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[Murcielago]

As I remember, it was at church that Jesus wanted the kids to be loud and active in their worship, not out on the street or at home.

I find it interesting from the perspective of anthropology to see how time, tradition, evolution through churches, and the impact of civilizations has changed Christianity. The dominant cultures dogmatize their cultural preferences and impose them as religious obligations, and call things "sin" that the original Jesus and his followers did. Across the two millenia since Christ lived, thousands of groups have come together and formed new dogma and literary guidebooks that supercede the teachings of Jesus in the lives of the followers, while at the same time using the teachings of Jesus to give themselves credibility. Clothing, jewelry, food, form of worship and many other matters that no group can find justification for, except in cultural tradition, have been the factors that have caused division, hatred, killing, persecution and war. My observation has been that the teachings of Jesus have always brought people together, but the imposition of cultural preference through religion has always caused division.

Love, adoration, praise, and worship that Jesus so enjoyed has to be crushed in order to open up a void that can be filled. For two thousand years the dominant Church and many others have had to create that void in the spiritual lives of the followers in order to replace it with wrote and dogma. Love is an emotion, and on its own can be dangerous. Intellect is the opposite of emotion and on its own is equally dangerous. Both used in an antithetical manner to the other are common tools of manipulation. A balance of the two brings mental and emotional stability. I watch people crush the intellect in their children through religious dogma, and the result is no sense of personal structure. They demand faith to the exclusion of reason. Then there are those who crush emotion out and use the other extreme as an example of why they should. These ones often place their personal value on appearance. They seem to feel that the appearance of simplicity and absence of emotion in worship defines them as superior in their religion and culture, when they are just as unbalanced as the wild hootenany's they look down on. So, divisions are created. Then we look at the balance of emotion and intellect that Jesus displayed and taught. It included solid intellectual structure that was built around emotion and expression. He showed that they are not mutually exclusive. He lived in a time when the church had evolved from the Davidian emotion and worship through exuberant display and outpouring of praise, to the Pharisaical  period where worship was done in quiet reverence, and emotion was despised. Jesus made it clear that he this was unacceptable. He wanted loud praise, singing, and physical expression of feeling in the house of worship, where he taught and brought intellectual enlightenment to the people.

[princessdi]

Preach!!!    

[tinka]

Di

  the Las Vegas thing that now has OJ in jail I totally believe he was at that time set up.

[princessdi]

Sorry for being so dingy, Tinka.  Las Vegas thingy...I dont' believe he was set up then either.  You can't be set up if they dont' ever believe you will fall for the bait, like Mayor Marion Barry.  silly people.......sigh.  He(OJ), more than anybody else in the world, just should have called the police.........

[tinka]

Di,

And what police would help him in anything? OJ knows this! I am not sure if ol Goldman did'nt concock such a thing in his obsession with OJ money. It had to be something that would hit OJ hard. The rest of his personal, sentimental things he wanted for his children. Money that could go to the Goldmans exposed to where it was at. Didn't you see the appearance of the Goldmans as soon as all this hit claiming any money again??  They actually made me sick everytime they came on tv.  OJ's friends even turned on him for his money. In so helping him to hide his personal they turned on him to get what they could too. Who rigged that up    Seems to me all anybody wanted out of him was his money and so did his hot tamale while she played. What was she spending it on??  Lover boy Goldman?? He was gay too.  But your right on one thing no one will probably know the truth and all you have is "outside appearances."  One thing was for sure. The person that called oj wife to return her mother's glasses where she left them, knew where she was at...at the right time and place when he had Goldman take them to her. Think of that open end. OJ had no way of knowing the glasses were being returned at that exact time as he was gone when this took place. Goldman and oj wife was into something.. what was it??  jealousy of Goldman's aquaintances?? anything was possible and that is why I would not have convicted!  Goldman's son was no saint either as they portrayed.

[WillowRun]

I firmly do not believe the women dressing in long dresses with long sleeves and cotton tights (even in the summer ugh!) is a salvation issue.   This kind of nonsense was part of what pushed me out of the formal church years ago.  And musical styles.  Some adventists often end up in nonsensical arguments that have no real bearing on evangelization or salvation.


Willow

Certainly folks can and do go overboard. But would you say that there are some that could be more modest?

The Adventist Review recently had an article on the topic: "The Allure of Modesty." I couldn't see anything wrong with it. What do you think?

