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[sonshineonme]

Di, you always make good points, make me smile while making them, and I appreciate you and your truly Christian spirit. (fall off the wagon, I love it!! ;-) )

Well, Inga, I have spoken many times to my friend and sister in Christ, tinka, about indulging in the haterade.  Lately she has been doing much better, however, we know that folks often fall off the wagon on the road to recovery.....LOL!!!  Just teasing Tinka!   

That said, I believe Inga to be right.  We really have to be carefully about believing that God shares our likes, dislikes, preferences, etc.   i.e. "If I don't like it God must hate it, must be sin.   

I believe there is one other issue, but that would take this thread in a whole 'nother direction. 

Does HOPETV sell airtime to other ministries? That is what that sounds like to me.

I highly doubt it.

What "it sounds like" is that Tinka didn't like the music she heard or the ear rings. That sort of thing tends to affect the way people describe music.  

[princessdi]

HUGS, Darlin'!

Di, you always make good points, make me smile while making them, and I appreciate you and your truly Christian spirit. (fall off the wagon, I love it!! ;-) )

Well, Inga, I have spoken many times to my friend and sister in Christ, tinka, about indulging in the haterade.  Lately she has been doing much better, however, we know that folks often fall off the wagon on the road to recovery.....LOL!!!  Just teasing Tinka!   

That said, I believe Inga to be right.  We really have to be carefully about believing that God shares our likes, dislikes, preferences, etc.   i.e. "If I don't like it God must hate it, must be sin.   

I believe there is one other issue, but that would take this thread in a whole 'nother direction. 

Does HOPETV sell airtime to other ministries? That is what that sounds like to me.

I highly doubt it.

What "it sounds like" is that Tinka didn't like the music she heard or the ear rings. That sort of thing tends to affect the way people describe music.  

[tinka]

Princessdi,
January, 1900, and the world was comparatively peaceful and full of hope.  but in the Adventist Church a deadly apostasy brewed, wherein a few of the denomination's most brilliant and charismatic teachers would seek to undermine fundamental doctrines.  In so doing they would attract to themselves some of the more able people in the church. Ellen White called the apostasy the "Alpha", and warned that it would be followed by an even greater falling away--the "omega".

Is today's church, buffeted more from within than from without, enmeshed in the omega apostasy.

How is that for "Hateraid"!  In fact I believe that word is entirely uncalled for as especially when you have followers that appreciated your answers and have not appreciated a great counsel that will lead us home.

 Irreverence Encouraged by Display of Apparel.-- All should be taught to be neat, clean, and orderly in their dress, but not to indulge in that external adorning which is wholly inappropriate for the sanctuary. There should be no display of the apparel, for this encourages irreverence. . . . All matters of dress should be strictly guarded, following closely the Bible rule. Fashion has been the goddess who has ruled the outside world, and she often insinuates herself into the church. The church should make the Word of God her standard.

Not for Display
 

     Musical talent too often fosters pride and ambition for display.--Musical entertainments which, if conducted properly, will do no harm, are often a source of evil. . . . Musical talent too often fosters pride and ambition for display, and singers have but little thought of the worship of God.--VSS 422. {PaM 179.4}

I see nothing on Hope channel that portrays a  pure Adventist message throughout as the above on most of their programs. and yes it does seem like they have other churches on there that must be paying but if not --that is what I am talking about or observing. So a matter of fact you can watch other religious programing for charismatic and hullabaloo channels of Direct TV that have these same messages of everything goes.

It was never what "tinka" liked or disliked. It was a view that I wholly except and again Hope channel is in the relm of not respecting SP in all things.

All statements by EGW and Lewis Walton stating EGW statements.

[inga]

Princessdi,
January, 1900, and the world was comparatively peaceful and full of hope.  but in the Adventist Church a deadly apostasy brewed, wherein a few of the denomination's most brilliant and charismatic teachers would seek to undermine fundamental doctrines.  In so doing they would attract to themselves some of the more able people in the church. Ellen White called the apostasy the "Alpha", and warned that it would be followed by an even greater falling away--the "omega".

Interesting comment, since I am just reading about that time of our church history in George Knight's excellent biography of AT Jones. I highly recommend it, rather than looking at the past through the eyes of Lewis Walton who demonstrates a certain bias.

