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[tinka]

Di
What in the world is wrong getting off into your own tangents and re courses of mumble jumble against something you haven't the least understood what I am implying.  Of course it is nothing unusual watching the same misunderstanding of what is going on with the 3abn saga  that you all come up with. Have you lost the train of the subject we were discussing. We were discussing the appearance of true SDA and their examples going into worship the Lord God and being an example in actions and dress, eathing and drinking. You sure are off the wall with coming back with your justifying aggressiveness of something clear different. Have you not read about how we should dress, act,  worship, and reverence God.  Your off the wall idea using different circumstances does not apply to what has been said. If Adventist cannot set the right example of instruction, clean,true way of living then why don't you all just get off it.
No body was talking about going out gathering sinners under the sinners banner of doing things and that is what your answers imply. The example of Jesus was gathering sinners under His instructions and His banner of Righteousness.

[princessdi]

Ok, so what is a true Seventh Day Adventist?  What do those words mean, actually.  I don't believe I was agressive as my examples came from the Bible, and were correct.  Read George's post.  I have long way to be like Christ, and perhaps never will be, but your accusations of me(and others) sounds a lot like those of the Pharisees towards Jesus.  Above all many missed out because Jesus Himself did not "look" as they expected him.  Not off the wall or extreme.  Plus we have to get out of the rut of thinking that everyone has to look the same as us.  We are all at different places in our walk with God We might not all look the same at the same time, neither should we expect it.  It makes "us" feel better, but is it a requirement of God?

I like you tinka, but I am not going to trust my soul's salvation to your word, or even your interpretation of God's Word.  I have to seek Him for myself, and allow Him to reveal His Will for me.......and guess what some of that can differ from His Will for you.  The fact that you don't understnad this is ok, but very telling.
 

Di
What in the world is wrong getting off into your own tangents and re courses of mumble jumble against something you haven't the least understood what I am implying.  Of course it is nothing unusual watching the same misunderstanding of what is going on with the 3abn saga  that you all come up with. Have you lost the train of the subject we were discussing. We were discussing the appearance of true SDA and their examples going into worship the Lord God and being an example in actions and dress, eathing and drinking. You sure are off the wall with coming back with your justifying aggressiveness of something clear different. Have you not read about how we should dress, act,  worship, and reverence God.  Your off the wall idea using different circumstances does not apply to what has been said. If Adventist cannot set the right example of instruction, clean,true way of living then why don't you all just get off it.
No body was talking about going out gathering sinners under the sinners banner of doing things and that is what your answers imply. The example of Jesus was gathering sinners under His instructions and His banner of Righteousness.

[tinka]

A true Adventist, is loyal, honest, generous, patient, humble, dedicated, gentle, giving, loving, sober, prayerful, ambitious, forgiving, grateful, kind, thoughtful, clean and neat and extremely wise for the example to the disloyal, dishonest, ungenerous, impatient, boastful, disobedient, harsh , selfish, hating, drunks, atheists, lazy, unforgiving, ungrateful, mean, thoughtless, disshelved, dirty and ignorant. and this is not a rut nor an (or off the wall implication) that everyone has to look the same or cloned.

[princessdi]

Aaaaaaahhhhhhh, but you make my point exactly, Tinka.  Per your own descriptors of a true SDA, very few have anything to do with the outward appearance, aonly to, to be exact.  The rest have to do with their character.  The very part on which God looks.  However, like in the post about the Hope Channel and the ladies singing there, you would not know anything about their character, because you can't get past their outward appearance. 

Now, we know that Jesus spent a lot of time around folks whose outward looks were not exceptable to the church leaders or even society at large, But He looked passed their outward appearance.  Where does that leave us who cannot see our brothers and sisters through God's eye, as His children, our brothers and sisters.  to see that no matter the outward appearance, Jesus came to die for their sins........and loves them........unconditionally......just like us....while they are yet in their sins.  What does this say about us, who are so "holy" that we require even more than God Himself of a person?  We must remember that for anyone to be saved, it is not necessary that they convince us of their relationship with God

A true Adventist, is loyal, honest, generous, patient, humble, dedicated, gentle, giving, loving, sober, prayerful, ambitious, forgiving, grateful, kind, thoughtful, clean and neat and extremely wise for the example to the disloyal, dishonest, ungenerous, impatient, boastful, disobedient, harsh , selfish, hating, drunks, atheists, lazy, unforgiving, ungrateful, mean, thoughtless, disshelved, dirty and ignorant. and this is not a rut nor an (or off the wall implication) that everyone has to look the same or cloned.

