Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Murcielago]

http://www.atoday.com/content/doug-batchelor-preaches-against-women-pastors

Pastor Doug Bachelor preached against women as pastors or elders. He took the stand that they are to be subservient to men. The world church has voted in session several times against ordaining women to ministry. There are a number of women who have been ordained and work as SDA pastors in a few areas (in defiance of the GC) and women function as elders in many parts of the world.

[tinka]

DB is right on, glad he did ..a woman's greatest work and help is in other areas. I do not consider woman or their talk that like wearing the pants of the pulpit. Most women give up their best talents to the home, children and security of well being of family to this big notion. They have given up greater talents to enter into masculine duties. EGW was a teacher, a "chosen" messanger and complier of the "Holy Spirit". She was willing to use her talents as "instructed". I never considered her a preacher. She was used to write.

[Murcielago]

EGW was ordained as a pastor in 1886 by the GC. She accepted the ordination and all of its subsequent renewals over the years.

[tinka]

She makes comment on that

[Murcielago]

Her acceptance of the ordination would seem to imply that she approved of the ordination of women as pastors, wouldn't it?

[tinka]

You will also see in this where church sometimes do their own thing and not the writing of EGW as shown below with quotes around "preaching credentials". Just like the wearing now of wedding rings in church manuel. No, EGW did not except preaching credentials although it was voted to give to her. Unless I am reading something wrong here. This came from voting and not EGW suggestions or writings.

Appendix C - Exhibits Relating to the Ordination of Women

From the Lifetime and Experience of Ellen G. White
     A PAPER PRESENTED AT THE MINISTERIAL MEETING AT THE 1990 GENERAL CONFERENCE SESSION. PREPARED BY THE WHITE ESTATE STAFF.  {DG 248.1}

     1. A RESOLUTION TO ORDAIN WOMEN WAS DISCUSSED AT THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OF 1881. NO ACTION WAS TAKEN. THE MINUTES INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING LINES: {DG 248.2}
     "RESOLVED, THAT FEMALES POSSESSING THE NECESSARY QUALIFICATIONS TO FILL THAT POSITION MAY, WITH PERFECT PROPRIETY, BE SET APART BY ORDINATION TO THE WORK OF THE CHRISTIAN MINISTRY. {DG 248.3}
     "THIS WAS DISCUSSED BY J. O. CORLISS, A. C. BOURDEAU, E. R. JONES, D. H. LAMSON, W. H. LITTLEJOHN, A. S. HUTCHINS, D. M. CANRIGHT, AND J. N. LOUGHBOROUGH, AND REFERRED TO THE GENERAL CONFERENCE COMMITTEE."--RH, DEC. 20, 1881.{DG 248.4}
     ELLEN WHITE DID NOT ATTEND THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OF 1881. HER HUSBAND DIED ON AUGUST 6 OF THAT YEAR. TWO WEEKS AFTER HIS DEATH SHE LEFT BATTLE CREEK, BOUND FOR CALIFORNIA. SHE DID NOT RETURN TO MICHIGAN UNTIL AUGUST OF 1883.{DG 248.5}

     2. FOR MANY YEARS ELLEN WHITE WAS VOTED MINISTERIAL CREDENTIALS BY THE MICHIGAN CONFERENCE (SEE E.G. RH, SEPT. 10, 1872),
249
AND THEN LATER BY THE GENERAL CONFERENCE. HOWEVER, SHE WAS NEVER ORDAINED BY HUMAN HANDS, NOR DID SHE EVER PERFORM A WEDDING, ORGANIZE A CHURCH, OR CONDUCT A BAPTISM.{DG 248.6}
     3. IN 1895 ELLEN WHITE RECOMMENDED THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN WHO WOULD GIVE THEMSELVES TO A DEACONESS-TYPE OF WORK:{DG 249.1}
     "Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church."--RH, July 9, 1895.{DG 249.2}
     A NUMBER OF WOMEN WERE ORDAINED AS DEACONESSES DURING ELLEN WHITE'S AUSTRALIAN MINISTRY. ON AUGUST 10, 1895, THE NOMINATING COMMITTEE AT THE ASHFIELD CHURCH IN SYDNEY RENDERED ITS REPORT, WHICH WAS APPROVED. THE CLERK'S MINUTES FOR THAT DATE STATE: "IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE ELECTION, THE OFFICERS WERE CALLED TO THE FRONT WHERE PASTORS CORLISS AND MCCULLAGH SET APART THE ELDER, DEACONS, [AND] DEACONESSES BY PRAYER AND THE LAYING ON OF HANDS."{DG 249.3}
     SEVERAL YEARS LATER, IN THE SAME CHURCH, W. C. WHITE OFFICIATED AT THE ORDINATION OF THE CHURCH OFFICERS. THE MINUTES OF THE ASHFIELD CHURCH FOR JANUARY 7, 1900, STATE: "THE PREVIOUS SABBATH OFFICERS HAD BEEN NOMINATED AND ACCEPTED FOR THE CURRENT YEAR, AND TODAY ELDER WHITE ORDAINED AND LAID HANDS ON THE ELDERS, DEACON, AND DEACONESSES.--AR, JAN. 16, 1986.{DG 249.4}

