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[tinka]

Johann,

Laughing, but yet not so funny Johann. I would say a big share of that just might be. 

I think I am more upset of the comments with glee over the final protection of the takers of the SDA pew money that seems the devil has protected with great folly. God knows the truth of the matter. He knows the truth what happened to us too. sometimes Johann I think I now and then try to remind Jesus that we are not made of Job as it seems we have more then our share of woes. One thing certain is no one is in the shoes of lies like the protectors of wasteful extravaganza money that justify their selfish funding of lush desires. There is nothing to fear for the enlightenment of supposedly secret lifestyles. Soon maybe the feeding of the  s will get a kick in the bucket at least expectancy.

[Bob Pickle]

I firmly do not believe the women dressing in long dresses with long sleeves and cotton tights (even in the summer ugh!) is a salvation issue.   This kind of nonsense was part of what pushed me out of the formal church years ago.  And musical styles.  Some adventists often end up in nonsensical arguments that have no real bearing on evangelization or salvation.


Willow

Certainly folks can and do go overboard. But would you say that there are some that could be more modest?

The Adventist Review recently had an article on the topic: "The Allure of Modesty." I couldn't see anything wrong with it. What do you think?

[tinka]

I suppose it appears a woman dressed that shows all is touched by all old and used. Can he compete???

A man respects a woman that has modesty letting him know that top morals only can enter into relationship. and that her choice will be him and him only.

Hmm, seems outward appearance is a great tool for discerning character.

[princessdi]

Now Tinka, you know you can't just leave it like that.  Please give just one example of what your daughter found.  If it was all that open, there is no need to worry about naming names. If you are still worried, just tell the incident and block the name out...............  LOL!!

Johann,

Just read your link. did not know it was there   who in the world are they kidding. that conference is the most liberal of all. You would be lucky to find a place that has any signifiance of conservative except maybe a couple of places. The reason is they need a new president years ago. Why do you thinki it is now in this shape and still mounting? No one could ever make a believer of anything coming out of Ohio. Any good pastors seem to leave and go to Michigan. or who knows where! Our daughter tried going back and thought she entered into charasmatic movement. This post is not big enough to tell the stories with out end encluding the schools.

You see, people are really satisfied to do as they please, (dress, jewelry, and what feels good and when. They have the best president for that!!!I
I heard even in some place the preacher had them line up for the wafer and no foot washing.  think this means nothing, think again what is happening.

[tinka]

Well... Di,
They know who they are, and with great possibility if I state it I do not want everyone to know who I might be that does all the yelling (laugh). The roof might fall in.

But what she found was the pulpit removed, banging band, hands in the air, body language, and jazz. That was not the reverance she was taught and as she finally left to not return again she called and asked me what happened!  You know Di, this is just a smidge of actions that take place in that conference. They no longer have camp meeting and some the orginal way of worship is no more.  Of course the older people are not going to waste their time and money on a camp meeting of the new age and charasamatic music that is now sought after from the leaders.

It is no longer worship to God but all saga's that people bring up of the most rediculous episodes for ones personal self that it is total embarassment.  I feel they can take it to the Lord on their knees 6 days a week and the 7th is for worship to God to him and not our selves. Guess I do not know what is wrong with me.. but I would not change into this new blues music or the rap at any church that does it. I will not nail them as then it can be pinpointed right to the church.

I understand that Ohio had some really good inspirational pastors but they are no longer in the state and i think it was for their traditional Adventist preaching and very possible the use of church funds in disagreement, but I am not saying I am totally right on that.

[Murcielago]

I remember a story about a loud group of boistrous kids who were not adhering to the reverence they had been taught to show in church. The elders wanted them to be quiet or leave, but Jesus preferred the noise and wildness of the kids to the reverence of the elders.

