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[Bob Pickle]

Danny Shelton told him that it wasn't about he, Danny Shelton and it wasn't about Linda Shelton it was about the ministry of 3ABN and putting the ministry and what was right first. He didn't and still doesn't believe that.

Well, then, why didn't Danny Shelton practice what he preached? Why did he cover up the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton in 2003, the year before the divorce? That wasn't right, and that wasn't putting the ministry first.

And why didn't Danny Shelton do the godly thing at the end of 2006 when this corruption came to light? Why didn't he simply apologize from the heart, and resign? That would have been right, and that would have put 3ABN's ministry first.

If any of the board members had opposed his resignation, he could have simply told them, "Don't be so stupid."

Then again, Danny Shelton's concern has been Danny Shelton, not 3ABN. Otherwise, he wouldn't have siphoned off about $749,000 to $809,000 from 2005 to 2007.

[Bob Pickle]

Well, Junebug, since you did leave, I will respond......I will definitely agree that there is probably nothing more to the "hidden assets of DS and 3ABN"(at least nothing Bob can find).

Problem is, Di, I can't tell you what I found in the Remnant documents, so you don't know what I did or did not find. But if some media outlet wanted to, they could probably petition the court to see the documents and affidavit we filed with the First Circuit.

[Johann]

Johann, for being a retired Pastor, what you said above was really not very representative.

Junebug, Pastor Johann has spent 50 years of ministry in the Seventh-day Adventist church in seven different countries; he has the perspective to make valid observations about what he observed going on at 3ABN while he was there.

He certainly has a right to give his point of view and opinion on what he personally saw or experienced. I have never had a problem with that. As to whether it is valid or not, well that depends on whether the facts support it, and looking at what he has to say in context. One must also consider what all (not just Johann) observed and experienced and what their testimony is about those same things.

My problem with Johann's testimony is that he really has very little to say about what he observed while at 3abn, as he was very rarely even there. Most of what he has to say came from Linda's telling him these things while he was far off in another country. he says he was in constant contact. So what? He didn't witness these things himself. He simply believed what she told him and acted on it, and repeated them. He also refused to believe Walt Thompson, Danny Shelton or anyone else as he interpreted all they had to say and do based on what Linda and even Darrell Mundall told him.

Who told you this? Who are you, and what did you experience? There  are a number of untruths in what you have stated here.

I have hardly any information from Linda Shelton nor Darrell Mundall in comparison with information gained from Walt Thompson and Danny Shelton himself.

Were you in Norway when Linda was there? What did you experience during her stay there? False rumors of what happened there started all of this. And then you dare claiming that I did not experience anything myself. Your claims make you untrustworthy.

When I later on different occasions confronted a couple of members of the board with what I had experienced I was told that what really happened did not matter. Their only concern was that, according to their opinion, 3ABN could not go on without Danny Shelton, and therefore it made no difference who was telling the truth. I also have an e-mail from Danny himself where he claims that the truth is only what he thinks will benefit himself - and thereby 3ABN.

He has made a case and tells the story of being fired for not saying what Danny Shelton told him to, that may be true to a fault. Danny Shelton told him that it wasn't about he, Danny Shelton and it wasn't about Linda Shelton it was about the ministry of 3ABN and putting the ministry and what was right first. He didn't and still doesn't believe that.

Who is "he" here? Danny Shelton?

This is my observation and I believe it to be just as valid and appropriate as Artiste trusts that Johann's is.

3D

And what is your observation?

[Johann]

I'd do anything to protect and support a ministry that is doing the Lord's work. But when a ministry with lofty claims uses lies and false rumors to demolish one of it's co-workers, then my support comes to an end.

In spite of what some claim, I tried in vain to help both Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, John Lomacang, and others to see what the Lord requires of them to do, and what is the Christian way to handle such issues. It was when they refused to listen that I shared my concern with leaders of our Church and others.

[princessdi]

However, my point is that the IRS looked over all of the documents, right, and they did not find anything out of line, not even worth a fine or slap on the wrist.  What do you believe you found there?  It really doesnt' make a difference, because you cannot tell

Problem is, Di, I can't tell you what I found in the Remnant documents, so you don't know what I did or did not find. But if some media outlet wanted to, they could probably petition the court to see the documents and affidavit we filed with the First Circuit.

[Artiste]

I'd do anything to protect and support a ministry that is doing the Lord's work. But when a ministry with lofty claims uses lies and false rumors to demolish one of it's co-workers, then my support comes to an end.