My general rule of thumb is:  If guys are looking at you like they want to give you money to get in their cars, you should probably rethink your mode of dress.   My hard fast rule (I have 4 daughters):  Nothing low cut,nothing see through dress at the top of the knees or lower.   Other than that why invite out right rebellion by fighting with em.....

[Bob Pickle]

WillowRun,

Your suggestion sounds sensible.

George,

I know of a couple kids that would scream in church. During the sermon suit them just fine, and near one's table at potluck.

The story you refer to was of kids singing praises to God. That's sounds a bit different than wild and noisy worship.

On the other hand, when Peter and John went to pray, and met a lame man on the way, and he went walking and leaping and praising God, I doubt he was as inhibited in doing so as some super educated and cultured type might be. He made a bit of a scene, which was why everyone came running to see what was going on.

[princessdi]

If those things were stolen from OJ, then it is the police's duty to do something about it.  If they didn't then, he might have had some reason to take another road, with that prrof behind him.  Taking it into his own hands from the begining was foolish a the very least.  You can't be set up if there is any doubt that you will react in the expected manner.  They could not have set OJ up without knowing how he would react, and he not disappointing them by falling into the trap.

As for the rest, no one had clean hands here. That is why it was so hard to determine the truth in this case.

Di,

And what police would help him in anything? OJ knows this! I am not sure if ol Goldman did'nt concock such a thing in his obsession with OJ money. It had to be something that would hit OJ hard. The rest of his personal, sentimental things he wanted for his children. Money that could go to the Goldmans exposed to where it was at. Didn't you see the appearance of the Goldmans as soon as all this hit claiming any money again??  They actually made me sick everytime they came on tv.  OJ's friends even turned on him for his money. In so helping him to hide his personal they turned on him to get what they could too. Who rigged that up    Seems to me all anybody wanted out of him was his money and so did his hot tamale while she played. What was she spending it on??  Lover boy Goldman?? He was gay too.  But your right on one thing no one will probably know the truth and all you have is "outside appearances."  One thing was for sure. The person that called oj wife to return her mother's glasses where she left them, knew where she was at...at the right time and place when he had Goldman take them to her. Think of that open end. OJ had no way of knowing the glasses were being returned at that exact time as he was gone when this took place. Goldman and oj wife was into something.. what was it??  jealousy of Goldman's aquaintances?? anything was possible and that is why I would not have convicted!  Goldman's son was no saint either as they portrayed.

[Murcielago]

I also know of kids who scream and are simply disruptive in church. I am sure you know that is very different from what I am talking about. Apples and oranges.

To the pharisees of that day, kids singing praises to God was wild and noisy worship and they took issue with it. They wanted the kids to be quiet. It is relative to what one's culture and tradition has formed in them. For some people praise and worship does not come from the heart if it doesn't include song and dance expressing their worship. To others that is nothing more than heathen behaviour that does not please God, because it doesn't please them. I find nothing wrong with a nice quiet worship service in which voices are muted, the music is quiet and simple, and "proper reverence" is shown. In the context of worshipers whose culture demands it, that is good. I also see nothing wrong with services that include drums, cymbals, dance, song, and passionate praise. It certainly is biblical.

WillowRun,

Your suggestion sounds sensible.

George,

I know of a couple kids that would scream in church. During the sermon suit them just fine, and near one's table at potluck.

The story you refer to was of kids singing praises to God. That's sounds a bit different than wild and noisy worship.

On the other hand, when Peter and John went to pray, and met a lame man on the way, and he went walking and leaping and praising God, I doubt he was as inhibited in doing so as some super educated and cultured type might be. He made a bit of a scene, which was why everyone came running to see what was going on.

[tinka]

George,

I like to follow the inspirational writings of EGW on the explanations of music and what symbals cause what  in the spirit and reverance. Therefore if I am wrong in my likes I have only me to blame. an example:   a baby about a year old or less was standing up on pew holding on to back.  The jazzed up music started and the baby started to dance in tune with the music. Her little body went into all the jirations and parents thought it was cute.  The baby did not know she was in worship service.  But music of that nature developed out the instincts of what??? A true Adventist knows the real way but some justify their own cultures, preferences and far out theories to the guidence we have to be in unity.
 
Unity is most important but so far the hardest to be in. Can you imagine all the confusion that has been created by each individual likes and wants in the worship time. What would be a good way to apease all at the same time?? Noway, except the way presented in unity. Our spirit can dance with joy, our heart can dance with love, our bodies do not need to dance for the Lord to read our spirit that dances for Him. That is why I asked you if you wanted to go out and dance naked like David. I do not see where that would give anyone the version that it is ok to do that. I mean you can if you want to go to jail for public exposure....

