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[tinka]

Approach Harmony of Heavenly Choir.--Music forms a part of God's worship in the courts above. We should endeavor in our songs of praise to approach as nearly as possible to the harmony of the heavenly choirs. I have often been pained to hear untrained voices, pitched to the highest key, literally shrieking the sacred words of some hymn of praise. How inappropriate those sharp, rasping voices for the solemn,
                                                                            508
joyous worship of God. I long to stop my ears, or flee from the place, and I rejoice when the painful exercise is ended.  {Ev 507.5}
     Those who make singing a part of divine worship should select hymns with music appropriate to the occasion, not funeral notes, but cheerful, yet solemn melodies. The voice can and should be modulated, softened, and subdued.--Signs of the Times, June 22, 1882.  {Ev 508.1}
     With Heart and Understanding.--I saw that all should sing with the spirit and with the understanding also. God is not pleased with jargon and discord. Right is always more pleasing to Him than wrong. And the nearer the people of God can approach to correct, harmonious singing, the more is He glorified, the church benefited, and unbelievers favorably affected. --Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 146. (1857)  {Ev 508.2}
     Without Spirit and Understanding.--Many are singing beautiful songs in the meetings, songs of what they will do, and what they mean to do; but some do not do these things; they do not sing with the spirit and the understanding also. So in the reading of the Word of God, some are not benefited, because they do not take it into their very life, they do not practice it. --Review and Herald, Sept. 27, 1892.  {Ev 508.3}

             The Music Personnel

     Those Whose Hearts Are in the Effort.--In their efforts to reach the people, the Lord's messengers are not to follow the ways of the world. In the meetings that are held, they are not to depend on worldly singers and theatrical display to awaken an interest. How can those who have no interest in the Word of God,
                                                                            509
who have never read His Word with a sincere desire to understand its truths, be expected to sing with the spirit and the understanding? How can their hearts be in harmony with the words of sacred song? How can the heavenly choir join in music that is only a form?--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 143. (1909)  {Ev 508.4}
     Only Sweet, Simple Singing.--How can God be glorified when you depend for your singing on a worldly choir that sings for money? My brother, when you see these things in a right light, you will have in your meetings only sweet, simple singing, and you will ask the whole congregation to join in the song. What if among those present there are some whose voices are not so musical as the voices of others. When the singing is such that angels can unite with the singers, an impression is made on minds that singing from unsanctified lips cannot make.--Letter 190, 1902.  {Ev 509.1}
     Worldly Musicians.--Do not hire worldly musicians if this can possibly be avoided. Gather together singers who will sing with the spirit and with the understanding also. The extra display which you sometimes make entails unnecessary expense, which the brethren should not be asked to meet; and you will find that after a time unbelievers will not be willing to give money to meet these expenses.--Letter 51, 1902.  {Ev 509.2}
     Accepting Musical Help Offered.--In the meetings held the singing should not be neglected. God can be glorified by this part of the service. And when singers offer their services, they should be accepted. But money should not be used to hire singers. Often the singing of simple hymns by the congregation has a charm that is not possessed by the singing of a choir, however skilled it may be.--Letter 49, 1902.
                                                                            510
 {Ev 509.3}
     Music That Offends God.--Display is not religion nor sanctification. There is nothing more offensive in God's sight than a display of instrumental music when those taking part are not consecrated, are not making melody in their hearts to the Lord. The offering most sweet and acceptable in God's sight is a heart made humble by self-denial, by lifting the cross and following Jesus.  {Ev 510.1}
     We have no time now to spend in seeking those things that only please the senses. Close heart searching is needed. With tears and heartbroken confession we need to draw nigh to God that He may draw nigh to us.--Review and Herald, Nov. 14, 1899.  {Ev 510.2}
     God Glorified.--God is glorified by songs of praise from a pure heart filled with love and devotion to Him.--Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 509. (1867)  {Ev 510.3}