     4. WOMEN "LICENSED TO PREACH" BY THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH DURING ELLEN WHITE'S LIFETIME INCLUDED THE FOLLOWING:
   1878   ANNA FULTON      MINNESOTA
      ELLEN S. LANE      MICHIGAN
      JULIA OWEN         KENTUCKY-TENNESSEE
   1879   LIBBIE COLLINS      MINNESOTA
      HATTIE ENOCH      KANSAS

250
 
      LIBBIE FULTON      MINNESOTA
      LIZZIE POST         MINNESOTA
   1880   ANNA JOHNSON      MINNESOTA
   1881   IDA W. BALLENGER   ILLINOIS
      HELEN L. MORSE      ILLINOIS
   1884   RUIE HILL         KANSAS
   1886   IDA W. HIBBEN      ILLINOIS
   1887   MRS. S. E. PIERCE      VERMONT
   1893   FLORA PLUMMER      IOWA
   1894   MARGARET CARO      NEW ZEALAND
   1895   MRS. S. A. LINDSAY   NEW YORK
   1898    SAREPTA IRISH HENRY   GEN. CONF.
      LULU WIGHTMAN      NEW YORK
   1899   EDITH BARTLETT      BRITISH CONF.
   1900   HETTY HASKELL      GEN. CONF.
      MINA ROBINSON      BRITISH CONF.
   1901   CARRIE V. HANSEN      UTAH
      EMMA HAWKINS      IOWA
      MRS. E. R. WILLIAMS   MICHIGAN
   1902   MRS. S. N. HASKELL   GREATER NY
      MINNIE SYPE      OKLAHOMA
   1904   ALMA BJDIGG      FINLAND MISSION
      MRS. J. E. BOND      ARIZONA
      BERTHA E. JORGENSEN   SOUTH DAKOTA
   1910   PEARL FIELD         NEBRASKA
      MRS. URA SPRING      NEBRASKA
 
--GENERAL CONFERENCE ARCHIVES AND SDA YEARBOOKS {DG 249.5}

     SOME OF THE WOMEN LISTED ABOVE WERE EMPLOYED BY THE CHURCH. OTHERS, SUCH AS MARGARET CARO, WHO WAS A DENTIST, WERE SELF-SUPPORTING.{DG 250.1}

     5. ELLEN WHITE MADE THREE STATEMENTS WHICH ARE SOMETIMES CONSTRUED AS EVIDENCE THAT SHE SUPPORTED THE CONCEPT OF WOMEN AS ORDAINED GOSPEL MINISTERS.{DG 250.2}     IN 1898 SHE DECLARED THAT "there are women who should labor in the
251
gospel ministry" (Ev 472). THE CONTEXT OF THIS STATEMENT SEEMS TO INDICATE THAT SHE IS SPEAKING OF MINISTERS' WIVES. SHE WROTE:{DG 250.3}
     "Letters have come to me from several, asking my advice upon the question, Should ministes' wives adopt infant children? Would I advise them to do this kind of work. To some who were regarding this matter favorably, I answered, No; God would have you help your husband in his work. The Lord has not given you children of your own; His wisdom is not to be questioned. He knows what is best. Consecrate your powers to God as a Christian worker. You can help your husband in many ways. . . .{DG 251.1}
     "There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women. But the enemy would be pleased to have the women whom God could use to help hundreds binding up their time and strength on one helpless little mortal that requires constant care and attention."--5MR 325, 326.{DG 251.2}
     IN THE YEAR 1900 ELLEN WHITE PUBLISHED TESTIMONIES, VOLUME 6, WHICH INCLUDES A SECTION TITLED "THE CANVASSER A GOSPEL WORKER."  HERE THE AUTHOR STATES:{DG 251.3}
     "All who desire an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."--6T 322.{DG 251.4}
     FINALLY, IN SEPTEMBER 1903 ELLEN WHITE WROTE:
     "The Lord calls upon those connected with our sanitariums, publishing houses, and schools to teach the youth to do evangelistic work. Our time and energy must not be so largely employed in establishing sanitariums, food stores, and restaurants that other lines of work will be neglected. Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work should not be bound down to mechanical employment. {DG 251.5}
252
     "The youth should be encouraged to attend our training schools for Christian workers, which should become more and more like the schools of the prophets. These institutions have been established by the Lord, and if they are conducted in harmony with His purpose, the youth sent to them will quickly be prepared to engage in various lines of missionary work. Some will be trained to enter the field as missionary nurses, some as canvassers, and some as gospel ministers."--8T 229, 230.{DG 252.1}

