seems a dichotomy to me.
 

Bob, I likes this answer!!!   Amen!!!    i still dont' like the the thought of state legislating something like this,  I am still pro-choice on that level.  Those who commit this sin will reap the natural consequences, and also the ultimate consequences if, like all other sins, it goes unrepentent.  However, I am prolife, in that I would not require my teen daughter to have an abortion. 

However, remember that it was David as the king and judge who decreed that the rich man in Nathan's story would have to pay back four fold for his hideous crime. In other words, it was David (rather than God) who in essence decided that David was to lose four children as punishment for committing adultery and murdering Uriah, of which the first child to die was that baby.

The fact of the matter is that most of the time, folks already exercised their power of choice when they engaged in behavior that results in babies. Just because they don't like the results of their choices doesn't mean that they have the right to permanently take away the power of choice of the baby yet unborn. Shouldn't that baby have the right to be born and grow up to make choices too? If not, why not?

[princessdi]

Well, the problem is that I dont' trust a corrupt system to legislate my morality.  Plus I think of the fact that God did give women recreative abilities, not by themselves, but still the closest to His own.  If they make the wrong decision or abuse that privilege, then they answer to God.  Mind you, I am still mulling this one over, and George, I completely understand about killing those, outside of the womb........I totally understand also when someone kilss an expectant mother, they are charged with two counts of murder no matter how far along she is.   Still at the end, I don't think it is right and definitely a sin simply because it is a Divine privilege bestow upon women, and He beleives all life is precious.   

It is really ok if you are confused, these are my thoughts and I am working them out.  You might already have worked this out in your mind.

Now, which is it?? Totally confusing ...amongest other things....Hmmmmm,

[tinka]

This is how I can make a decision no matter what both sides can bring out to justify each different belief.

Thou shalt not kill. So then it is no longer our choice under the banner of God's commandments.
I do not try to justify what is clear and direct even thou I know one can come up with every reason there is. It is unfortunate many times over in variable situations. But I must have faith in this commandment that all will work out for what ever it is. But if a person will die from it. I can see trying to save a life. Better to save one as two die.

[Little Grasshopper]

The fact of the matter is that most of the time, folks already exercised their power of choice when they engaged in behavior that results in babies.

That's true.  However, it misses one big point.  There is one religious denomination that neither believes in birth control or, basically, in methods to prevent contraception.  They don't teach about birth control in any of their many thousands of parochial schools, either.
 
For religious denominations that provide adults with sex education unwanted pregnancies are very low.

Abortions result from unwanted pregnancies. Among Jews, unwanted pregnancies are so low that the abortion rate is also very low.  The same is true for many of the Protestant denominations that provide age-appropriate sex education.

However, abortion remains a big problem for just one denomination that keeps its members in the dark when it comes to sex education, methods to avoid contraception, etc.

[princessdi]

But people do die at the hands of others, all the time in wars.  In the Bible the COI slaughtered folks lead by God to do so to get the Land He promised to them, including the women and children, did they not?  Now that is cool with us and the Jews because the "earth is the Lord's and the fullnes there of, the world and they that dwell therein". However, the Arabs do not acknowledge that authority to just take they land, murder their families, etc.  The babies were allowed to die when Herrod was looking for Jesus, and at least a couple more times, and God did not intervene.  God did not intervene in Cain killing Abel, etc.    "Thou shalt not kill", doesn't always hold up in the Bible.  "Conditions" were set up somewhere along the way that we could kill and not pay consequences for taking another life, even a child's life.  This is the dilemma of many agnostics and atheists.  How do we get from "Thou shalt not kill"  to "I am going to give you this land and help you kill the people who now rightfully occupy it".  As I said, we, as christians(definitely including myself) take these things in faith that God is in control, knows all, loves all, and all will work out for the good.

Once again, let me state plainly, that I whole heartedly against abortion personally, just not for legislating against it.

This is how I can make a decision no matter what both sides can bring out to justify each different belief.

Thou shalt not kill. So then it is no longer our choice under the banner of God's commandments.
I do not try to justify what is clear and direct even thou I know one can come up with every reason there is. It is unfortunate many times over in variable situations. But I must have faith in this commandment that all will work out for what ever it is. But if a person will die from it. I can see trying to save a life. Better to save one as two die.

[Murcielago]

Do you think that is is right for the government to legislate against the killing of you?

But people do die at the hands of others, all the time in wars.  In the Bible the COI slaughtered folks lead by God to do so to get the Land He promised to them, including the women and children, did they not?  Now that is cool with us and the Jews because the "earth is the Lord's and the fullnes there of, the world and they that dwell therein". However, the Arabs do not acknowledge that authority to just take they land, murder their families, etc.  The babies were allowed to die when Herrod was looking for Jesus, and at least a couple more times, and God did not intervene.  God did not intervene in Cain killing Abel, etc.    "Thou shalt not kill", doesn't always hold up in the Bible.  "Conditions" were set up somewhere along the way that we could kill and not pay consequences for taking another life, even a child's life.  This is the dilemma of many agnostics and atheists.  How do we get from "Thou shalt not kill"  to "I am going to give you this land and help you kill the people who now rightfully occupy it".  As I said, we, as christians(definitely including myself) take these things in faith that God is in control, knows all, loves all, and all will work out for the good.

Once again, let me state plainly, that I whole heartedly against abortion personally, just not for legislating against it.

This is how I can make a decision no matter what both sides can bring out to justify each different belief.

Thou shalt not kill. So then it is no longer our choice under the banner of God's commandments.
I do not try to justify what is clear and direct even thou I know one can come up with every reason there is. It is unfortunate many times over in variable situations. But I must have faith in this commandment that all will work out for what ever it is. But if a person will die from it. I can see trying to save a life. Better to save one as two die.