[tinka]

No you missed my point. Hope channel is supposed to present the examples that I said above. They don't always. They are supposed to be SDA's top of the line example to present to world. Their appearance does not uphold those appearances presented by SP and that is very obvious in their manners of boastful self interest girations, handclapping, gaudy un-neat dress, jiving, and bluezy, jazz wacking away at the drums with ruby red nails and jewelry galore. These are not true Adventists showing out on tv presented to the whole world as cream of the crop but copiers of the secular world. I am disgusted with it and mostly ashamed. and my complaint is that this is not the example to set for non adventists. That was my point. Their character is already displayed with what they want seen. How will non adventist know what is truth if they are told early and discover a bunch of talkers and not walkers.

[Johann]

“In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth.” — Ellen G.White in RH, May 18, 1911.

Has anyone discovered the date when the Lord withdrew His ordination from Ellen G. White if it was still valid 1911?

[princessdi]

 

[tinka]

the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth.” — Ellen G.White in RH, May 18, 1911.

Has anyone discovered the date when the Lord withdrew His ordination from Ellen G. White if it was still valid 1911?
[/quote]

Key words...the Lord ordained me as His messenger... I don't think she misspoke a word. messenger of the Lord does not mean the same as Ordained pastor. She was exactly what she said ..the Lord ordained me a messenger

[Johann]

the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth.” — Ellen G.White in RH, May 18, 1911.

Has anyone discovered the date when the Lord withdrew His ordination from Ellen G. White if it was still valid 1911?

Key words...the Lord ordained me as His messenger... I don't think she misspoke a word. messenger of the Lord does not mean the same as Ordained pastor. She was exactly what she said ..the Lord ordained me a messenger

"Sound doctrine" is Bible truth--truth that will promote piety and devotion, confirming God's people in the faith. Sound doctrine means much to the receiver; and it means much, too, to the teacher, the minister of righteousness; for wherever the gospel is preached, every laborer, whatever his line of service, is either true or untrue to his responsibility as the Lord's messenger.  {GW 311.2}

According to this a messenger is also as teacher, a minister of righteousness, one who teaches the gospel, labors. . .  What is a pastor then?

[Johann]

It is interesting to note how Ellen G White refers to Wycliffe both as a chaplain, pastor, reformer, - and a messenger

[Johann]

Key words...the Lord ordained me as His messenger... I don't think she misspoke a word. messenger of the Lord does not mean the same as Ordained pastor. She was exactly what she said ..the Lord ordained me a messenger

Help! I  have been searching for a quote by Ellen White where she states that a pastor should be ordained, and I have found none. Could you help me?

I have found a number of places where she lists the duties of pastors, but none of them apply to what is generally regarded as the special duties of the pastor and not the church elder.

[tinka]

   Here are points of interest in ordination but am still looking for your direct question but the words again are not mistaken "the Lord ordained her as messenger." No human hands ordained EGW as a preacher. But again many wanted that as they voted for it but it did not happen as one can see here.


From the Lifetime and Experience of Ellen G. White
     A PAPER PRESENTED AT THE MINISTERIAL MEETING AT THE 1990 GENERAL CONFERENCE SESSION. PREPARED BY THE WHITE ESTATE STAFF.  {DG 248.1}

     1. A RESOLUTION TO ORDAIN WOMEN WAS DISCUSSED AT THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OF 1881. NO ACTION WAS TAKEN. THE MINUTES INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING LINES: {DG 248.2}
     "RESOLVED, THAT FEMALES POSSESSING THE NECESSARY QUALIFICATIONS TO FILL THAT POSITION MAY, WITH PERFECT PROPRIETY, BE SET APART BY ORDINATION TO THE WORK OF THE CHRISTIAN MINISTRY. {DG 248.3}
     "THIS WAS DISCUSSED BY J. O. CORLISS, A. C. BOURDEAU, E. R. JONES, D. H. LAMSON, W. H. LITTLEJOHN, A. S. HUTCHINS, D. M. CANRIGHT, AND J. N. LOUGHBOROUGH, AND REFERRED TO THE GENERAL CONFERENCE COMMITTEE."--RH, DEC. 20, 1881.{DG 248.4}
     ELLEN WHITE DID NOT ATTEND THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OF 1881. HER HUSBAND DIED ON AUGUST 6 OF THAT YEAR. TWO WEEKS AFTER HIS DEATH SHE LEFT BATTLE CREEK, BOUND FOR CALIFORNIA. SHE DID NOT RETURN TO MICHIGAN UNTIL AUGUST OF 1883.{DG 248.5}