[tinka]

George,
 Have you read anything in the counsels of how we are to train our children for church?  I think it might be in vol 5 T.  My children have been taught reverence and quietness since they were taken on day one to church. and to this day they will never except what goes on now. They never had to be spanked  but just a look was instant understanding.  I enjoyed taking them all to the grocery or shopping with me. They were well behaved in public. I just trained then the way my mother trained all of us.  My best time was in summer when school was out and sad in the fall when I was left alone without them.  I have witnessed children allowed to run in "wild" terms, up and down the isles, back and forth, no discipline and the parents think it cute while distracting others and typically loud with no mind of what they were doing in a church. Now as they are older their lives are not cute. No manners or respect for other peoples property no longer in church as far as I know. I can imagine and believe the children in the day of Jesus quite different then now as they sat upon His knee.

I know He must be sad to see children raised in a manner of not knowing that He was their Creator and the story of His Love for them. So many children are like that and have no reason or foundation to know why they should not be "wild".   My daughter is a teacher in public schools and the hardest part and most hopeless is how many children are like that.  What is more heartbreaking is when the children become attached to her and she has to let it go. I would not be able to stand what she goes through. It is just too sad.

I would say that Jesus sought to do what the parents did not do and His need was there.  Other wise throw out the counsel of EGW.

[princessdi]

George, if we ever meet, you have a HUGE christian hug from Princessdi coming!   Teach!

I remember a story about a loud group of boistrous kids who were not adhering to the reverence they had been taught to show in church. The elders wanted them to be quiet or leave, but Jesus preferred the noise and wildness of the kids to the reverence of the elders.

[tinka]

Princess di,
You know, not all children of wicked parents will be saved! So Jesus had a reason to to act as He did.

[princessdi]

I am not sure at all that the children were any different, Tinka.  Afterall, they did have laws about those rebellious and disobedient children..........A certain OT priests sons come to mind.......and they were some bad actors for sure...also, some children taunting a prophet of God....I don't know Tinka.....then there is the prodigal son, I am not seeing him as particularly obedient before he took his rebellious show on the road.......(please know that I am not blind to the change and excalation of sin in this world these days......just pointing out that there were disobedient children back then).

Thank you for your example of what your daughter found.  I actually had an inkling of what you were talking about.  I am far to "fearful"(respectful) of praise and worship offered to God to join the ranks of Michal.  Not wanting any barren areas in my life.  Only God can judge praise and worship given unto Him.  We can only prefer one over the other....and a personal preference is all it is.  Just because we prefer it doesn't make it God's preference......

George,
 Have you read anything in the counsels of how we are to train our children for church?  I think it might be in vol 5 T.  My children have been taught reverence and quietness since they were taken on day one to church. and to this day they will never except what goes on now. They never had to be spanked  but just a look was instant understanding.  I enjoyed taking them all to the grocery or shopping with me. They were well behaved in public. I just trained then the way my mother trained all of us.  My best time was in summer when school was out and sad in the fall when I was left alone without them.  I have witnessed children allowed to run in "wild" terms, up and down the isles, back and forth, no discipline and the parents think it cute while distracting others and typically loud with no mind of what they were doing in a church. Now as they are older their lives are not cute. No manners or respect for other peoples property no longer in church as far as I know. I can imagine and believe the children in the day of Jesus quite different then now as they sat upon His knee.

I know He must be sad to see children raised in a manner of not knowing that He was their Creator and the story of His Love for them. So many children are like that and have no reason or foundation to know why they should not be "wild".   My daughter is a teacher in public schools and the hardest part and most hopeless is how many children are like that.  What is more heartbreaking is when the children become attached to her and she has to let it go. I would not be able to stand what she goes through. It is just too sad.

I would say that Jesus sought to do what the parents did not do and His need was there.  Other wise throw out the counsel of EGW.

[tinka]

Your right there Di,

It seems so overwhelming to how in this world people will come to unity with so many different cultures. But the Lord knows. I basically know and read the Bible but EGW cleared and made some things more simple to understand and I don't know if I would have got it because I am a person that likes the finest of in between details. I am like that with almost everything I do and somethimes I think it is not so good. I am that way in sewing, crocheting, cooking, gardening, reading, music and what ever. (it all has to come around in complete circle.) for me to believe or do. I think it wall was drilled into me by doing the best you can in what ever you do and then stay open to people who can do better.
But yet I always try to have open mind in all things and see others point unless I know without doubt a fact.