               Timely Cautions

     Qualities of Good Music.--Great improvement can be made in singing. Some think that the louder they sing the more music they make; but noise is not music. Good singing is like the music of the birds--subdued and melodious.  {Ev 510.4}
     In some of our churches I have heard solos that were altogether unsuitable for the service of the Lord's house. The long-drawn-out notes and the peculiar sounds common in operatic singing are not pleasing to the angels. They delight to hear the simple songs of praise sung in a natural tone. The songs in which every word is uttered clearly, in a musical tone, are the songs that they join us in singing. They take up the refrain that is sung from the heart with the spirit and the understanding.--Manuscript 91, 1903.
                                                                            511
 {Ev 510.5}
     Proper Balance in Time Given to Singing.-- Improvements can be made in our manner of conducting camp meetings, so that all who attend may receive more direct labor. There are some social meetings held in the large tent, where all assemble for worship; but these are so large that only a small number can take part, and many speak so low that but few can hear them. . . . In some instances much time was devoted to singing. There was a long hymn before prayer, a long hymn after prayer, and much singing interspersed all through the meeting. Thus golden moments were used unwisely, and not one-half the good was done that might have been realized had these precious seasons been properly managed.-- Review and Herald, Nov. 27, 1883.  {Ev 511.1}
     Ceremony and Display.--Form and ceremony do not constitute the kingdom of God. Ceremonies become multitudinous and extravagant as the vital principles of the kingdom of God are lost. But it is not form and ceremony that Christ requires. He hungers to receive from His vineyard fruit in holiness and unselfishness, deeds of goodness, mercy, and truth.  {Ev 511.2}
     Gorgeous apparel, fine singing, and instrumental music in the church do not call forth the songs of the angel choir. In the sight of God these things are like the branches of the unfruitful fig tree which bore nothing but pretentious leaves. Christ looks for fruit, for principles of goodness and sympathy and love. These are the principles of heaven, and when they are revealed in the lives of human beings, we may know that Christ is formed within, the hope and glory. A congregation may be the poorest in the land, without music or outward show, but if it possesses these principles, the members can sing, for the joy of Christ is
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in their souls, and this they can offer as a sweet oblation to God.--Manuscript 123, 1899.  {Ev 511.3}
     Music Acceptable to God.--The superfluities which have been brought into the worship in _____ must be strenuously avoided. . . . Music is acceptable to God only when the heart is sanctified and made soft and holy by its facilities. But many who delight in music know nothing of making melody in their hearts to the Lord. Their heart is gone "after their idols." --Letter 198, 1899.  {Ev 512.1}
     A Misuse of Music.--When professing Christians reach the high standard which it is their privilege to reach, the simplicity of Christ will be maintained in all their worship. Forms and ceremonies and musical accomplishments are not the strength of the church. Yet these things have taken the place God should have, even as they did in the worship of the Jews.  {Ev 512.2}
     The Lord has revealed to me that when the heart is cleansed and sanctified, and the members of the church are partakers of the divine nature, a power will go forth from the church, who believe the truth, that will cause melody in the heart. Men and women will not then depend upon their instrumental music but on the power and grace of God, which will give fullness of joy. There is a work to be done in clearing away the rubbish which has been brought into the church. . . .  {Ev 512.3}
     This message is not only for the church at _____, but for every other church that has followed her example.--Manuscript 157, 1899.  {Ev 512.4}

[princessdi]

Now there is a problem in the first paragraph.  How can we come close to what is done in heaven if we dont' know what it sounds like?  Actually the rest, I totally agree.  You and I just have different ideas of what is reverent, joyful, appropriate praise and worship.  That is ok, as long as we are not insisting that our own personal preferences are not also God's preferences. 

[inga]

Now there is a problem in the first paragraph.  How can we come close to what is done in heaven if we dont' know what it sounds like?

But, Di, that's easy enough. I have a feeling that anyone who posts such quotes on a public forum knows exactly what the music of heaven sounds like!!   You just need to ask! 

Personally, I believe that Ellen White was dealing with principles here, and the context gives us some idea of the principle. The opposite of the "harmony of heaven," according to Ellen White is "untrained voices, pitched to the highest key, literally shrieking the sacred words of some hymn of praise. How inappropriate those sharp, rasping voices for the solemn joyous worship of God."

