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[Murcielago]

Tinka, those were some of the very arguments used by the church for centuries to keep the Bible only in Latin. They did not want it to be put into the languages of the common people, and when it was, they said it was inaccurate. When it was finally accepted by the church, there remained (and still remain) hold-outs who vehemently held that nothing but the Latin vulgate as translated in the earliest days of Christianity could be trusted as the true word of God.

Latin is now a dead language, and so is 16th century king's English.

[Murcielago]

Jesus spoke to the lower classes of uneducated people in their own vernacular and colloquialisms. He brought his teachings down to their level.

[princessdi]

Amen!  As I remember Jesus was asked why He spoke to the people in stories/parables/common terms.  Isn't He supposed to be our example?  Not to mention that the KJV has issues all it's own, beginning with not being the first translation for either OT or NT.............and that in many places accuracy was sacrificed for more poetic speech.........and then there is the Clear Word.............sigh......

[todd_vetter33]

I added much to this discovery.  I tried to post this in it's own thread but it was locked.  So here it is with further information for you to test it for truth.  I recomend referencing the time line at the end of this for visual reference.  This evidence will shake the foundation of the Christian world if they belive the bible is the word of God.  If Prophecy is the word of God, We need to have it, hear it and speak it.

Link Ref for Bishop testimony from Prior to 3rd and 4th Century councils.
http://www.bombaxo.com/didascalia.html

"on the tenth of the moon, on the second day of the week, (p. 92) the priests and elders of the people assembled and came to the court of Caiaphas the high priest; and they took counsel to apprehend Jesus and put him to death: but they feared, saying: Not in the festival, lest the people make a tumult [Mt 26.3-5]; for all men were hanging upon Him [Lk 19.48], and they held him for a prophet [Mt 21.46] on account of His miracles of healing which He did among them. But Jesus was that day in the house of Simon the leper [Mt 26.6], and we together with Him, and He related to us that which was about to happen to Him. But Judas went out privily from us, thinking that he would evade our Lord, and went to the house of Caiaphas where the chief priests and elders were assembled, and said to them: What will ye give me, and I will betray Him to you when I have found an occasion? But they appointed [[188]] and gave him thirty pieces of silver [Mt 26.15]. And he said to them: 'Make ready young men armed, because of His disciples, that if He go forth by night to a desert place I may come and lead you.' And they made ready the young men and prepared to seize Him. And Judas was watching, when he might find him an occasion to betray him."

If Christ died on a Friday in the Year of His Crucifixion, The testimony as illustrated above regarding the anointing in Bethany would have taken place on the second day of the week for the tenth of the moon or Ten Nissan. See page 9 of the time line that is link referenced at the end of this examination for example. What is clear by this testimony is that it is placing the anointing in Bethany on the Evening of the tenth day of the first month since it's in reference to the upcoming Passover/crucifixion. For the possibility of a Friday crucifixion this would have been a Sunday Night (Gregorian time). This in turn according to the book of John would have placed the triumphal entry on a Monday if it happened the day after the anointing in Bethany. This illustrates that the Palm Sunday tradition had not yet been established by the 3rd century councils that defined the tenet view.  The Third century Christians had a great deal of confusion based on the written testimonies that existed in their time.

All through the Didascalia Apostolorum the Bishop appears to be quoting from Matt, Mark, Luke and John yet he had this perception of understanding which is very different and not consistent with the traditional perceptions shared by much of Christianity today who build their understanding on what should be the same gospels if they never changed by the hand of scribes during the first three centuries where no solid accountability can be given or verified.

If Christ died on a Wednesday in 30 AD, (see page 12 of time line) what we have is a piece of historical testimonial evidence corroborating that the anointing in Bethany occurred on the evening of the tenth day of the first month, (Ten Nissan). If Christ was crucified in 30 AD, the anointing in Bethany would have been the Evening of the Sabbath just as the Gospel of the twelve presents which gives credibility that the Gospel of the twelve predates the Didascalia Apostolorum which is said to have been written in the second to Third century prior to the 3rd and 4th century councils. The four day prophecy of Exodus 12 is able to then illustrate that this Bishop who wrote Didascalia Apostolorum was not baring solid true witness regarding the illustrated events when he claimed it was the Second day of the week. Exodus 12 prophecy and the historical evidence of its fulfillment also highlights that the Gospel of John is not baring true witness by claiming the anointing in Bethany occurred 6 days before the Passover.  It exposes that Matthew and Mark are also not baring true witness by illustrating that the anointing in Bethany occurred two days before the Passover.

The Gospel of the twelve, though placing the anointing in Bethany with the correct perception of time for when the event occurred (Evening of the Sabbath) appears to skip the day time period for the event that would have occurred on the Sabbath day following the anointing in Bethany by stating that the triumphal entry occurred on the First day of the week. Later in the Gospel of twelve’s testimony of events that followed up to the Crucifixion, someone from our Christian past added in a day transition in the middle of the Cleansing of the Temple testimony, otherwise the Gospel of Twelve would have portrayed Jesus Crucifixion on a Thursday.