A secular saying is that "those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it." Ellen White wrote, "We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we forget how God has led us in the past. I also recommend this year's  adult devotional "Lest We Forget," by the way.

Is today's church, buffeted more from within than from without, enmeshed in the omega apostasy.

Possibly. But perhaps the main players are not the ones you judge them to be.

How is that for "Hateraid"!  In fact I believe that word is entirely uncalled for as especially when you have followers that appreciated your answers and have not appreciated a great counsel that will lead us home.

Your words re not appreciating "great counsel that will lead us home" do sound a mite judgmental. (Judgementalism is a chief ingredient of "haterade.")

I appreciate your EGWhite quotes and agree with them completely. I wonder if it would surprise you to know that the leaders in the Alpha apostasy used her quotations liberally?

I also wonder if you realize that those involved in the Alpha apostasy were -- as far as I can tell -- very "conservative" in their approach to Adventism? By contrast, people like Ellen White and A.G. Daniells who did their mightiest to stem the tide of apostasy would today be judged as very "liberal." The difference was that the latter could see the bigger picture and overlooked some of the details. "Love covers a multitude of sins." Of course, Ellen White had the distinct advantage of understanding what was in the hearts, considering she got this insight through divine revelation.

I see nothing on Hope channel that portrays a  pure Adventist message throughout as the above on most of their programs. and yes it does seem like they have other churches on there that must be paying but if not --that is what I am talking about or observing. So a matter of fact you can watch other religious programing for charismatic and hullabaloo channels of Direct TV that have these same messages of everything goes.

It was never what "tinka" liked or disliked. It was a view that I wholly except and again Hope channel is in the relm of not respecting SP in all things.

I'm glad you are saying that you "see nothing on Hope channel that portrays a pure Adventist message." Of course, I have no idea what your standard of "purity" are. At the time of his apostasy, AT Jones was quite sure that "the brethren" at the GC did not portray the pure Adventist message. He and his cohorts went so far as to conjecture that Ellen White (because of her more "liberal" stance) was influenced by these men in what she wrote and therefore they felt free to reject her counsels.

Those who will not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.

I haven't seen any Hope broadcasts lately, but when I did see them earlier, I saw that they broadcast from a wide spectrum of Adventist churches and ministries -- in contrast to 3ABN which has its own strict standards to make it "better" than the rest of the Adventist church. The Hope Channel is a far better reflection of the  Adventist church -- for better or for worse.

It might also be profitable to remember that the "conservatives" in Christ's day shouted loudly to demand Christ's crucifixion. They joined the "liberals" (the priests) in their deadly endeavor.

There's an interesting postscript to the latter. My husband pointed it out recently, and you can check it out for yourself: After the crucifixion a goodly number of the priests joined the believers. We know of no Pharisees who joined, other than Nicodemus. And finally God had to hit Saul over the heat to get him to see the light, and he was converted as well.

It rather seems to me that it is easier to get "liberals" to see the truth when it is made clear than to get "conservatives" to see it -- probably because the "conservatives" are already sure they know it and thus have no further need of enlightenment.

H'mm ... that does sound a lot like Laodicea, doesn't it?

At least that's the way I see it. You are free to see things differently. 

[Johann]

Interesting comment, since I am just reading about that time of our church history in George Knight's excellent biography of AT Jones. I highly recommend it, rather than looking at the past through the eyes of Lewis Walton who demonstrates a certain bias.

I read some of Lewis Walton's books which are challenging. Too bad that he seemed to be influenced by Charles Darwin in some of his conclusions.

[tinka]

Hmmm, you all sound so convincing, it's a wonder why some of you were not to be the chosen messengers.  I can read very proficiently and I am not a justifier or make way for ones own selfish ways of liberalism. The reason EGW had to write so much in counsels and letters is exactly because people either went to fanaticism or did their own views or opinions to their own liking. It was very important for me to read word for word meaning. I do not waste my time anymore to be convinced by Hope Channel that it is a true version or foundation that was supposed to be for our guidence in any age. It is a well painted picture that one can view in this age that the church and their lost foudations are definitely in the "Omega" of time given by EGW.