Fortunately or unfortunately, her guide lines say absolutely nothing about what style of music is appropriate for worship. I rather suspect that it various, according to cultural context.

My husband preached for evangelism in India, and, at first, he found the music quite painful to his western ears, but he wanted to learn to appreciate it. The people clapped in time to the music, and the only musical instruments were several sizable (for hand drums) hand drums in the congregation. After he figured out that the rhythm was syncopated, he "got it." Then he asked his translator to translate the words, and they were inspiring and worshipful. After a while, even the music itself began to sound better to his ears. It's all a matter of conditioning.

Since God calls to Himself people from all cultures of the world, I suspect that He gladly accepts joyous worship in all sorts of cultural expressions. I also  figure that it is a bit arrogant of a small group of Christians with northern European cultural roots to assume that our style of music is the music of heaven.

[I trust that I am permitted to say this because I have a purely northern European pedigree. In fact I was born there.]

[Little Grasshopper]

Since God calls to Himself people from all cultures of the world, I suspect that He gladly accepts joyous worship in all sorts of cultural expressions. I also  figure that it is a bit arrogant of a small group of Christians with northern European cultural roots to assume that our style of music is the music of heaven.

[I trust that I am permitted to say this because I have a purely northern European pedigree. In fact I was born there.]

I feel the same way about New Orleans Jazz and music of American Indian cultures.  In the case of Jazz, Ken Burns has completed a notable series on Jazz for educational television.  The Ken Burns series is also available in many public libraries in a DVD collection.  I highly recommend the PBS series.

http://www.pbs.org/jazz/

I especially like gospel Jazz.

Little Grasshopper

[tinka]

Anyone has the priviledge of feeling how ever they want or choose. Jazz needs to be left in the bar for dancing.  Your problem is not with me, it is with your likes and dislikes of below counsel.

  Beauty, Pathos, and Power--Music can be a great power for good; yet we do not make the most of this branch of worship. The singing is generally done from impulse or to meet special cases, and at other times those who sing are left to blunder along, and the music loses its proper effect upon the minds of those present. Music should have beauty, pathos, and power. Let the voices be lifted in songs of praise and devotion. Call to your aid, if practicable, instrumental music, and let the glorious harmony ascend to God, an acceptable offering.  {VSS 415.1}

     But it is sometimes more difficult to discipline the singers and keep them in working order, than to improve the habits of praying and exhorting. Many want to do things after their own style; they object to consultation, and are impatient under leadership. Well-matured plans are needed in the service of God. Common sense is an excellent thing in the worship of the Lord.--Ev 505.  {VSS 415.2}
     Characteristics of Good Singing--Great improvement can be made in singing. Some think that the louder they sing the more music they make; but noise is not music. Good singing is like the music of the birds--subdued and melodious.
                                                                            416
 {VSS 415.3}
     In some of our churches I have heard solos that were altogether unsuitable for the service in the Lord's house. The long-drawn-out notes and the peculiar sounds common in operatic singing are not pleasing to the angels. They delight to hear the simple songs of praise sung in a natural tone. The songs in which every word is uttered clearly, in a musical tone, are the songs that they join us in singing. They take up the refrain that is sung from the heart with the spirit and the understanding.--Ev 510.  {VSS 416.1}

     Solemnity and Awe--The melody of song, poured forth from many hearts in clear, distinct utterance, is one of God's instrumentalities in the work of saving souls. All the service should be conducted with solemnity and awe, as if in the visible presence of the Master of assemblies.--5T 493.  {VSS 416.2}

Chap. 67 - Wrong Use of the Voice in Music
-

     Bedlam of Noise--The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing.  {VSS 417.1}
     The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit.  {VSS 417.2}
     The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time. Better never have the worship of God blended with music than to use musical instruments to do the work which last January was represented to me would be brought into our camp meetings. The truth for this time needs nothing of this kind in its work of converting souls. A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a                                                                              418
carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit's working. . . .  {VSS 417.3}
     No encouragement should be given to this kind of worship. The same kind of influence came in after the passing of the time in 1844. The same kind of representations were made. Men became excited, and were worked by a power thought to be the power of God.--2SM 36, 37.  {VSS 418.1}

