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[Johann]

No reaction? What does it take to stir up the saints?

[Robert]

Johann

When the early Church learned they could pay someone to do their work for them the spirituality of the members declined.  Can we relate this to the church today?

If women are not to be ordained as elders or pastors is God fair?

[Johann]

Johann

Welcome Robert! I know a number of Roberts, but I have no idea if you are one of  them, but that makes no difference. When I noticed you registering as our member number 353 I had a feeling you wanted to participate in this discussion, but I had no idea in which direction you were inclined. I believe any view should be considered and tested to see what God wants us to do. That is much more important than clinging to our own warped ideas.

When the early Church learned they could pay someone to do their work for them the spirituality of the members declined.  Can we relate this to the church today?

This is an important question because we see that the priesthood turned at least in two directions in the early church. You have the apostolic model which the apostle Paul also describes as being a deacon. The Church of England still follows this in name by calling their pastors deacons. You will also notice from this discussion that the Seventh-day Adventist church has recognized this by approving the ordination of both male and female deacons. You will also recall that Philip seems to have used his mandate as a deacon to baptize people (also the Ethiopian minister of finance) and establish a new church in Samaria (Acts 8).

It is interesting to notice that we have nowhere in Scripture a model of how a church/temple official performs a marriage ceremony.

Then you have the second model basing the new priesthood partly on the Aronic tradition. The Roman church seems to have preferred this model with impressive robes and continuing the offering system from the temple service, just adopting it to fit with the sign of the cross and making the wafer the sacrificed Christ. By adding celibacy to this model the way was open for infant baptism - but that is a different story, explained by the Bishop Augustine of Hippo who became more important than any writers of Scripture to the Church of the Middle Ages. (Another interesting story is how one of  the monks/priests of the order of Augustine became the great reformer, Martin Luther.)

Some may have noticed through the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church that our membership stabilized without much increase in the Western World as more and more ordained pastors were being attached to local established churches in stead of fulfilling their God given appointment.

If women are not to be ordained as elders or pastors is God fair?

Where does God say that, Robert? I still haven't found that reference. Will you provide it?

[Robert]

Johann

I'm the Robert Russell you know.  If you believe EGW, there was never to be settled pastors (clergy) only in certain areas the paid pastors were to train and open up new areas.  Read how the Baptist church grew like wild fire in the 1800's.

If there is no male or female in Christ than they should be treated the same.  Look at Job a man God calls perfect.  How did he treat the females.  Study the first two chapters and the last part of the last chapter.  There are many places in the Bible we need to study more for ourselves.

Robert

[Johann]

Robert,

Sure glad to know it's you and welcome to participate in our discussions. I never forget when Owen Troy introduced us to each other and you as the Director of the Call Center at 3ABN. Owen seemed to regard you as a very important person in the structure of 3ABN, and I soon discovered how quite a bit of the technical things at camp-meeting and other events hinged on you.

[Robert]

I wasn't that important there.  I just done whatever I could to make things better or was asked to do.

When I look at issues in the church I think of my picture of God.  Then I think would the devil be able to accuse God of being unfair.  And does this fit the picture of a loving God.  God is a God of order, does it fit?  This is the way I make many decisions.  There are some things I just don't know what is right. 

Robert

[Johann]

I wasn't that important there.  I just done whatever I could to make things better or was asked to do.

When I'd ask Danny or others at 3ABN certain questions I was told, "Talk to Robert!"

When I look at issues in the church I think of my picture of God.  Then I think would the devil be able to accuse God of being unfair.  And does this fit the picture of a loving God.  God is a God of order, does it fit?  This is the way I make many decisions.  There are some things I just don't know what is right. 

Robert

Job 37:23
The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress.

But who does? When the great enemy is not able to make God's elect break any of His Ten Commandments, the evil powers might try to get them to accept a priesthood akin to what is approved by those who have changed one of the commandments. Anything to prevent the advancement of the Three Angel's Messages on Earth.