[inga]

I do not waste my time anymore to be convinced by Hope Channel that it is a true version or foundation that was supposed to be for our guidence in any age. It is a well painted picture that one can view in this age that the church and their lost foudations are definitely in the "Omega" of time given by EGW.

Interesting that you should say that, Tinka. I don't  spend much time with Hope Channel either -- chiefly because I don't have time to watch any TV. As you should know, Hope Channel is not any particular program, but it is a channel through which a variety of Adventist programming is made available to the world.  I wonder what sort of programming you would find superior to the official TV channel of the world-wide Seventh-day Adventist church -- broadcast in all the major languages of the world and viewable in most parts of the world.

To me, the programming looks like a "who's who" in Adventism, with regular programs from people such as Mark Finley, Kenneth Cox, Jose Rojas, programs such as Amazing Facts (Doug Batchelor), It Is Written (Shawn Boonstra), Breath of Life, Faith for Today, Lifestyle magazine, Janice's Attic, Really Living (Jeannie Ramos), Exploring the Word, His Word Alive, Native New Day, Beyond Addiction, Cooking Vegetarian, Healing Hope, Fingerprints of Creation, Life and Teachings of Christ, Faces Around the Cross, Hope Sabbath School, Nature Speaks... but you can look up the programming yourself at http://www.hopetv.org/watch-now/tv-schedule/dialup.html.

It seems to me that you can't denigrate HopeTV without denigrating the Adventist Church throughout the world.

I wonder whether you believe that there is a special group of "perfect" people whom God commissioned to give the last message to the world -- other than the the world-wide Seventh-day Adventist church? Are you a member of this "perfect" group?

One lesson that has been impressed upon me recently is that God uses very imperfect people to do His work on this earth. If He didn't, He couldn't use any of us.

I believe we should be very careful about denigrating our brothers and sisters and even any particular ministries. God may be using them in ways He could not use us, and by denigrating them, we are denigrating God's elect instruments, as imperfect as they are.

It is much easier to criticize and tear down than to actually do the work of building up. We can choose to be part of the construction gang or the wrecking crew.

As for me, I pray that the Lord will give me the grace to choose to be part of the construction crew.

[tinka]

NO, I am not a part of a perfect group, but I am a part of a perfect message and I do get up and state when they make it imperfect with their own girations of "everything goes" just send the money.  I feel the leaders know when these imperfections of SP are produced.

It's like the ring, soon as one wears and its ok'd the followers follow and now it is a brand new imperfection along with dress, vanity, and what ever. But some of your mentioned programs where the evangelists control the study and audience of SDA are not in view and performing their stuff is what I pay attention to.

Btw, today I watched the most inspired music I believe I have ever witnessed that I am sure the Holy Spirt was sending the most powerful listening to the Savior that could be possible by anyone. I observed every moment in awe. The melodous sound seemed to be perfect with heartstrings attached straight to Heavenly courts.

There was no talk, there was no expression of ones self, there was no story to tell as that is not what his music was about,  there was humbleness so attached to perfection of the most beautiful portrayed music given to Jesus. Never have I felt the Holy Spirit or the angels that had to be listening to such a beautiful boys given talents back to Jesus that his only connection was his heart to Jesus as he played. He seemed to have no other connection with anyone but His Creator.  It was to beautiful to see and hear and the reverance was not touched by one sound after he played by the programing or chit chat after ward. I was left in awe and with knowledge all Heaven was listening.  His name was Michlen LaiePeng. a beautiful boy and soul. A proud mother she must be!

[Johann]

“In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth.” — Ellen G.White in RH, May 18, 1911.

[princessdi]

Actually, Inga, contrary to popular belief.  it is not an issue with the singer, pastor, etc.  The fact that one is able to be distract by something so superficial as one's dress, is on the part of the observer.  It shows how easily the enemy can distract and cause us to lose out on a blessing trying to look for perfection that God Himself does not require.  Mising out because the "message" doesn't come in a package we will except.  In essence it is the worse kind of rebellion....telling God you will not hear His message to you unless it looks this way or that, or is given by this person.  We MUST be open, especially these day to the manifest Word of God in our everyday lives.  The example of this we see here, would be of a person who would have missed the message given by the donkey, and been one of those condemning the woman who anointed Jesus feet, or of David's wife Michal.  They all missed the message, because they got caught in a package.   There is nothing we can do or say to change this.  It is the way they look at things, and a part of their growth process their Lord.  It is only when we become completely open to the workings of the Holy Spirit that we lose these "conditions" for hearing God's Word,