     Satan's Snare--The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with such a confusion of noise and multitude of sounds as passed before me last January. Satan works amid the din and confusion of such music, which, properly conducted, would be a praise and glory to God. He makes its effect like the poison sting of the serpent.  {VSS 418.2}
     Those things which have been in the past will be in the future. Satan will make music a snare by the way in which it is conducted.--2SM 37, 38.  {VSS 418.3}     Songs to Make Angels Weep--There has been a class of social gatherings in of an entirely different character, parties of pleasure that have been a disgrace to our institutions and to the church. They encourage pride of dress, pride of appearance, self-gratification, hilarity, and trifling. Satan is entertained as an honored guest, and takes possession of those who patronize these gatherings.  {VSS 418.4}

     A view of one such company was presented to me, where were assembled those who profess to believe the truth. One was seated at the instrument of music, and such songs were poured forth as made
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the watching angels weep. There was mirth, there was coarse laughter, there was abundance of enthusiasm, and a kind of inspiration; but the joy was such as Satan only is able to create. This is an enthusiasm and infatuation of which all who love God will be ashamed. It prepares the participants for unholy thought and action. I have reason to think that some who were engaged in that scene heartily repented of the shameful performance.--CT 339.  {VSS 418.5}
{VSS 419.2}
     Music, when not abused, is a great blessing; but when put to a wrong use, it is a terrible curse. It excites, but does not impart that strength and courage which the Christian can find only at the throne of grace while humbly making known his wants and with strong cries and tears pleading for heavenly strength to be fortified against the powerful temptations of the evil one. Satan is leading the young captive. Oh, what can I say to lead them to break his power of infatuation! He is a skillful charmer, luring them on to perdition. --1T 496, 497.  {VSS 420.1}

Forbidden Pleasures--What a contrast between the ancient custom and the uses to which music is now too often devoted! How many employ this gift to exalt self, instead of using it to glorify God! A love for music leads the unwary to unite with world-lovers in pleasure-gatherings where God has forbidden His children to go. Thus that which is a great blessing when rightly used, becomes one of
                                                                            422
the most successful agencies by which Satan allures the mind from duty and from the contemplation of eternal things.--PP 594.  {VSS 421.4}     Ambition for Display--Musical entertainments which, if conducted properly, will do no harm, are often a source of evil. In the present state of society, with the low morals of not only youth but those of age and experience, there is great danger of becoming careless, and giving especial attention to favorites, and thus creating envy, jealousies, and evil surmisings. Musical talent too often fosters pride and ambition for display, and singers have but little thought of the worship of God. Instead of leading minds to remembering God, it often causes them to forget Him.--Lt 6a, 1890.  {VSS 422.1}
     
     God's Choice of Singing--Singing is just as much the worship of God in a religious meeting as speaking, and any oddity or peculiarity cultivated attracts the
                                                                            423
attention of the people and destroys the serious, solemn impression which should be the result of sacred music. Anything strange and eccentric in singing detracts from the seriousness and sacredness of religious service.  {VSS 422.3}

     Bodily exercise profiteth little. Everything that is connected in any way with religious worship should be dignified, solemn, and impressive. God is not pleased when ministers professing to be Christ's representatives so misrepresent Christ as to throw the body into acting attitudes, making undignified and coarse gestures, unrefined, coarse gesticulations. All this amuses, and will excite the curiosity of those who wish to see strange, odd, and exciting things, but these things will not elevate the minds and hearts of those who witness them.  {VSS 423.1}{VSS 423.2}
     Music is of heavenly origin. There is great power in music. It was music from the angelic throng that thrilled the hearts of the shepherds on Bethlehem's plains and swept round the world. It is in music
                                                                            425
that our praises rise to Him who is the embodiment of purity and harmony. It is with music and songs of victory that the redeemed shall finally enter upon the immortal reward.  {VSS 424.4}
     There is something peculiarly sacred in the human voice. Its harmony and its subdued and heaven-inspired pathos exceeds every musical instrument. Vocal music is one of God's gifts to men, an instrument that cannot be surpassed or equaled when God's love abounds in the soul. Singing with the spirit and the understanding also is a great addition to devotional services in the house of God.  {VSS 425.1}
     How this gift has been debased! When sanctified and refined it would accomplish great good in breaking down the barriers of prejudice and hardhearted unbelief, and would be the means of converting souls. It is not enough to understand the rudiments of singing, but with the understanding, with the knowledge, must be such a connection with heaven that angels can sing through us.  {VSS 425.2}