It is kinda like this as example. Everyone said OJ was guilty. But he was found innocent. I would have been the one to agree as I watched the whole trial with interest. I weighed everything and there was not complete evidence without doubt if I would have been on the jury. Maybe he was guilty but there was just not enough to convict. Too many things were open. and now I feel he was set up in the end. I am not going to go into it on here but there was one thing that stood out in particular that would not have let me say oj was guilty. OJ might not be a christian the way we think but he is a smart man if you really listen to him on some of his interviews. I cannot say 100% like all the media said or did for a conviction. Then they put him trough double jeapordy in the courts by allowing the money hungry Goldman's that cry and cry for his destruction when there is not 100% evidence of any witness or forensic evidence for a civil law suit once he was found innocent. I was sorry Goldman's lost their son but it got to the point I could not stand his plee for OJ's money. Now what can you do with OJ's money and what is so important to spend the blood of his son.   The media really convicted him before trial. OF course if he did it he deserved everything. But you see what the courts did.  This is just one case of evidence what courts can do and be the protector when money is involved. Before this ever happened OJ told his friend that he eventually would be stripped of all his assets by....................!! His friend died about 3-4 years ago.

There was too much going on with the two sisters lives and too much scary stuff with other outsiders. They were not believable to me.  We knew some people that knew OJ really well on the gulf course and fishing in Florida. OJ discussed a lot with him before any of this happened. It was quite a story.  One has to wonder what happens to celebrities or people that have certain wealth to bring them down if favors are not met. It is a very crooked and cruel world.  Sorry I got off into all this, but l(laugh) I'm getting old too.

[Murcielago]

Yes, I have. I have also read the Bible and find that wild and joyful celebration of worship was something Jesus encouraged and wanted. It delighted him. The ones who required quiet reverence out of kids in worship were rebuked for it. I am not about to tell Jesus that he was wrong and that we have greater light now than he had then.

Wildness and disrespect are very different from wild love and worship. Kids didn't just sit on Jesus' lap, they danced and sang, they waved palm branches, they were loud and wild in their adoration of him, and he loved that. The Pharisees and elders were horrified at this display of emotion and physical action and dance, but Jesus rebuked them, and went on enjoying the antics of the kids who were showing their love for him through their song and dance.

Many years later, the church of Rome overturned what Jesus started and instituted a worship that was like that of the worship of Roman Emperors in its quiet reverence and fear. 2,000 years later we live in the shadow of that long tradition and fear Biblical teaching and particularly the teaching of Jesus as ungodly because of church tradition. We live in the valley of the shadow 19th century Methodist worship that embraced method to the exclusion of the emotion of love and was far closer to the Roman Church they were so bitterly opposed to than a few burgeoning elements of Christian reform whom they abhored. I hear the tears of Jesus every time I see someone's love of Jesus crushed by the reverent quietude imposed on his children by the Pharisees of today.

George,
 Have you read anything in the counsels of how we are to train our children for church?  I think it might be in vol 5 T.  My children have been taught reverence and quietness since they were taken on day one to church. and to this day they will never except what goes on now. They never had to be spanked  but just a look was instant understanding.  I enjoyed taking them all to the grocery or shopping with me. They were well behaved in public. I just trained then the way my mother trained all of us.  My best time was in summer when school was out and sad in the fall when I was left alone without them.  I have witnessed children allowed to run in "wild" terms, up and down the isles, back and forth, no discipline and the parents think it cute while distracting others and typically loud with no mind of what they were doing in a church. Now as they are older their lives are not cute. No manners or respect for other peoples property no longer in church as far as I know. I can imagine and believe the children in the day of Jesus quite different then now as they sat upon His knee.

I know He must be sad to see children raised in a manner of not knowing that He was their Creator and the story of His Love for them. So many children are like that and have no reason or foundation to know why they should not be "wild".   My daughter is a teacher in public schools and the hardest part and most hopeless is how many children are like that.  What is more heartbreaking is when the children become attached to her and she has to let it go. I would not be able to stand what she goes through. It is just too sad.

I would say that Jesus sought to do what the parents did not do and His need was there.  Other wise throw out the counsel of EGW.