[Johann]

Some may not realize that in most of the places in the New Testament where the King James Version has the terms "minister" or "ministry" it is a translation of the Greek words diakoneo, diakonos, or diakonia which are terms for "deacon".  The only one of these which is translated "deacon" is the word "diakonos", and that occurs only three times in the KJV. The same word is tranlated 20 times as "minister".  This indicates that deacon and minister are synonyms and interchangeable, almost like in English where both deacons and ministers are servants.

In reality you find no distinction in Scripture between the terms deacon and minister.

It is interesting that you do not find the term deacon in the KJV as applied to the seven men appointed to the "daily ministration" of the church in Acts 6. Here diakonia is translated ministration and not deacon.

[Robert]

Johann

I agree with you.  I believe there needs to be some changes.

Robert

[Johann]

Johann

I agree with you.  I believe there needs to be some changes.

Robert

Good, Robert. But don't agree with me just because I say so. It should be because this is according to Scripture and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. We do need a revival, even if it will cost us a number of our old convictions when we see the Lord is guiding us closer to Him.

[tinka]

It really shivers me to even ever utter a question asking if God is fair in his creation of duties of male or female. It is beyond plain that his intentions are different in the works of male and female. Otherwise, why make a he and a she???  A bigger question to me is why a believer would always try to make all equal and always justifying out how we can make it happen. I found no where that we had examples of EGW stating that women should take on that role but she definitely gave examples of what they should be doing. The parts where it shows women being ordained or the laying on of hands was deaconesses or bible workers. The liberals back then were doing, and trying their own thing.....just like they are trying to do now. Take note that EGW did not attend their attempts of women ordained preachers.   I did read many reasons why this should not be. If all women were doing what all they are capable of in so many fields...of which some do.... they would not want to wear the pants.  Where are the children of today?  Two acting fathers or is it two mothers?? Think it not important on what God creates and for what reasons???   I believe that women have great abilities of speech....examples...Linda sat on the porch and I always took note and enjoyed her abilities. If she was in the pulpit ordained as a preacher I would not have listened but considered her flaked in her obsession of being equal with man. I am totally woman with no desires of anything manly. Except right to vote (smile) and then I question sometimes if we really should.

[Johann]

It is quite interesting to see how we through the history of our church have the tendency of labeling anyone who discovers greater things that God wants to give His people than what I am willing to accept - as liberals or something. Just as long as we can use a label on those who disagree with me. That tendency is very - too - strong with me too.

May the Good Lord have mercy on us!

[Johann]

I am so old that I remember my mother using a washboard next to the creek where she heated the water over firewood.

Should we re-establish a way for dedicated women to get hold of those washboards? That would occupy their time and help them not to get into mischief in Church!

[Robert]

Johann

I just got back from VA where we were upgrading one of our houses.  Before we move to MN.

I'm not agreeing just to be agreeing.  I have taken classes from Andrews on church growth 20 years ago.  What I was taught most pastors I've been around disagree.

In the early seventy when I became an Adventist the pastor said the members shouldn't give Bible Studies became they were not trained, only the pastor was trained to give Bible Studies.  That was not what I read in Bible and EGW.  The last few years I have just warmed a pew.  I worked with a pastor 30 years a ago for 3 years that taught me even thing he knew about church growth.  It was wonderful.  I would like to find someone like that to work with again.  Maybe when we get to MN I will find that person. 

When we study EGW writings and the Bible we need to look at area, time, and customs. 

I loved my job at 3ABN and even when I was there I believed there was greater things to come.  I put in 60 hours most weeks.  But I disagreed with how Linda was treated!  I left!

Robert

[Alex L. Walker]

I know I'm not Adventist, and that I am southern Baptist. However, I would like to add that I have a HUGE problem with women carrying the title Pastor. I do not believe that it is a woman's place to pastor be a deacon or even serve on the church board.  

I further do not believe that God would call any woman to do any of these jobs I have spoken of. So, I would have to agree with Doug Bachelor's analysis.

This is input from a Southern Baptist Minister.