What I find most interesting is that the bishop appears to be using the book of Matthew as it appeared in His day (specifically chapter 26 as it appears in our day) to explain his perception of understanding.  The oldest know copies of the canonized gospels can only be allegedly dateable to the 3rd to 4th century. Chapter 26 of Matthew as it appears to us today begins with a time marker by stating it was Two days before the Passover, (12 Nissan) then illustrates the same events that the bishop was trying to portray occurring two days earlier than the gospels of Matt and Mark currently portray.  If the Gospel of Matthew and Mark which state a uniform perception of time for these events were never changed or altered by Scribes in the third or fourth century, this Bishop, whose testimony is said to predate the oldest preserved Christian gospel texts would not be presenting this perception of understanding which goes very contrary to the perception of time presented by our bibles gospels today regarding the anointing in Bethany event.  This is clear evidence that the bible gospels we have today are not what were available to the Third century Christian prior to the 3rd and 4th century councils.

One thing that is very clear is that this man is a man of intelligence and reason who was familiar with the Jewish concept of time regarding an evening and morning making a day.  It’s very clear that he inherited written lies which caused him to build an understanding on lies.  We today are an end result of this which gives us evidence of this below Jeremiah prophecy in fulfillment since many make the bible the Word of God instead of the voice of truth that those of the truth should hear as was spoken by Jesus to Pilate.

Jeremiah 16: 19-20  
19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, The Gentiles shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, “Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable things.” 20 Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?        

The time line at the below link illustrates very clearly how to use OT Prophecy as a light to the confusion of Christian written recorded history. See pages 9 and 12 in comparison to the Bishops testimony. The mystery of Babylon is soon to be solved when the born again process (the true gospel of the Christ) begins being taken to the world in truth through the Spirit that gives life, not the letter which kills. 2 Corinthians 3:4-6

It can be seen by the words of a wise man why many Christian denominations exist that do not agree with one another regarding doctrine and bible interpretation.
Proverbs 6:19
A false witnesses who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren.
dis•cord: (d s kôrd ) n.. 1. a. Lack of agreement among persons, groups, or things. b. Tension or strife resulting from a lack of agreement; dissension.

For unity in Christ and solid truth, one must speak the truth about God, from God, if they are to bare good fruit and deliver souls.

Proverbs 14:25
A true witness delivers souls, But a deceitful witness speaks lies.

Lies can keep us in darkness even if we do not perceive them to be lies.  There is a sin offering in the Law of Moses for the person who discovers he has sinned in ignorance which tells us sin in ignorance will still result in death.   The only way to bare true witness of God is to be led by the spirit of God.  These are the Sons and Daughters of God. Romans 8:14


http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/the%20death%20and%20resurrection.pdf

[Murcielago]

The history of the Bible, and its evolution, is fascinating. Countless thousands of deaths have been effected in the argument over versions, translations, and books. In fact, Emperor Constantine grew so sick of the fighting and killing between Christians in this matter that he convened the Council of Nicea and ordered the Bishops to remain in conclave until they arrived at mutual agreement on the whole matter, and that is how the compilation called The Holy Bible, as we  know it, was invented. The Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek versions of the books were translated into Latin, and for over 1,000 years that version was followed and vehemently protected, until some crazy rebels decided to create versions in the vernacular of the common people of the day. The beauty and poetry of the Latin was lost, and most scholars of the day felt that the Bible had been demeaned. 400 years later, the Protestant revolution continues, the Bible is translated into current vernacular, and the people who would have been the loudest voices in trying to stop the King James version from publication in the common language of that day, are the loudest in trying to stop the continued translation of Scripture into the language of the common people of today.

[todd_vetter33]

It was around the time that the bible was solidified in pen and ink that the Christians and people of Europe slipped into the darkest hours of mankind.  Didn't the holy spirit bring the wisdom and truth of God?  Why then is the Christian world divided and in the darkness of denominational confusion when built on the bible? Is the bible the solid Rock Christ promised us when he said to build on the solid Rock?  Or do men make the bible God?

Just a thought to ponder.

Very respectfully

[Murcielago]

Interesting points Todd, but history shows us times of division are often times of enlightenment. It is when everyone marches to the same beat that humanity falls into its darkest times. Diversity of thought keeps the wheels of progress turning, and prevents clean flowing streams from becoming stagnant theological swamps.

[tinka]

Todd,
Will make this simple, either you are not Adventist and pushing the tricks of the Catholic church on this forum or just plain of the devil. This will only rock the ignorant that have not stablized in the truth. We were warned that many will be lost as they buy into these sort of deceivements.
Do you think God would play this trick on His followers?? No way bub! Your headed down wrong paths. This is just signs of the acutal visions that were shown portraying. and to tell you the truth this is not the only tricks. The catholics have their imaginary cloth that covered Jesus's face too. Lets see should one believe that too??? all their sacred idols are truth too??? Justification of all that I am sure you can pick up and read somewhere. God is my God and His word is not changeable!  So you want to convince it is changeable? God left us with the prince of this world with no way of knowing truth? Get behind and go confuse the Catholics. That just might bring them to light when they finally realize they have been barnsided. Your doubt again will find you still in doubt with shifting sand under your feet.