Music Is Made a Snare

     The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, [THESE COMMENTS WERE MADE IN CONNECTION WITH THE "HOLY FLESH" MOVEMENT AT THE INDIANA CAMP MEETING OF 1890. FOR FURTHER DETAILS, SEE SELECTED MESSAGES, BOOK 2, PP. 31-39.] the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. . . .  {LDE 159.1}
     A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit's working. . . . Those things which have been in the past will be in the future. Satan will make music a snare by the way in which it is conducted.--2SM 36, 38 (1900).  {LDE 159.2}
     Let us give no place to strange exercisings, which really take the mind away from the deep movings of the Holy Spirit. God's work is ever characterized by calmness and dignity.--2SM 42 (1908).  {LDE 159.3}

[princessdi]

Tinka, once again, your post is shy on actually what "God" likes or approves of, and why type of music is played/sang in Heaven  I believe Inga is more correct, in that He created all people, I am sure he appreciates each one's offering of praise and worship. Especially since it is not going to sound that same in every region of each country, let alone all over the world.

As for EGW, Inga is right, she was talking about musicians/singers being unskilled, and taking music/praise/worship as a serious part of God's work, and true ministry.  He established it that way when the Levites were also the musicians.  The priests were the musicians for the COI, and He often used the power of their praise and worship in battles, even to win wars.

Actually, let me correct myself. Tinka, you highlighted the wrong portions of your posted quotes, and they were taken out of context.  in context with the rest of the statements, they closer resemble the points  that the rest of us are making.

[Johann]

It may seem strange how music and hymns change with time and age. It seems like Martin Luther used some of the pop melodies of his ages and wrote Christian lyrics for them so that the common people could join and sing. Today we may sing those pop tunes with great reverence in conservative churches.

Some of the gospel hymns which seemed almost outrageous in my childhood are regarded as good classic hymns of praise even by senior conservative Christians today.

When I played records of the Kings Heralds and similar singers which I brought with me to Europe back in the fifties some of the senior church members requested I refrain from using such worldly music in our church.

[tinka]

It is not hard to understand the words, ---soft, melodious, understandable, harmoney together as the choirs. You have the choice of making anything out of it you want including, jazz, religious rock, mumbo jumbo, or what ever makes you cick. I am cultured in music and know what the good women meant.  I put all the above statements, so it could be referenced to all things so as not to be justified into what ever floats.But that did not work either as it really is impossible for some to understand that she was referring to a way for worship to God and not to ones self. If you all can't see it for what she spoke I might add I feel blessed that I understand what God requires for sacred, holy music in the context of what and how she speaks of it.  I may have mistakenly colored some wrong sentences but then propably no one either took the time to read the whole thing as I am sure it is of no interest to self serving music lovers. I do not care what the ages did back then because I live in the one now and EGW states then and in the future this huge existing problem will worsen and I have witnessed exactely what she says. Its on Hope Channel in maximum strength.

[Little Grasshopper]

It is not hard to understand the words, ---soft, melodious, understandable, harmoney together as the choirs. You have the choice of making anything out of it you want including, jazz, religious rock, mumbo jumbo, or what ever makes you cick. I am cultured in music and know what the good women meant.  I put all the above statements, so it could be referenced to all things so as not to be justified into what ever floats.But that did not work either as it really is impossible for some to understand that she was referring to a way for worship to God and not to ones self. If you all can't see it for what she spoke I might add I feel blessed that I understand what God requires for sacred, holy music in the context of what and how she speaks of it.  I may have mistakenly colored some wrong sentences but then probably no one either took the time to read the whole thing as I am sure it is of no interest to self serving music lovers. I do not care what the ages did back then because I live in the one now and EGW states then and in the future this huge existing problem will worsen and I have witnessed exactly what she says. Its on Hope Channel in maximum strength.