[Murcielago]

The child was developing the God-given sense of rhythm. It is sad to see God give his children gifts and then see them taken away and thrown in the trash.

Like the Catholics and Mormons many Adventists give the Bible a substantial place in our religion, but only as it conforms to tradition and other writings held even more sacred. Tinka, I respect that you are upfront about that. I still chuckle over being told that Jesus ate meat because he didn't have the benefit of "The Spirit of Prophecy."

Just like the Catholic church did for millenia, some Adventists canonize their culture and preferences as "true adventism" and in the name of "unity" attempt to force their personal and cultural quirks on the world. That sort of Adventist Christianity sometimes reminds me of congressional bills. They won't let the bill pass until their own personal pork-barrel has been added.

[tinka]

Yes George, Jesus did eat meat and I for one have stated on here that eating the clean meat will not keep you from heaven. It is just the condition  what people are doing to make the meat unsafe for the profit of money. That goes for the gentically engineered seeds too. But we have to know how to use what we can. This is all far beyond what they did in EGW day. Except in Lev. it already states and commands that the people stop were crossing the animals and the seeds. They were also crossing the line with human and animal as it is stated that is "confusion". That word seems pretty big to me and I conclude that is where the abstract of humans and animals that they call prehistoric. After all I believe they are still doing it to this day.  Ham that was placed in the African country after the ark landed still carried the knowledge and according to EGW the practice was then again displayed.

Also, I am in the same belief that we have all emotions good and bad. I believe we do should not need to excerise the bad emotions that are from sin and not gifts of God. A good pickpocket with jest of hand is a talent, so are the war dances, and so are the dances of the cult. Why bring them out when you do not know which way they will go. Michael Jackson also had a gift of dance that the whole world followed. Wow!! Now that was a gift chosen from the parents and trained him to do.   It ended up evil.  A baby shaking their bootie is not the little sunbeam I would want for them to learn to praise God.  No that would not happen under my care of my little sunbeam.  I will still stick to what is the only sensible reading outside of the Bible. 
Jesus wants me for a sunbeam to shine for him each day.
In everyway try to please him at home at school at play.
a sunbeam, a sunbeam, I'll be a sunbeam for Him!!!  I remember that from a year old! It has stayed with me my whole life. Just that simple little song of purity, security, love and simplicity. It is that easy. No need to discover sinful emotions.

[Murcielago]

So because there are war dances, etc, all dance is bad? Should we then refrain from all swimming because some people have drowned? Again, I see that as simply personal preference projected as God's preference.

Ummm... the part about EGW, Ham, Africa, and the mixing of species, that is a serious can of worms.

[tinka]

George, its all there for the reading.

Look under Amalgamations. But you do not have to go anywhere but the Bible to read what God commanded them not to do in Lev. If they were not doing it it would not have been mentioned. 

[princessdi]

Well, now, Tinka, let's start with EGW and malgamations.  Not so good, those quotes and/or misquotes are what have some believing EGW practiced racism, or even worse some form of self hatred.

We should not count on everythign single thing being mentioned in the Bible.  It is not.  a "council" of clergy selected the books, not God, and along with the books not chosen wer some facts left unmentioned.  Especially the OT where you don't even have the stories in written form until the time on Moses.  This was not a problem to the subsequent OT or NT readers as it is clear the books were written for people with prior knowledge.  Just as int eh NT not all of Jesus miracles, etc. were not mentioned. No book as concise as the Bible could contain all of that information.

However, if after Leviticus David was dancing unto the Lord and his wife was the only one who had a problem, and the only one rebuked by the Lord for voicing that displeasure, I believe that it is safe to assume that God actually has no problem with dancing.  We are also forgetting the culture of the COI/Jews, they had dance as a part of their culture for various celebrations in which Jesus participated.  We do not see where Jesus came down and commanded them to change that. 

I have to go with George on this one, again.  A lot of personal  preference being exhibited.  Also, the mistaken impression that everyone who reads the same material will come to the same conclusions.  Not to meontion our own version of traditionalism, which, BTW, atually comes from the over zealous puritans, and not God.........

George, its all there for the reading.

Look under Amalgamations. But you do not have to go anywhere but the Bible to read what God commanded them not to do in Lev. If they were not doing it it would not have been mentioned.