IF your Adventist you better read about this very thing going on.  In fact most Adventist are only that because of 7th day truth and venture in to nothing else to become or wonder about anytng more then that.  If you cannot believe in latter day messenger or (His prophets) how in the world can you believe and do the will of Jesus and His testamonies. The devil believes in all this too.  In fact the more liberal a person seems or comes across in self opinions comes from lack of reading  true doctrine.  They are too busy giving justifications.  

and George....I am speaking of new translations that are twisting and leaving out truth that is quite different then the King James (if that is all we have left to go by)!!!! all in the name of suiting this latter day people with slang. It is a disgrace to hear the Bible in slang. I understand fully what happened in early times and how all was preserved but this is a bunch of justification for junk. I am pretty upset that is is going on here and no one speaking up to this.  This is from one extreme to another. I have a book of all the changes made in all versions. so when you can't except that ----one can go by what fancys their own self. King James is the best to not get confused like what is going on here right now.

[Murcielago]

The same was said of Tindale, Luther, and the many others who took the traditionally accepted version that had to be interpreted for the people by theologians, and put it in the modern "slang." As they said back then, "original meaning is lost," "the beauty and poetry is lost," "meaning is changed..." From the Aramaic and Greek, there is much that is lost in the KJV. From the Hebrew, the KJV translation is very different. There is much that cannot be properly translated into English and keep everything that was put into the original. Also, much of what was written related to cultural issues and colloquialisms whose meaning were lost within mere generations of their origin. The validity and accuracy of any version of the Bible, in any language, is subjective in the context of the quarrel over versions. There is not any absolute proof shown to fully establish any version of the Bible as having true, original meaning as per accurate linguistic, cultural, and colloquial translation, as much of that was lost long before the translators came along.

That having been said, the KJV is your preference because that is what you fancy for yourself, just as others fancy various other versions. It is a matter of what one chooses to have faith in, when in cases like this there is no definitive proof to fall back on.

[tinka]

Well now, Man's diversion of interpretation for translations superseeds the Inspiration, Power, Wisdom and the true  Holy Word of God bestowed upon the human race??  Well ..I'll be......    So what is your religion if not sure  "anything goes" where ever it flows??  A true liberal you claim and I believe it. Bet you agree on global warming too. See if you can find it in the Greek or Hewbrew. It should be there someplace.

I am disgusted with this baloney. People coming on here to change now the day of crucifixion, sabbath and a bunch of malarkey and try to speak with refined justification of words.  Do you know what Holy means. It means perfection in God's sight. Not a bunch of men claiming "false" not sure, not orginal, never will know what is truth because of early mens interpetations.  This is just a bunch of hopping down the trail..

[Murcielago]

I don't know about the crucifixion day thing. As to global warming, the only thing constant about earth's climate is change, but I am not sure what that has to do with the King James Bible except that the northern hemisphere was experiencing a mini ice age at the time. Come to think of it, you are right! In both the Greek and Hebrew, global warming is assured where the Bible tells us that everything will be burned up and nothing will be left.

That aside, I am glad that there were those liberals like Jesus, Tindale, King James, and so forth who thought that the God's Word should be given in the common language of the common, modern people.

[princessdi]

So I am, George.  I dont't believe I could imagine having to sit in services and have the Bible "explained" because I could not read it for myself.........

Oh yes, and more to the point of the OT.  Yes, ALL churches are flawed, as God allowed flawed man to establish them.  NOTHING man does or attmepts is perfect.  We are being perfected/sanctified daily, but we are far from perfect.

[tinka]

Good play on words, so what did you think God thought we all needed EGW for? Oh yes, not everyone believes a latter day message that "might have been given"??  Of course you all could have done the job yourselves. It has always been beyond doubt on who the justifiers are especially on here with DS the biggest of all. This really is no place for people to be to understand truth and indure the spin on the words to place this kind of doubt of the Holy Bible. Spin is what you get when you parley with the Devils helpers and from what I see they are gathering here.Evidently you did not read all the Todd business. I did and why such garbage and for what reason other then an old bitty letting down thunder for it. (Laugh) guess no one else will stand up to it as probably most all believers are not on here..anymore.

It sort of was a sarcastic remark about the global waring as You are a typical justifyer on why truth is not there. So we are all on separate individual theories of our own liking "How great thou art". Your words conclude much that you do not realize. It does not help to play them easy and refined or (cultured)??. It's all there for character and your colors are not blended.

[Murcielago]

Tinka, this is a forum where polite debate is encouraged. You need to tone down and control the anger. Discussion and debate can be held in a civil manner without getting ugly. If you can't say it in a civil manner then don't say it at all. 

[tinka]

Post removed. Inappropriate content.