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[Johann]

Our local Lutheran 65 year old parson has been suspended for almost two years. It happened when four teen age girls accused him of improper embraces, touches and kisses. Police was involved and it was decided to take two of the cases to court. The parson had a good lawyer and he was cleared of breaking the law both in the local and the state supreme court. As a result the parson is demanding that his suspension be terminated.

A number of church members threaten to leave the church if the pastor returns, and the local church board does not want him back. But the parson and his supporters demand of the bishop that he declares the parson has the legal right to his job since he has been cleared even by the State Supreme Court.

This has left the bishop in a dilemma. Finally a week ago he wrote the parson a letter requesting him to report for work in connection with the bishop's office. The parson refuses claiming he now has been cleared and has the legal rights of serving in his local church until he retires.

Last Friday evening he held a meeting in the church. The media reports that 200 of his supporters were present and that a majority of  them voted to support him in his claims.

At the same time 400 people have signed a petition requesting the young energetic and spiritual interim pastor be installed as their permanent parson. Yet the old parson states he will still demand his rights, even if he has to take the case to court. He also claims he had the full rights of kissing and caressing. . . and that this was part of his pastoral care - and of his own personal needs.

It is understood that the parson received a full salary during his suspension. The lawyer of the State Lutheran Church has stated that the bishop has the full legal rights to transfer a parson to a different job.

Would you support the bishop or the parson?

[Johann]

Now the mother of one of the girls involved tells the media that her daughter will still need much professional help.

[princessdi]

I would support neither.  He needs to be fired, especially after his comments about his rights to "kiss and caress".  His dynamic lawyer might have cleared him in the trial, but he just messed it all up with that statement.....kick him to the curb and quickly!

[Johann]

An adult mother has now appeared on local TV stating she and several other teen age girls had been treated the same way by the same parson in an earlier pastorate. She said the girls had been afraid of notifying their parents or the authorities. She is starting a support group for the young girls who now have the notified their parents and the authorities. After this lady has appeared on TV she has received a very threatening phone call.

There seem to be certain similarities. . .

[princessdi]

.......too many similarities, Johann  But this man is just unrepentant, claiming his right to basically return to the scene of the crime, claiming kissing and caressing as a right.  He is pretty sick.

The SDA church should be ashamed, well all demons involved in this despicable practice should be ashamed, but SDAs who also practice a form of religious elitism that is second to none because we have the "Sabbath".............and as it stands now, if God really did save us as s denom and not as individuals, because of the actions of administration, we ALL would be lost at this point...........

I always was kind of disappointed in our failure to realize that we were in the same state as the RCC(and every other denom) in this area, and were not safe from some kind of huge investigationa and/or legal action.  I hope that NCC has already witten the young lady the check for $5 mil.  There was no excuse for the actions of the church to allow a regitered sex offender to continue to teach in our schools.  no matter the other facts of the case.  Just pay her and every other one he offended.

[Nosir Myzing]

An adult mother has now appeared on local TV stating she and several other teen age girls had been treated the same way by the same parson in an earlier pastorate. She said the girls had been afraid of notifying their parents or the authorities. She is starting a support group for the young girls who now have the notified their parents and the authorities. After this lady has appeared on TV she has received a very threatening phone call.

There seem to be certain similarities. . .

Similarities to what?
A scarecrow, or an accuser of the brethren?

Well, one thing you, Linda and all your cronies can be thankful for is that you will not be judged by american jurisprudence, or the SDA Church as you judge others.

But.. Are you really saying that "accusations despite proof of that and in contradiction to civil judgments and a pronunciation of guilt still equals guilt, despite the fact you have no personal knowledge of said situation?" Then wait! Aren't you a Pastor? Aren't you a bible believing fundamentalist? well, sorry then,You have condemned yourself and LS too, and you appear to be in big trouble! How many accusations against you all are there?

I'm just sayin....


Mat 7:1-2Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Jam 2:13      For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Maybe it's time to look in the mirror?


1Cr 11:31      For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Comprehende?