[Murcielago]

Intellect tells us the facts and figures about who we love, but love is not just an intellectual function, it is emotion. Love without emotional display is downright creepy. I would be totally creeped out if my kids were to quietly reverence me instead of going wild and jumping around, dancing, climbing all over me, and showing their love with emotion, yelling, singing, laughing, and physical wildness. If someone were to instuct them that showing emotion through physical gyration and wild display of loving me was wrong and that I would not approve, that person would experience my wrath at its worst. God gave us emotion, rythm, song, and dance and to deny the gifts he gave us, is to throw something he treasures back in his face and tell him that his gifts and creation are bad.

[tinka]

Every thing in its place and timing is just fine George as you say but shall we now go in the streets and dance naked as David? (laugh) you can if you want to.  I am talking about church etiquette and actions for children in church hours. This dancing bit is not entirely how we think today. The same thing that people think that a little wine is good using the text litterally instead of understanding the real meaning. We are to abstain from it. So I take it you are against the counsel we have about the proper actions of children during reverence hours. 6 days our children were free to play as they chose but also learned work. They are hard workers to this day and they like work. My husband and I laid on the floor and did all their playing with them too.  But a right time is for everything. and the other thing is that in the actions of today the disruptive children were not worshiping with what you are stating. I doubt if they knew why they were there. That is the difference and where I am coming from.

Hmm, must have touched something as this posted with first sentence.

[princessdi]

Why Tinka!  You surprise me.   You are right on many counts aobut the OJ trial, but he was not set up and he knows more than he is telling. Johnny Cochoran did not get set up.   I just happen to believe that he was there before the police, and the police kind shot themselves in the foot.....and all the other questions you brought to mind.  just too many unanswered questions on both sides.  We may never know the truth.

Yes, Tinks too much perfection is soon called OCD, these days.......LOL!!  Just kidding.  You sound as if if you do something you do your best and with excellence.....God's woman of excellence.........That was the theme for women's day one year......

Your right there Di,

It seems so overwhelming to how in this world people will come to unity with so many different cultures. But the Lord knows. I basically know and read the Bible but EGW cleared and made some things more simple to understand and I don't know if I would have got it because I am a person that likes the finest of in between details. I am like that with almost everything I do and somethimes I think it is not so good. I am that way in sewing, crocheting, cooking, gardening, reading, music and what ever. (it all has to come around in complete circle.) for me to believe or do. I think it wall was drilled into me by doing the best you can in what ever you do and then stay open to people who can do better.
But yet I always try to have open mind in all things and see others point unless I know without doubt a fact.

It is kinda like this as example. Everyone said OJ was guilty. But he was found innocent. I would have been the one to agree as I watched the whole trial with interest. I weighed everything and there was not complete evidence without doubt if I would have been on the jury. Maybe he was guilty but there was just not enough to convict. Too many things were open. and now I feel he was set up in the end. I am not going to go into it on here but there was one thing that stood out in particular that would not have let me say oj was guilty. OJ might not be a christian the way we think but he is a smart man if you really listen to him on some of his interviews. I cannot say 100% like all the media said or did for a conviction. Then they put him trough double jeapordy in the courts by allowing the money hungry Goldman's that cry and cry for his destruction when there is not 100% evidence of any witness or forensic evidence for a civil law suit once he was found innocent. I was sorry Goldman's lost their son but it got to the point I could not stand his plee for OJ's money. Now what can you do with OJ's money and what is so important to spend the blood of his son.   The media really convicted him before trial. OF course if he did it he deserved everything. But you see what the courts did.  This is just one case of evidence what courts can do and be the protector when money is involved. Before this ever happened OJ told his friend that he eventually would be stripped of all his assets by....................!! His friend died about 3-4 years ago.

There was too much going on with the two sisters lives and too much scary stuff with other outsiders. They were not believable to me.  We knew some people that knew OJ really well on the gulf course and fishing in Florida. OJ discussed a lot with him before any of this happened. It was quite a story.  One has to wonder what happens to celebrities or people that have certain wealth to bring them down if favors are not met. It is a very crooked and cruel world.  Sorry I got off into all this, but l(laugh) I'm getting old too.