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[Bob Pickle]

Nowhere does it state "their wives" or anything like it.

1 Peter 3:7  Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

In this verse it is understood that the woman referred to belongs to the husband referred top, even without a possessive pronoun.

Colossians 3:19  Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

"Your" is supplied by the translators, but definitely called for in the above verse.

The critical text for Eph. 5:25 also does not have the possessive pronoun, though the Textus Receptus does.

In 1 Cor. 7:10, 11, 33, the possessive pronoun is also understood.

The question is whether the word should be translated "women" or "wives," rather than "deaconesses." If "women," then deaconesses would be intended if it is not trying to say what all women should be like. If "wives," then it would be referring to the wives of the deacons.

[Johann]

When I stated "nowhere" I was merely referring to 1 Tim. 3. It looks like we agree that "if" the word applies to women, then it means deaconesses. Again, where else would our pioneers have found their mandate to ordain deaconesses than here in 1 Tim. 3?

Another interesting text is 2 John. Here John calls himself the "presbyteros" or elder and not apostle. He addresses the letter to the "eklektei kyria" and her children. I just  happen to have the RSV on my desk at the moment where this is translated "elect lady". Is this  really what he says?

KYRIA is the feminine form of KYRIOS which is usually translated LORD or king. What is the feminine word in English? Wouldn't you say that QUEEN comes pretty close? Elder John is writing this letter not only to an elect lady, but to the elect queen of  the church? John could have said woman, but he used a different expression, and I believe this is the only place this feminine word is found in the Bible.

[Bob Pickle]

We do have Phoebe who is identified as a deaconess, and so we aren't dependent on a particular rendering of 1 Tim. 3.

Some have felt that Kuria in 2 Jn. was a proper name or some such. I don't know. It does appear in the LXX where the KJV says "mistress," referring to a lady who is like a master.

[princessdi]

Tinka, you gave quotes of EGW suggesting women for different things.  There is still the absence of her comments condemning the ordination of women.  Just because pastoring or preaching was not mentioned in those quotes given doesn't mean EGW was against women doing it just for the duties suggested in the quotes.  Also, what was the context of those quotes, etc.?   I am also glad to se that it has been established that ordination is not biblical, not a bad thing, just not biblical.

Sorry, Tinka, in the absense of a direct statement, we cannot say that she was for or against the ordination of womeon.  However, biblically, there is no reason why they cannot be ordained, as GodHimself placed some in authority to men, which is the real issue here.

I did and you just can't grasp it. nor the legal documents your so confused about. I really do not understand the time given you back on any post by anyone. end.

[tinka]

Di,

That quote was for Ian and not meant for you but still read your post.
I read most of the day today on this and still very convinced that there was a time during EGW day that the church was definitely doing their own thing. In fact she really came down hard. i rested awhile and then laid books down and couldn't remember which one it was in. Oh well, it doesn't matter because nothing you can do to change mind set of ones opinion or justifications.

But to make a whole picture of the state we are in I believe you can call it the "Omega" of the Adventist church as many different scenarios are portrayed to be ok.

Today I switched on Hope again hoping to see something good. There was a black women with great big earrings on yelling for all she was worth in what they called music. I think it must have been one of these Aussie programs. Not sure as I switched it off in utter amazement. I have no doubt now that Hope channel is showing and actually progressing in the "Omega" of the church.  It's here, nothing anyone can do about it. It's just a sick feeling and I am finished with it. and low and behold I found one thing that I can agree with DS. Unbeliveable, as I am now for the first time reading some documents that I have not read before. Some even are more incriminating but came across his statement on Hope channel. I agree to the hilt. amazing! But another thought! what makes him know that??? and not think anything else is wrong on his side of the fence. I am talking about the spending and hiding of money.

[inga]

I wonder whether the "real issue" is not that man has made "ordination" something that God did not.

Jesus clearly taught that he who would be great among us should be the most eager to serve -- not to rule over others, be they men or women. We are not to practice hierarchial authority, such as the "heathen" have.

Yet "ordination" is deemed to imply the bestowal of some sort of power or authority to rule over "lesser" members of the body of Christ.

The distinction between laity and clergy was unknown in apostolic times. In the Adventist church it is a holdover from from Catholicism -- a holdover the Reformers failed to reform. Although Luther taught the priesthood of all believers, he failed to implement the practical application of this doctrine. Thus, in many places, Adventist pastors exercise "priestly authority," much like Catholic priests. (I trust it is self-evident that this is not after Christ's direction.) That concept is also central to Samuele Bacchiocchi's argument against women being ordained. He points out that only men were able to be priests. What he failed to recognize is that after the cross, we have only one priest and one mediator between God and man -- the Man Christ Jesus who ministers in the heavenly sanctuary. Of all people, Adventists ought to recognize such fallacious arguments as those based on the OT priesthood to demonstrate that men are to rule the body of Christ.

IMO, we should altogether scrap "ordination" as it is now practiced (contrary to biblical principles), and go back to something closer to the NT model -- commissioning individuals for certain duties to which God has called them.