     2. FOR MANY YEARS ELLEN WHITE WAS VOTED MINISTERIAL CREDENTIALS BY THE MICHIGAN CONFERENCE (SEE E.G. RH, SEPT. 10, 1872),
249
AND THEN LATER BY THE GENERAL CONFERENCE. HOWEVER, SHE WAS NEVER ORDAINED BY HUMAN HANDS, NOR DID SHE EVER PERFORM A WEDDING, ORGANIZE A CHURCH, OR CONDUCT A BAPTISM.{DG 248.6}
     3. IN 1895 ELLEN WHITE RECOMMENDED THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN WHO WOULD GIVE THEMSELVES TO A DEACONESS-TYPE OF WORK:{DG 249.1}
     "Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church."--RH, July 9, 1895.{DG 249.2}
     A NUMBER OF WOMEN WERE ORDAINED AS DEACONESSES DURING ELLEN WHITE'S AUSTRALIAN MINISTRY. ON AUGUST 10, 1895, THE NOMINATING COMMITTEE AT THE ASHFIELD CHURCH IN SYDNEY RENDERED ITS REPORT, WHICH WAS APPROVED. THE CLERK'S MINUTES FOR THAT DATE STATE: "IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE ELECTION, THE OFFICERS WERE CALLED TO THE FRONT WHERE PASTORS CORLISS AND MCCULLAGH SET APART THE ELDER, DEACONS, [AND] DEACONESSES BY PRAYER AND THE LAYING ON OF HANDS."{DG 249.3}
     SEVERAL YEARS LATER, IN THE SAME CHURCH, W. C. WHITE OFFICIATED AT THE ORDINATION OF THE CHURCH OFFICERS. THE MINUTES OF THE ASHFIELD CHURCH FOR JANUARY 7, 1900, STATE: "THE PREVIOUS SABBATH OFFICERS HAD BEEN NOMINATED AND ACCEPTED FOR THE CURRENT YEAR, AND TODAY ELDER WHITE ORDAINED AND LAID HANDS ON THE ELDERS, DEACON, AND DEACONESSES.--AR, JAN. 16, 1986.{DG 249.4}

[tinka]

  Before ordination, ministers should give evidence that they have dedicated themselves to the work.--There must be evidence on the part of those who take the solemn position of shepherds, that they have without reservation, dedicated themselves to the work. They must take Christ as their personal Saviour. . . . Hands are laid upon men to ordain them for the ministry before they are thoroughly examined as to their qualifications for the sacred work; but how much better would it be to make thorough work before accepting them as ministers, than to have to go through this rigid examination after they have become established in their position, and have put their mould upon the work.--TM 171, 172. {PaM 42.2}


 We must not rely on human judgment alone in selecting ministers.--Those who are about to enter upon the sacred work of teaching Bible truth to the world should be carefully examined by faithful, experienced persons. After these have had some experience, there is still another work to be done for them; they should be presented before the Lord in earnest prayer that He would indicate by His Holy Spirit if they are acceptable to Him. The apostle says: "Lay hands suddenly on no man." In the days of the apostles, the ministers of God did not dare to rely up on their own judgment in selecting or accepting men to take the solemn and sacred position of mouthpiece for God. They selected the men whom their judgment would accept, and then they placed them before the Lord to see if He would accept them to go forth as His representatives. No less than this should be done now.--4T 406. {PaM 44.2}

[tinka]

REASONS FOR ORDINATION:

 The Business Sessions of the Conference

     Ministers present belonging to the Michigan Conference were James White, J. H. Waggoner, J. B. Frisbie, John Byington, J. N. Loughborough, Moses Hull, M. E. Cornell, R. J. Lawrence, and Joseph Bates. Bates now resided in retirement in Monterey, only two blocks from the meetinghouse. He was asked to serve as chairman of the conference.  {1BIO 477.5}
     There was much to be accomplished in the business meetings; first, the examination of the standing of the churches, their memberships, and their wishes in relation to being taken into the conference. This accomplished, study was given to ministerial credentials and the assignment of ministers to fields of labor.