In spite of what some claim, I tried in vain to help both Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, John Lomacang, and others to see what the Lord requires of them to do, and what is the Christian way to handle such issues. It was when they refused to listen that I shared my concern with leaders of our Church and others.

Makes a lot of sense, Johann.

[Bob Pickle]

Di, I quote here from pp. 11-12 of http://www.3abnvjoy.com/1st-cir-08-2457/1st-cir-08-2457-appellants-motion-to-enlarge-record-11-19-07.pdf:

"The Remnant documents decisively address the issue of the possibility of IRS exoneration, since they prove conclusively that Shelton received kickbacks and sought to conceal his income. One detail in particular would be of special interest to the IRS, destroying any chance of exoneration. (Pickle Aff. pp. 7–9 at ¶¶ 29, 32)."

We heard that 3ABN or some of its directors paid a huge amount to the IRS. They wouldn't have done so if the IRS hadn't found anything out of line.

However, my point is that the IRS looked over all of the documents, right, and they did not find anything out of line, not even worth a fine or slap on the wrist.  What do you believe you found there?  It really doesnt' make a difference, because you cannot tell

Problem is, Di, I can't tell you what I found in the Remnant documents, so you don't know what I did or did not find. But if some media outlet wanted to, they could probably petition the court to see the documents and affidavit we filed with the First Circuit.

[Artiste]

We heard that 3ABN or some of its directors paid a huge amount to the IRS. They wouldn't have done so if the IRS hadn't found anything out of line.

But I thought they said that nothing had to be paid to the IRS.

[Daryl Fawcett]

If they had to pay out such a huge amount to the IRS, wouldn't this show up in a future financial report?

We heard that 3ABN or some of its directors paid a huge amount to the IRS. They wouldn't have done so if the IRS hadn't found anything out of line.

But I thought they said that nothing had to be paid to the IRS.

[Pat Williams]

We heard that 3ABN or some of its directors paid a huge amount to the IRS. They wouldn't have done so if the IRS hadn't found anything out of line.

But I thought they said that nothing had to be paid to the IRS.

You are correct, Artiste. They did and do say that.
Mr Pickle is again only reporting what he heard. (repeating gossip) In this instance his source(s) are wrong and he is bearing false witness.

If anything had been found out of line as Mr Pickle claims must be the case and if 3ABN had to pay a huge amount as Mr Pickle is also claiming? Amended filings would have been required along with the payment of that huge amount. There are none.

[Pat Williams]

Johann, for being a retired Pastor, what you said above was really not very representative.

Junebug, Pastor Johann has spent 50 years of ministry in the Seventh-day Adventist church in seven different countries; he has the perspective to make valid observations about what he observed going on at 3ABN while he was there.

He certainly has a right to give his point of view and opinion on what he personally saw or experienced. I have never had a problem with that. As to whether it is valid or not, well that depends on whether the facts support it, and looking at what he has to say in context. One must also consider what all (not just Johann) observed and experienced and what their testimony is about those same things.

My problem with Johann's testimony is that he really has very little to say about what he observed while at 3abn, as he was very rarely even there. Most of what he has to say came from Linda's telling him these things while he was far off in another country. he says he was in constant contact. So what? He didn't witness these things himself. He simply believed what she told him and acted on it, and repeated them. He also refused to believe Walt Thompson, Danny Shelton or anyone else as he interpreted all they had to say and do based on what Linda and even Darrell Mundall told him.

He has made a case and tells the story of being fired for not saying what Danny Shelton told him to, that may be true to a fault. Danny Shelton told him that it wasn't about he, Danny Shelton and it wasn't about Linda Shelton it was about the ministry of 3ABN and putting the ministry and what was right first. He didn't and still doesn't believe that.

******************************************

******************************************

This is my observation and I believe it to be just as valid and appropriate as Artiste trusts that Johann's is.

3D


MODERATOR HAT ON

It appears that some are not aware of the administrative position that Johann holds at the Advent Talk site.  Please show appropriate respect to that position.  Failure to do so may affect your further posting privileges at Advent Talk.

MODERATOR HAT OFF

Edited to remove inappropriate content.  Read the rules, 3D!!!

[Bob Pickle]

If they had to pay out such a huge amount to the IRS, wouldn't this show up in a future financial report?