Interesting that you should say that, Tinka. I don't  spend much time with Hope Channel either -- chiefly because I don't have time to watch any TV. As you should know, Hope Channel is not any particular program, but it is a channel through which a variety of Adventist programming is made available to the world.  I wonder what sort of programming you would find superior to the official TV channel of the world-wide Seventh-day Adventist church -- broadcast in all the major languages of the world and viewable in most parts of the world.

To me, the programming looks like a "who's who" in Adventism, with regular programs from people such as Mark Finley, Kenneth Cox, Jose Rojas, programs such as Amazing Facts (Doug Batchelor), It Is Written (Shawn Boonstra), Breath of Life, Faith for Today, Lifestyle magazine, Janice's Attic, Really Living (Jeannie Ramos), Exploring the Word, His Word Alive, Native New Day, Beyond Addiction, Cooking Vegetarian, Healing Hope, Fingerprints of Creation, Life and Teachings of Christ, Faces Around the Cross, Hope Sabbath School, Nature Speaks... but you can look up the programming yourself at http://www.hopetv.org/watch-now/tv-schedule/dialup.html.

It seems to me that you can't denigrate HopeTV without denigrating the Adventist Church throughout the world.

I wonder whether you believe that there is a special group of "perfect" people whom God commissioned to give the last message to the world -- other than the the world-wide Seventh-day Adventist church? Are you a member of this "perfect" group?

One lesson that has been impressed upon me recently is that God uses very imperfect people to do His work on this earth. If He didn't, He couldn't use any of us.

I believe we should be very careful about denigrating our brothers and sisters and even any particular ministries. God may be using them in ways He could not use us, and by denigrating them, we are denigrating God's elect instruments, as imperfect as they are.

It is much easier to criticize and tear down than to actually do the work of building up. We can choose to be part of the construction gang or the wrecking crew.

As for me, I pray that the Lord will give me the grace to choose to be part of the construction crew.

[Johann]

Have you ever considered that we would receive the greatest blessing if a great number of the people worshiping with us were dressed like people in the theater or the dance hall?

Why?

Because these are probably the people who need the gospel message even more than you do and would therefore receive a greater blessing than you do by hearing Jesus Christ presented with power of the Holy Spirit and conviction. Our churches should be more for the sinners than the saints, and you receive a blessing when you invite your worldly neighbors to hear the message and pray earnestly that the message will convict them as well as yourself.

We remain the OMEGA - lukewarm - people as long as we retain the conviction that church gatherings are only for the perfect people who need to see only "perfectly" dressed people around us when we hear the message preached.

I doubt that such spiritual selfish people will ever be sealed before the gate closes.

[tinka]

So where does the example of Christ like fit in??? In that scenario It doesn't. The problem is that most people want to jump on the ones that bring  apostacy to their attention by example. They fail to realize they are jumping on the person that suggests it but the origianal ONe that originally gives it is who they are trampling on. All can suit their selves in what they want to belive and see the outcome of bringing everyone down to the lowest level to feel great theirselves. I really don't think you will win souls all decked with the devil's folly. and why should I be surprised at the state of the church in this latter time???Just read advent talk and it enough to scare you to not enter in.

[princessdi]

Preach that!!!!   By beholding[Christ} we become changed!  Our churches need to be filled at every meeting with folks "inappropriately"  dres'ed.  Us personifying Jesus' appeal to come as you are.  If we go by scripture, Jesus did not hang out much with the church leaders, you know you the folks who "looked" as if they were doing things right.  In fact, the Bible says something about them being vessels, white perfect looking on the outside but corrupt on the inside.  "Jesus example" is that he was always accused by those who "looked right" for always being in the company of those who were from from right.     His example to that forgotten group was none of the condemnation show them by those who thought themselves perfect.  let's remember the publican as he gave his offering......and remember who Jesus preferred in that situation.  Let us remember that what was wrong with the publican,m was his attitude.  He was doing things right, but it was his attitude while doing it.  Christ example ws over and over again, preferring those who did not "look" right to those who thought they had it all right. 