[Nosir Myzing]

.......too many similarities, Johann  But this man is just unrepentant, claiming his right to basically return to the scene of the crime, claiming kissing and caressing as a right.  He is pretty sick.

On what basis do you declare this? Johann's unsupported word?

I personally know nothing about this situation or each case, but I am not willing to condemn another with zero evidence against him or proof. I wonder how and why you do?

[princessdi]

Nosir Myzing,

Cute name, first of all............Do I know you?  Anyway, just a short explanation.  I posted a news story a few weeks regarding a lawsuit being filed again one of our local academies by a young woman who says, and it was proved that she was abused by one of the teachers.  In short, the teacher had come to California from Idaho, where he was already a registered sex offender.  After the incident at our local school, he was then allowed to go and teach at teh Reno(Nevada) Jr. Academy, where two years later he was convicted of having sex with one 15 year old, and fondling another. Johann posted this story a little while later.  I believe it is the similarities to those two stories to which he is referring.  He will correct me if I am wrong.  The stories, while extremely sad and unfortunate, are not uncommon.  It is the same story as the RCC with clergy abusing their position of authority to abuse members of their congregations, with the churches not taking appropriate (if any) disciplinary action against the offenders.

Why not just ask doe clarification if you didn't understand?  There was no need to insult neither myself or Johann.

[Nosir Myzing]

Nosir Myzing,

Cute name, first of all............Do I know you?  Anyway, just a short explanation.  I posted a news story a few weeks regarding a lawsuit being filed again one of our local academies by a young woman who says, and it was proved that she was abused by one of the teachers.  In short, the teacher had come to California from Idaho, where he was already a registered sex offender.  After the incident at our local school, he was then allowed to go and teach at teh Reno(Nevada) Jr. Academy, where two years later he was convicted of having sex with one 15 year old, and fondling another. Johann posted this story a little while later.  I believe it is the similarities to those two stories to which he is referring.  He will correct me if I am wrong.  The stories, while extremely sad and unfortunate, are not uncommon.  It is the same story as the RCC with clergy abusing their position of authority to abuse members of their congregations, with the churches not taking appropriate (if any) disciplinary action against the offenders.

Why not just ask doe clarification if you didn't understand?  There was no need to insult neither myself or Johann.

Princessdi,

Your story has nothing to do with Johann's. I know adulteresses, and I know many stories also, that doesn't make you an adulteress or guilty of those things,  true?

I did understand, and I was not attempting to insult you. I asked a question. If you didn't like the answer don't blame me.

Here's the deal.

I gave another, this minister, reportedly found not guilty according to his local court and supreme court the benefit of the doubt, you did not, you judged him guilty merely on the unsupported word of another with a proven agendamwho was repeating only hearsay and something he has no personal knowledge of. (Johann)

I do not need clarification to reserve judgment or to extend mercy, but you do need clarification to make a judgment as you did and to render a guilty judgment rather than mercy. I'm sorry. You are wrong. That is my bonafide opinion.

[princessdi]

Well, all I can say is that I have no reason to doubt Johann's story at this point.  It did cross my mind that it might be a hypothetical situation.  It also occurred to me that Johann might not have been able to post a newspaper article as I did, and definitely not the new clip.  As I said, with things the way they are currently, it is more likely than not that the story is true.  Hyptheitcal or not, with the story as he told it, I stand by my position.  It's Johann's story, he told it and asked for opinions...I gave mine.

You evidently have a problem with Johann, and most of the members of this site, because of the 3ABN situation.  I don't have to share in that.  I have spoken to Johann on [several] boards and in private chat for a few years now.  I have no reason to doubt him.  Now you, are a different case altogether.  You might be somebody I have spoken to before, or you might not.......My take is I don't know you from a can of paint. So, on that basis, Johann just has more credibility at this time.

Now, do you live near Johann and know this story to be false or falsified in some way?