[Please forgive me if I do not respond further in this thread. I just happened to drop by ... ]

[sonshineonme]

Very well said, and I'm glad you stopped by. I agree with you completely.

I wonder whether the "real issue" is not that man has made "ordination" something that God did not.

Jesus clearly taught that he who would be great among us should be the most eager to serve -- not to rule over others, be they men or women. We are not to practice hierarchial authority, such as the "heathen" have.

Yet "ordination" is deemed to imply the bestowal of some sort of power or authority to rule over "lesser" members of the body of Christ.

The distinction between laity and clergy was unknown in apostolic times. In the Adventist church it is a holdover from from Catholicism -- a holdover the Reformers failed to reform. Although Luther taught the priesthood of all believers, he failed to implement the practical application of this doctrine. Thus, in many places, Adventist pastors exercise "priestly authority," much like Catholic priests. (I trust it is self-evident that this is not after Christ's direction.) That concept is also central to Samuele Bacchiocchi's argument against women being ordained. He points out that only men were able to be priests. What he failed to recognize is that after the cross, we have only one priest and one mediator between God and man -- the Man Christ Jesus who ministers in the heavenly sanctuary. Of all people, Adventists ought to recognize such fallacious arguments as those based on the OT priesthood to demonstrate that men are to rule the body of Christ.

IMO, we should altogether scrap "ordination" as it is now practiced (contrary to biblical principles), and go back to something closer to the NT model -- commissioning individuals for certain duties to which God has called them.

[Please forgive me if I do not respond further in this thread. I just happened to drop by ... ]

[Murcielago]

Very good points, Inga. We have institutionalized a number of rules that have no Biblical foundation. Like the Roman Catholic Church, we have established tradition as equal to scripture in many ways.

[Little Grasshopper]

The distinction between laity and clergy was unknown in apostolic times. In the Adventist church it is a holdover from from Catholicism -- a holdover the Reformers failed to reform.

Yes, Inga. This is the case.

Don't be a stranger.

[tinka]

Yes, that is a good idea except I think they did this so they knew who to pay since there was a big situation of this.

[princessdi]

Does HOPETV sell airtime to other ministries? That is what that sounds like to me.

Di,

That quote was for Ian and not meant for you but still read your post.
I read most of the day today on this and still very convinced that there was a time during EGW day that the church was definitely doing their own thing. In fact she really came down hard. i rested awhile and then laid books down and couldn't remember which one it was in. Oh well, it doesn't matter because nothing you can do to change mind set of ones opinion or justifications.

But to make a whole picture of the state we are in I believe you can call it the "Omega" of the Adventist church as many different scenarios are portrayed to be ok.

Today I switched on Hope again hoping to see something good. There was a black women with great big earrings on yelling for all she was worth in what they called music. I think it must have been one of these Aussie programs. Not sure as I switched it off in utter amazement. I have no doubt now that Hope channel is showing and actually progressing in the "Omega" of the church.  It's here, nothing anyone can do about it. It's just a sick feeling and I am finished with it. and low and behold I found one thing that I can agree with DS. Unbeliveable, as I am now for the first time reading some documents that I have not read before. Some even are more incriminating but came across his statement on Hope channel. I agree to the hilt. amazing! But another thought! what makes him know that??? and not think anything else is wrong on his side of the fence. I am talking about the spending and hiding of money.

[inga]

Does HOPETV sell airtime to other ministries? That is what that sounds like to me.

I highly doubt it.

What "it sounds like" is that Tinka didn't like the music she heard or the ear rings. That sort of thing tends to affect the way people describe music.  

Today I switched on Hope again hoping to see something good. There was a black women with great big earrings on yelling for all she was worth in what they called music. I think it must have been one of these Aussie programs.

[tinka]

What I was describing is a complete disrespect for the SP and actually what SDA's are supposed to believe.  There is not one good thing to come of this. The picture Is getting bigger and bigger of Hope channel going with the "Omega of the church".

[princessdi]

Well, Inga, I have spoken many times to my friend and sister in Christ, tinka, about indulging in the haterade.  Lately she has been doing much better, however, we know that folks often fall off the wagon on the road to recovery.....LOL!!!  Just teasing Tinka!   

That said, I believe Inga to be right.  We really have to be carefully about believing that God shares our likes, dislikes, preferences, etc.   i.e. "If I don't like it God must hate it, must be sin.   

I believe there is one other issue, but that would take this thread in a whole 'nother direction. 

Does HOPETV sell airtime to other ministries? That is what that sounds like to me.

I highly doubt it.

What "it sounds like" is that Tinka didn't like the music she heard or the ear rings. That sort of thing tends to affect the way people describe music.  

[princessdi]

What exactly is the "Omega of the church"?  The only Omega I know about is God being the Alpha and Omega, etc.  Readers Digest version please. I don't have a lot of PC time for ready a long dissertaion.

What I was describing is a complete disrespect for the SP and actually what SDA's are supposed to believe.  There is not one good thing to come of this. The picture Is getting bigger and bigger of Hope channel going with the "Omega of the church".