                             478  {1BIO 477.6}
     Now that there was an official Seventh-day Adventist Church body, with longstanding, acknowledged leaders to guide in the work of the church, particularly in Michigan, attention could be given to more general resolutions. One read:  {1BIO 478.1}
          Whereas, We believe that the Lord has called Brother and
     Sister White to labor among the churches, and,  {1BIO 478.2}
          Whereas, The state of the cause in the several States
     demands their labor, therefore,  {1BIO 478.3}
          Resolved, That this conference recommend Brother and Sister
     White to labor in different States, and assist in organizing
     conferences and churches, as the way may open before
     them.--Ibid.  {1BIO 478.4}

                  Matters for Conference Consideration

     The minutes of this conference session set forth some interesting items of business that Elder Sanborn brought from Illinois and Wisconsin, calling for the opinion of the conference:  {1BIO 478.5}
          1. How shall we treat divorced marriages?  {1BIO 478.6}
          2. Shall preachers from other denominations embracing the
     message preach and baptize among us, on the strength of their
     former ordination and standing as ministers?  {1BIO 478.7}
          3. Shall young preachers, before being ordained, be allowed
     to baptize?  {1BIO 478.8}
          4. Shall T. M. Steward have a letter of commendation as a
     preacher among us?--Ibid.  {1BIO 478.9}
     Steward was the minister deeply involved in the fanaticism that broke out in Mauston, Wisconsin.  {1BIO 478.10}
     After satisfying themselves to the full intent of the first question--and ascertaining that what was involved was the accepting into church membership those couples comprised of individuals who had been divorced on grounds other than the violation of the seventh commandment, actions were taken as follows:  {1BIO 478.11}
          1. Resolved, That the matter of divorced marriages be
     referred to the conference committee. [DILIGENT SEARCH FAILS TO
     DISCLOSE ANY REPORT ON THIS PERPLEXING ITEM.]


                                   479  {1BIO 478.12}
        2. Resolved, That ministers of other denominations, embracing
     present truth, should give proof of being called to preach the
     message, and be ordained among us, before administering the
     ordinances.  {1BIO 479.1}
        3. Resolved, That no person, young or old, should administer
     the ordinances before being ordained.  {1BIO 479.2}
        4. In reference to Brother Steward's case, it was suggested
     ...that... further time be allowed.... The conference saw fit to
     take no action in the matter.--Ibid.  {1BIO 479.3}
     The feeling prevailed that Steward's position was somewhat akin to that of a young minister, allowing him time to give proof of his ministry before endorsing him again for that sacred work. It was felt best, however, to leave the matter without record.  {1BIO 479.4}
     The closing actions of the conference called for the next State conference meeting to be held in Battle Creek, October 2 to 5, 1863, and that the State conferences be invited to meet with them by delegates "in general conference, at our next annual conference."  {1BIO 479.5}
     The subject of a general conference that would bind State conferences together surfaced again from time to time. This would be the crowning step in organization.  {1BIO 479.6}
     Uriah Smith, as he reported the conference, pointed out that "our pilgrimage heavenward lies through a pathway that is rough and thorny," but that the conference at Monterey would be looked back upon as an oasis in the desert. It was clear that organization of churches and conferences was paying off. He observed, "The meetings were harmonious, and the brethren unanimous in their conclusions."--Ibid.  {1BIO 479.7}

[Johann]

Very good! But I used the word "pastor" on purpose in my question. In my early youth I never heard of church pastors in the Seventh-day Adventist church. Yes, we had ministers and/or evangelists who were preaching - and moving on for new fields, but not hovering over established churches. There the local elders were to take car of the members. I recall Ellen White warning against having local pastors to take care of those already established.

In one of the quotations I notice that ministers are ordained/appointed by ordination to baptize, perform marriages and establish churches.

We make quite a point of being part of the Reformation. But are we still subscribing to the priesthood that Martin Luther fought against?

Justification by faith was a very important part of the Reformation, but do we realize how Martin Luther took his stand against the priesthood which substituted the sacrifice of Jesus Christ with the magic work of the priesthood which made indulgences possible?

Martin Luther agreed with the Apostle Peter 1 Peter 2:5:
"you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." And 1 Peter 2:9:
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

Luther interpreted Peter as saying that this priesthood included any believer and therefore if a group of believers were gathered without an ordained pastor any individual in that group could baptize or perform marriages.

Are we leaving this Reformation principle behind us and returning to the teachings of the church Luther was expelled from?

Does this question not matter to us at all?