So, which example of Christ were you talking about, Tinka?  Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart", right?

Lest, we become confused, though.  We don't stay there in our sins, but are in an healing environment to grow Christ.  Not just to dress a certain way to fit in, but out of our individual love relationships with Christ.  Too often we are looking for the signs so that we can do what God says we can't........discern the wheat from the tares.  It is our Christ like character that draws, Tinka.  Remember, Jesus says, If I be lifted up, I will draw all men......"

Have you ever considered that we would receive the greatest blessing if a great number of the people worshiping with us were dressed like people in the theater or the dance hall?

Why?

Because these are probably the people who need the gospel message even more than you do and would therefore receive a greater blessing than you do by hearing Jesus Christ presented with power of the Holy Spirit and conviction. Our churches should be more for the sinners than the saints, and you receive a blessing when you invite your worldly neighbors to hear the message and pray earnestly that the message will convict them as well as yourself.

We remain the OMEGA - lukewarm - people as long as we retain the conviction that church gatherings are only for the perfect people who need to see only "perfectly" dressed people around us when we hear the message preached.

I doubt that such spiritual selfish people will ever be sealed before the gate closes.

[Murcielago]

Christ broke the mold of what a person was supposed to look, talk and act like. He was considered a dangerous liberal who did not represent the truth given to the church. He spent time with tax collectors, prostitutes, zealots, and the dregs of society. In one of his parables, he said to go into the alleys and hedges and bring in the riffraff to the king's dinner. He broke the Sabbath time and again, and deeply offended the staunch defenders of the faith with his liberal attitude that people were more important than doctrine, form, belief system, or any of the other things that were most important to the exclusive truth given to the church. In Christ's example I have not ever seen where he attacked anyone for their looks, their clothes, their jewelry, or their gender. I have never seen an instance where he told anyone to come back when they were dressed more appropriately for him. In the case of the Samaritan, he demonized those who abided by the law, and set a man who did not even care about the law as an example of what matters most to God, for all time.

Preach that!!!!   By beholding[Christ} we become changed!  Our churches need to be filled at every meeting with folks "inappropriately"  dres'ed.  Us personifying Jesus' appeal to come as you are.  If we go by scripture, Jesus did not hang out much with the church leaders, you know you the folks who "looked" as if they were doing things right.  In fact, the Bible says something about them being vessels, white perfect looking on the outside but corrupt on the inside.  "Jesus example" is that he was always accused by those who "looked right" for always being in the company of those who were from from right.     His example to that forgotten group was none of the condemnation show them by those who thought themselves perfect.  let's remember the publican as he gave his offering......and remember who Jesus preferred in that situation.  Let us remember that what was wrong with the publican,m was his attitude.  He was doing things right, but it was his attitude while doing it.  Christ example ws over and over again, preferring those who did not "look" right to those who thought they had it all right. 

So, which example of Christ were you talking about, Tinka?  Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart", right?

Lest, we become confused, though.  We don't stay there in our sins, but are in an healing environment to grow Christ.  Not just to dress a certain way to fit in, but out of our individual love relationships with Christ.  Too often we are looking for the signs so that we can do what God says we can't........discern the wheat from the tares.  It is our Christ like character that draws, Tinka.  Remember, Jesus says, If I be lifted up, I will draw all men......"

Have you ever considered that we would receive the greatest blessing if a great number of the people worshiping with us were dressed like people in the theater or the dance hall?

Why?

Because these are probably the people who need the gospel message even more than you do and would therefore receive a greater blessing than you do by hearing Jesus Christ presented with power of the Holy Spirit and conviction. Our churches should be more for the sinners than the saints, and you receive a blessing when you invite your worldly neighbors to hear the message and pray earnestly that the message will convict them as well as yourself.

We remain the OMEGA - lukewarm - people as long as we retain the conviction that church gatherings are only for the perfect people who need to see only "perfectly" dressed people around us when we hear the message preached.

I doubt that such spiritual selfish people will ever be sealed before the gate closes.

[Johann]

I really don't think you will win souls all decked with the devil's folly.

What is the example of Jesus Christ?

Matthew 18:10-12 (King James Version)

 10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

 11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

 12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.