I got the part about the courts and his church, however, I was going on the part of what the man said himself.  The entire post is in Johann's words, you chose to believe the part about the church,(rather 200 members of his church) and the courts, and stop there.  I chose to believe all that, the 400 members who,and the local church board, plus in the man's own words that he feels he has done nothing wrong.  Now I could understand you better if you discounted the entire post. We cane xtend mercy all day long, i believe his church did by not firing him, but offering a job which doesnt' require his constant contact with a congregation.  he is refusing that mercy.  it would be irresponsible of the church to then again place him in a position to offend again, especially seeing as he believes not only did he do nothing worng, but it was part of his job and his personal right.

Princessdi,

Your story has nothing to do with Johann's. I know adulteresses, and I know many stories also, that doesn't make you an adulteress or guilty of those things,  true?

I did understand, and I was not attempting to insult you. I asked a question. If you didn't like the answer don't blame me.

Here's the deal.

I gave another, this minister, reportedly found not guilty according to his local court and supreme court the benefit of the doubt, you did not, you judged him guilty merely on the unsupported word of another, Johann's.

I do not need clarification to reserve judgment or to extend mercy, but you do need clarification to make a judgment as you did and to render a guilty judgment rather than mercy. I'm sorry. You are wrong. That is my bonafide opinion.

[Johann]

Quite interesting how NM comes to a conclusion. On what basis? How does she/he  know that my story is based on hearsay?

What I reported is what has been reported officially. Once in a while I meet this Lutheran parson. I could have gone to his meeting last Friday held only two minutes from our home, but I decided not to go because I'm not a Lutheran, and he knows who I am. But some of our friends went there. . . and we read several reports in the papers.

Just the other day this parson opened the door of a moving car driven past him by a young mother who is a member of our family. Do I need legal counsel to tell you she was uncomfortable? Or to let you know that the Youth Department of the Lutheran Church has made an open statement demanding this parson be ousted from his ministerial society? That other pastors and counselors in the Lutheran Church are writing in the newspapers that pastors have to follow a higher moral code than demanded by the civil laws - interpreted by his defense lawyer - which the State Supreme Court based their verdict on?

Similarities? I live by the conviction that the Lord's requirements are high above the laws of any country in this sinful world. Does Nosir Myzing request an exemption for her/himself? Should we not learn from what happens around us?

[Johann]

A secular radio station has asked listeners to indicate on an Internet ballot if this Lutheran Pastor should be returned to his church.

87% said "NO"

13% said "Yes"

[Johann]

The media today state that our local Lutheran pastorate will be announced vacant next week. It also states that the suspended pastor will be doing private pastoral duties through the bishop's office which indicate the parson has accepted that his legal battle is hopeless.

He still has a theoretical possibility which is that he applies for the job from which he has been suspended.  It seems evident that if the pastor who has been assigned to this pastorate until the end of this year makes an application for a permanent assignment he will be accepted because he has become very popular in the area. A few months ago we attended the funeral of a relative conducted by this pastor. It was beautiful and deeply spiritual, and he took full consideration to his SDA background and relatives who are members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. There were about 1.200 people present at this funeral.


If this temporary pastor does not apply, and all other applicants are men the church would rather not have than the suspended pastor, then he has a theoretical possibility of getting his old job back. His problem would still be that it is the same bishop who makes the final appointment after nine committee members of the local church and the area dean have indicated which applicant they prefer.

The courts can deal with temporal matters, but that does not apply to spiritual matters and church morals.

[princessdi]

True, Johann. In this case there maybe some relief, but in.... Ahem!....others where the church position is little better if any at all than the courts, what can be done?

[Johann]

There might well be men in high leadership in the Seventh-day Adventist Church who were hoping that someone would succeed in reducing the powers of a self appointed "pope" ruling the church from the fringes.

When such a "pope" has sufficient financial powers that task is difficult. Some rejoice that HOPE is now running as the official Interntional TV net of the Church. But HOPE still needs our prayers and support to succeed and meet the competition. Church members need to be aware of the fact that we do have an official TV channel and that 3ABN is not a SDA TV, and it is 3ABN which decides independently on which programs to transmit without the approval of our denomination.