Not necessarily, if 3ABN wasn't the one that paid it. What if some of the directors paid the IRS a million or two or three? That wouldn't necessarily appear on 3ABN's books.

Amended filings would have been required along with the payment of that huge amount. There are none.

Danny_Defender, could you cite where the Internal Revenue Code would require amended filings if a consent decree was signed?

[princessdi]

You heard?  come one, Bob, you have to give me better than that.  AND are you quoting yourself?   Come on, Bob.  You know I believe Danny is shady as all get out, but you have got to give me better than that.

Di, I quote here from pp. 11-12 of http://www.3abnvjoy.com/1st-cir-08-2457/1st-cir-08-2457-appellants-motion-to-enlarge-record-11-19-07.pdf:

"The Remnant documents decisively address the issue of the possibility of IRS exoneration, since they prove conclusively that Shelton received kickbacks and sought to conceal his income. One detail in particular would be of special interest to the IRS, destroying any chance of exoneration. (Pickle Aff. pp. 7–9 at ¶¶ 29, 32)."

We heard that 3ABN or some of its directors paid a huge amount to the IRS. They wouldn't have done so if the IRS hadn't found anything out of line.

[Pat Williams]

If they had to pay out such a huge amount to the IRS, wouldn't this show up in a future financial report?

Not necessarily, if 3ABN wasn't the one that paid it. What if some of the directors paid the IRS a million or two or three? That wouldn't necessarily appear on 3ABN's books.

"What if?" You really need to stop, Mr Pickle.



Let's consider what you are saying here, a director, or more than one ( you apparently didn't hear this part) paid one, or two, or three million dollars to the IRS on behalf of 3ABN, (That's a huge difference in amounts. You apparently didn't even 'hear" how much the huge amount was either? ) and this wouldn't have to appear on any books, or any future financial reports, and the IRS was ok with that? (no documentation, evidence, or support included)

What are you claiming now? That a huge amount of money changed hands and there is no record of when, why or how, or what it was for? No money trail? How then would your sources, or you, know it occurred?

Please tell everyone you are not claiming the IRS accepted a payoff or bribe offered illegally by "some" on the 3ABN board? because that is just too fantastical, Mr Pickle. Especially as it is only based on a vague supposition that you "heard", and ran with.


If that isn't it, and if you aren't just trying to muddy the waters, what in the world are you trying to claim here?

Amended filings would have been required along with the payment of that huge amount. There are none.

Danny_Defender, could you cite where the Internal Revenue Code would require amended filings if a consent decree was signed?

No, Danny_Attacker, I will not. The IRS, themselves, state they have a practice of making wrongdoing and problems public in order to deter others, so I have no idea why you think they would abandon that practice where 3ABN is concerned. IMO your arguments are ridiculous and not even supported by the least little bit of evidence.

It is apparently your *new theory*and *claim* that 3ABN signed a "consent decree" so first of all you need to do the work yourself and support your theory yourself! It is your assertion a "consent decree" was signed. It is your assumption and claim that a "consent decree" requires no amended filings or corrections.


You need to explain why you are claiming this, what it was for and why 3ABN would need to do so,(documented) or what circumstances and statutes, precidents etc, if that occurred, would cause the IRS to hide that from the public and leave errors or fraud or whatever untouched and uncorrected in the governmental records and public filings and on the parties books. Feel free to quote from the Internal Revenue Code yourself. If you get it wrong, then and only then I will come back and point out your errors, and answer your question.

Have fun!

3D

[Pat Williams]

I'd do anything to protect and support a ministry that is doing the Lord's work. But when a ministry with lofty claims uses lies and false rumors to demolish one of it's co-workers, then my support comes to an end.

In spite of what some claim, I tried in vain to help both Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, John Lomacang, and others to see what the Lord requires of them to do, and what is the Christian way to handle such issues. It was when they refused to listen that I shared my concern with leaders of our Church and others.

Makes a lot of sense, Johann.

The part which doesn't make sense is why he (and you) couldn't, and still don't  understand that in fairness, they of course all heard him. Disagreeing with, is not 'refusing to listen". They also listened to, and heard all the other witnesses and looked at the big picture ( not just his one side) with all the facts in front of them and so had to disagree with him. They tried to help him see that and why, and he refused to change course or "listen" ( as he puts it) and still believes only he did and is doing the righteous thing with lofty claims, and using lies and false rumors to demolish them. All in the name of, and on behalf of, Linda Shelton.

It is because he "refused to listen" that I share my concerns with you all.