     6. ELLEN WHITE MADE TWO STATEMENTS ABOUT HER OWN CALL TO SERVE THE LORD AS HIS MESSENGER. SHE DECLARED:{DG 252.2}     "At the age of 78 I am still toiling. We are all in the hands of the Lord. I trust in Him; for I know that He will never leave nor forsake those who put their trust in Him. I have committed myself to His keeping.{DG 252.3}
     "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry."--RH, July 26, 1906.{DG 252.4}
     "In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth."--RH, May 18, 1911.{DG 252.5}
     IT WILL BE RECALLED THAT ELLEN WHITE WAS GIVEN HER FIRST VISION IN DECEMBER 1844, IN PORTLAND, MAINE. SHORTLY THEREAFTER SHE WAS PROMPTED BY THE LORD TO TELL OTHERS WHAT SHE HAD SEEN.{DG 252.6}

     7. ELLEN WHITE DID NOT CONCERN HERSELF WITH WOMEN'S RIGHTS MOVEMENTS. WHEN SHE WAS URGED TO JOIN OTHERS IN THE CRUSADE FOR WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE, SHE DECLINED THE INVITATION. SHE WROTE TO HER HUSBAND:{DG 252.7}

[Murcielago]

Very interesting documentation. Thank you for posting it, Tinka. It represents a lot of our history. I still don't see where EGW disapproved of the ordination of women, though. She apparently didn't seek ordination, but she obviously didn't decline it either. She was notorious for reproving and stopping the men of the church when they took an action of which she disapproved, and she never did that over over her own ordination, and I am unaware of any instance where she did it regarding the ordination of any other woman.

[tinka]

There is tons of places she states what the sons and daughters best abilities are for the work or ministry of God. It always states teacher, deaconesses, help their husbands ministry but never does she state it is ok. If she did she would have to contradict herself in placing the women of highest regard for the welfare of family. She did state if it took going away to help her husband and if you had very good caregiver for short time was exceptable. Think of this scenario, her husband was a minister. God gave her the visions and abilities to write as God knew her humbleness and determination to help her husband as he had the labor end of it and her the messages and by doing with that attitude gave her more and more light. Never did she go for the limelight. She gave her messages. Her husband labored hard for it.

[Johann]

Some questions to stir up your pure [poor] minds:

1. Where in Scripture does it say that a pastor should be ordained?

2. What Scripture do we use when we ordain deacons?

3. Does it say that the deacons should be ordained?

4. What is the Scriptural difference between Apostles, ministers, deacons, deaconesses, elders, pastors, bishops?

5. From where do we get the distinction?

I have some more questions, but I'll wait. . .

[tinka]

Right on Johann,

It's man that seeks the titles, EGW did not nor even give hardly any recognition to any maybe a time but as we watch the church does many things that are not as we are supposed to do. We cannot look to the church organizations always being right on their boards when our last messages are not used.

That is what I am starting to see on Hope Channel too along of course mixed with good.

3abn made up their own thing to do and look what happened!!!

[princessdi]

Yes, good points, and questions, however, George's question has still not been answered.  Not to mention that at the time that Sis. White  was ordained, there were also no less than 30 other women who were "ordained to preach" at the time.  The church only took it's present stance after all these women had passed away.  You won't find where Sis. White spoke out against the ordination of women either.  She just didn't, and if she had you know the likes of DB would have found it and used it by now.

Also, one more question.  if God was agianst the ordination of women, then why would He choose a woman to rule Israel as a judge? Deborah was directly under His authority.   

I think we have it completely backwards, this time.  The world has entered the church in the form of sexism.

[Johann]

No answers to these questions yet?

Some questions to stir up your pure [poor] minds:

1. Where in Scripture does it say that a pastor should be ordained?

2. What Scripture do we use when we ordain deacons?

3. Does it say that the deacons should be ordained?

4. What is the Scriptural difference between Apostles, ministers, deacons, deaconesses, elders, pastors, bishops?

5. From where do we get the distinction?

I have some more questions, but I'll wait. . .