I agree with the sentiments  that are behind your point of view.  I am pleased that you are blessed by an understanding of what you know God requires.

I think,  however, it is important to remember that Ellen White died in July, 1915, and that jazz didn't come into existence until after 1917.

I'm sure, Tinka, that you don't show up for church wearing the same clothing of 1915.  I doubt you can even buy a whale-bone corset, and such.   And Scarlet O'Hara's hoop skirt, with the multiple petticoats, is gone as well.  I doubt the men show up for church with a long beard and looking like Abraham Lincoln in a stove top hat.   The outhouses behind the churches are gone, too.  Men and women no longer enter the church through separate doors, as they did in Washington, New Hampshire.

Unless we are Amish, and still use a horse and buggy, everything changes.   If we don't move on, we get labeled as being "counter-cultural" and our efforts at evangelism  are actually diminished.

As for your dancing comment,  if I were to take dancing lessons, I would not choose jazz. I think jazz would be difficult for a beginner to dance to.  For music, I would probably choose the Blue Danube Waltz by Johann Strauss, or something in the classical realm.  I don't drink, so I'm sure I would never be doing a waltz in a bar.

In addition to gospel jazz, I also like country gospel.  Tinka, it all depends what speaks to your heart. However, I don't think it's realistic for us to live in the year 1915, the year Ellen White put down her pen, and put ourselves into a cultural straitjacket that  culminates in that year.   However, I did read what you wrote and understand your reasoning behind it.

LG.

[tinka]

Little Grasshopper,
Thank you for comment, Never did I say that I did not like some of the versions you speak of. I like different era music,  folk, country, and yes the hardest for me as been the opera with the beautiful tones of masculine that get me on emotions and styles but I already mentioned my ethnic likes of background music somewhere else on these posts that sets my spirit into happy jolly feelings. But the day I hear and they produce the sound of polka in the church, I won't be going back.  That is what I am trying to explain and referring too. I do like music of all kinds. Just don't mix it for the worsip to God. That is a whole different scenario to connect and so special a time to give to Him without all man mades inner character's of all wordly actions of hulabaloo. We must conform ourselves to please God and not ourselves. EGW explains what is exceptable to Him and how we can connect in Holiness with our hearts. My beef is tring to mingle it all because we like it and to attract other people with it into the church when mostly she explains it is just display. I am a 50's person but keeping myself in check for so long but now that I have can honestly say I've overcome it. What did Elvis do for you???  What didn't he do? irresistable!! and what do I move on to?? It's rewarding if you ever honestly connect just once. Once EGW saw things other then what is in this sinful world she did not want to come back and that is how it is. How one feels that they connect is another matter. Most go for emotional trips. Others speak in tongues, others get into the  "holy roll"  Others please God for Him as we are instructed by EGW visual accounts. I mentioned a prime example last Sabbath on Hope channel with the violin music that was the talent was used for God only as it was displayed by a very young man named Michlen Lai Peng (not sure of spelling).
disaplined in all area's coming into the presence of worship to God. Too bad if no one got to see that. The connection of Holy Spirit was visible.

[Little Grasshopper]

Little Grasshopper,
Thank you for comment, Never did I say that I did not like some of the versions you speak of. I like different era music,  folk, country, and yes the hardest for me as been the opera with the beautiful tones of masculine that get me on emotions and styles but I already mentioned my ethnic likes of background music somewhere else on these posts that sets my spirit into happy jolly feelings. But the day I hear and they produce the sound of polka in the church, I won't be going back.  That is what I am trying to explain and referring too. I do like music of all kinds. Just don't mix it for the worship to God. 

I've been thinking about my posts today, and I was thinking to myself, "Probably what I mean to say is elements of jazz, rather than jazz, itself."   We borrow things.  For instance, the languages that people speak are borrowed from previous speakers of that language.  Even the regional accent we speak will betray our original place of birth.

I also find that that hybrid plants in the garden often grow better than the original parents.  The hybridizer takes little traits from one plant, crosses it with another, and comes up with something grand.

Therefore, in the area of music, I'm really talking about music that has elements of various kinds of music -- sort of a hybrid.  I would certainly agree that we don't want to turn the church service into something that resembles Mardi Gras in New Orleans.   And, yes, I think we can leave those purple shoes Elvis used to wear in the closet.

I also don't like to see pianists who play the piano as though they are painfully squeezing the last drop of juice out of an orange, with their eyes opening and closing as their bodies weave on the piano bench. 

LG

[tinka]

Yes my exact sediments, but Michlen L. if anyone could observed had no expressions what so ever as his talent was humbly given back to the creator.  (It appeared). Seemed his whole being was given to the worship of God. It was so different then most performers. It has shown he has been taught complete discipline in this manner. He looked very young. He played the violin.

As a gardner myself, the hybrid cannot reproduce for the reason of marketing seeds.  All though the looks are great, the value is not there as it was created. You might refer this to the statement  "the Oak is in the Acorn" I constantly look for Heirloom seeds. See in "Recipe thread" Ballad of the Garden under Tinka presented to me by son-in-law.

[princessdi]

Exactly, Johann!  The King's Heralds?  LOL!!!  They bring back fond memories of Ingathering and caroling.........Those were the days!

It may seem strange how music and hymns change with time and age. It seems like Martin Luther used some of the pop melodies of his ages and wrote Christian lyrics for them so that the common people could join and sing. Today we may sing those pop tunes with great reverence in conservative churches.

Some of the gospel hymns which seemed almost outrageous in my childhood are regarded as good classic hymns of praise even by senior conservative Christians today.

When I played records of the Kings Heralds and similar singers which I brought with me to Europe back in the fifties some of the senior church members requested I refrain from using such worldly music in our church.

[Johann]

Now there is a problem in the first paragraph.  How can we come close to what is done in heaven if we dont' know what it sounds like?

But, Di, that's easy enough. I have a feeling that anyone who posts such quotes on a public forum knows exactly what the music of heaven sounds like!!   You just need to ask! 

Personally, I believe that Ellen White was dealing with principles here, and the context gives us some idea of the principle. The opposite of the "harmony of heaven," according to Ellen White is "untrained voices, pitched to the highest key, literally shrieking the sacred words of some hymn of praise. How inappropriate those sharp, rasping voices for the solemn joyous worship of God."

Fortunately or unfortunately, her guide lines say absolutely nothing about what style of music is appropriate for worship. I rather suspect that it various, according to cultural context.

My husband preached for evangelism in India, and, at first, he found the music quite painful to his western ears, but he wanted to learn to appreciate it. The people clapped in time to the music, and the only musical instruments were several sizable (for hand drums) hand drums in the congregation. After he figured out that the rhythm was syncopated, he "got it." Then he asked his translator to translate the words, and they were inspiring and worshipful. After a while, even the music itself began to sound better to his ears. It's all a matter of conditioning.

Since God calls to Himself people from all cultures of the world, I suspect that He gladly accepts joyous worship in all sorts of cultural expressions. I also  figure that it is a bit arrogant of a small group of Christians with northern European cultural roots to assume that our style of music is the music of heaven.

[I trust that I am permitted to say this because I have a purely northern European pedigree. In fact I was born there.]

 

[Johann]

Linda honored by SDA leaders at the Media Center 

This past Friday and Sabbath there was a celebration in Simi Valley at the SDA Media Center of the 10th anniversary of Spanish TV programming. These Spanish programs actually started 10 years ago on 3ABN with Sandra Juarez and the encouragement of Linda Shelton.

Since these two ladies have been deleted from the history books at 3ABN General Conference leaders now honored Linda and Sandra at this convention. People at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists have not forgotten what happened ten years ago.

We congratulate Sandra, Linda, and the Spanish staff on HOPE. The real history will not be forgotten.