[tinka]

Yes, good points, and questions, however, George's question has still not been answered.  Not to mention that at the time that Sis. White  was ordained, there were also no less than 30 other women who were "ordained to preach" at the time.  The church only took it's present stance after all these women had passed away.  You won't find where Sis. White spoke out against the ordination of women either.  She just didn't, and if she had you know the likes of DB would have found it and used it by now.

Also, one more question.  if God was against the ordination of women, then why would He choose a woman to rule Israel as a judge? Deborah was directly under His authority.    

I think we have it completely backwards, this time.  The world has entered the church in the form of sexism.

Like Deborah and so was EGW.  He does the choosing

Di, read again very carefully, The SDA boards did the ordaining. Not EGW. That brings on the church not following her messages clearly and doing their thing. again they did not follow her direction. The same she finally had to come down on their fanaticism on the Health message. There is a constant history she had to write about concerning what people chose to do and justify under her messages.  She was not there to except ordination or had hands laid on her on nothing to the effect. Read the red print again and then evaluate without adding any justifications where the church was in order to do that. Even tho they did it..it was not her entire instructions through out. Women should be deaconesses and teachers helpers and bible workers.  She made many many times comment on the work of women. Also, Johann has asked very legit questions of actual answers in biblical scripture of which at the moment I have not run down. Maybe you can.

There are many many instances where the organized church has made their own rules away and against the SP.
Look at the effects of the man made rule for the church manual now for the wearing of gold, for marriage. I think it might be in volume 1 where this is not what we are supposed to be doing.

Now turn your TV on to Hope channel and watch the "Family Reunion" and tell me who on there follows SP as they flaunt the gold, jewelry, red fingernail polish, cherry berry lips of a clown, vanity fingernails, vanity hussy looking hair spiked and bleached with the roots all a show-en and if you really want to be entertained into laughter, just turn the sound of them off and watch the distorations of funny faces with their vanity of heathenistic reaching their hands up in disrespect to the God of heaven after we have been solemnly told about how to worship Him, even the angels veil their faces in His presence. We got a good laugh at the soundless funnies. Then they stood and clapped and clapped for theirselves. and you call that worship for God. Then a high five was given to completment theirselves after the "Dixie Chics" did their thing. What is this? What are we to portray to public view that Adventist are no different then anyother church in off the wall worship. Shall we imitate the public of all faiths and jerk them in that way. I do not think so. As this example will lose more souls then you want to be accounted for. I am just sick over this when I know that SDA's somewhere are capable of the best. I have heard them and I have seen them. One other thing, I see the camera men really catch all glimpses of these glamor points for viewers to see. Is it on purpose to show folly or show finally all goes and come on in??? It appears it is from the most liberal west coast gang.  Would you like to read about hand clapping and bring on the dancing? Just click it in the White EState Express. Hmmm, but who follows anything anymore it appears.

[Johann]

Was Ellen G. White ever ordained?

Not by man!

Seems like she claimed herself that she'd been ordained by God. The Brethren acted on that and gave her the needed credentials as an ordained minister.

[tinka]

That's maybe a good summary of it. But I would have to see where she claimed herself ordained as the only thing I remember is that she calls herself a "messenger".  I would have picked up on that immediately as it would have went against all else I had read.  I do not think she "needed" credentials. But they did do this as a gesture of her being a true messenger and their belief in her vision and revelation of understanding she presented. In her humbleness a way provided her not being there to except or have hands laid on her and her family said never did she do the duties of an ordained minister. So that pretty well sums it up. A pastor baptizes, marries, etc. She never did this. She made her duty very plain for herself and woman and men. Nothing can be presumed, added or taken away or justified under what the church did or did not do because they respected her as God's chosen. She relates herself quite different then an "ordained preacher". There is a reason for that and I must start to find some verses. Like Johann says in his questions. But we are given some directions for the organized church. There are some reservations though biblical that tell us about what leaders should be and do and that is about it more about how they should be. I believe they should be educated enough with hard work of study as too many non educated first emotional feelings  thinks this brings on the calling and they should get the job with hardly any understanding and then you get the snake handlers. I think in this day we have to have ordained ministers for other purposes. For legal marriages, and legal churches for tax reduction purposes and for the law of the land. But many a lay person does well if he is a well studied well versed student of the Bible. Then the people choose their leader instead of the leader choosing himself. EGW message was to bring on the 3rd angels message and this did not take ordination from the church by no means.