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[Murcielago]

Thats my thought on the illegal immigration thing anyway. When it comes to providing for the rest of the world, we can always dismatle the engine that feeds us alot, and gives them a little in order to give them alot right now, then we can all be equal in poverty. This country is rich because of ingenuity and desire to be wealthy, and mostly because of the freedom to pursue it and keep it... not because of lofty ideals or nebulous blessings. Remove any of those factors and the whole thing crumbles.

[christian]

George,

Thanks for your response, however it is my belief that your response is exactly why we are still as Christians here on earth. Fortunately for this great country there are those that do not think like that. All over the world there are people who have been blessed that have taken that blessing and tried to distribute it the those less fortunate and less blessed. Actually, the scenario you started with is exactly what we did to God, and yet he gave all he had even his life. From a human standpoint and from human reckoning we would all horde what we had gained though (our) ingenuity and intelligence. -----Obviously, we are not talking about the extreme you used to substantiate your position. The actual reality is that the vast majority of Mexican human beings, God's creation, work extremely hard even more than you or I. We are talking about the work of God caring for the sick, no matter who they are. The Good Samaritan was a perfect example of one that gave because of love for humanity asking nothing in return. I cannot see any rational reason why any (Christian) would want to keep someone from medical care it just does not make sense. It is disheartening to hear supposed Christian talking about what is theirs and about their ingenuity etc... We cannot operate on the same principles as the world. Jesus showed with the fish and loaf how the acts of kindness do not work on mans limited power.

[christian]

George,

I just want to ask you straight foreward, do you believe that Mexican illegal immigrants should be denied medical treatment?

[tinka]

Seems to me George that after the fall and sin All are doomed, sinners, and lost unless they come by the rules of truth, and honesty by the way of the Holy Spirit, the Son and can live according. Our ONLY responsibility is to share the good news for those that except. Satan has always used the sympathy theory to down the followers of Jesus because we are human. It is Satan's way of distributing away to another and fall to deceivement. (Ya know sort of sending all the crying for money to DS before being deceived.) We are our brothers keeper, but our brother is to be evenly yoked and brother in biblical means Christians. But there is priority of funds as it was in biblical days.

An example is if a child and mother were the only ones involved and if the mother starved herself to death to feed the child they would both die because no one would be there to take care of the child. So we are told to be reasonable in all things.

First of all--All humanity is lost if they do not come on their own to God. The US cannot save the world and every countrys' people. The US is this strong because they fought against on how other countries cannot support their own people. In their weakness they look and take or rob the ones that prevailed.
 
There are those that believe what you just saw posted and they are already seared to the hilt of "One should not have more then another"
and a true Christians know better then that.  This type of person is indoctrinated from another culture or just plain racist hiding behind an agenda to help bring down what this land was built on and I've known for sometime now this harassment specifically for this purpose of nasty posting. So far I have read nothing sane coming from closed minded and distorted belief.

When you spread the wealth is only helps the robbers do more robbing. It will only finish taking their soul. They never learned, heard or been taught self help, independence in work thinking or ability to manage. Just get it however you can. (hmmm, like OBAMA did)!! IT IS UP TO INDIVIDULALISM TO HELP THE POOR. WE WILL NOT BE JUDGED AS A NATION ON TAKING AWAY FROM OUR PEOPLE TO GIVE TO ANOTHER. IT USUALLY IS POLITICALLY REASONED. We have organizations that do help our own that is voted to do so. but now they plan to force us into oblivion. What is so crazy is that on top of that we will be taxed even more for doing it.

Guess BO's ploy for games in Crime Town cost about $1,000,000 blew out in the jet stream!!  He could have saved it and called me!! I knew the outcome as it was not hard to judge but him and ol Opry who I used to love to watch and MO had a nice vacation didn't they!!   Oh and she had another cartoon dress on that was highly laughable. In fact I alway look now when I hear she is on as my curiosity and funny bone looks for the next creation of the MO dress.  The gold one last time --was that supposed to represent a rooster's tail out the back. ?? Then in the next shot it appeared they took it off.  I think the ones taking the shot really were shocked as they seemed to catch it at the right funny angle. I just burst out laughing.

Believe me, I could have made her look a lot better, as in my day I have created and designed wedding, dresses and etc, custom drapes in some pretty high class homes and offices, wedding cakes and sort of have a taste for refined, conservative and elegant look. I could have done it for a lot less money,and made her actually look good but then again I blame it on her own taste of dress. and that says a lot for a person like that. I would not be caught looking like that for no money.    I'll be glad when this fisaco is over and it is coming....

[Murcielago]

Christian, I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, in principle. I have no issue with giving, helping, providing... I have spent alot of time in the poorer parts of Mexico and have lived in thatched huts in the middle of the jungle on a couple of continents. With my own eyes I have watched good people die because they didn't have proper care. I have also seen excellent care brought in by good people who were willing to put out their money, time, and other resources, and seen many lives saved. I have also seen good providers of free healthcare and education cease from existing after they and their  patrons were nationalized in the mass hysteria of "socialist revolutions" that resulted in curtailing of services to the people. Yes, it may be a Christian duty, but we do not live in a theocracy where the prevailing religion has a right to impose its principles on everyone through government regulation and taxation. There are good organizations out there providing healthcare, education, food, clothing, and more. These organizations largely survive on donations given freely and without the force of government requiring it. The donors get tax deductible reciepts as the original intent of the 501-c3 allows. There are other religious organizations who are nothing more than a religious business sucking taxes out of the system and tax payers, and providing insignificant or no charitable services. These, in my opinion, should be required to pay taxes just like any other business, and certainly not be able to issue tax dedutible reciepts. In short, I believe that charitable giving should be up to the individual and not forced by the government.

Check out Ryan's Wells sometime. An excellent example of how much more effective even a child can be at helping people and making money provide more service than any government can do.

[christian]

Christian, I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, in principle. I have no issue with giving, helping, providing... I have spent allot of time in the poorer parts of Mexico and have lived in thatched huts in the middle of the jungle on a couple of continents. With my own eyes I have watched good people die because they didn't have proper care. I have also seen excellent care brought in by good people who were willing to put out their money, time, and other resources, and seen many lives saved. I have also seen good providers of free healthcare and education cease from existing after they and their  patrons were nationalized in the mass hysteria of "socialist revolutions" that resulted in curtailing of services to the people. Yes, it may be a Christian duty, but we do not live in a theocracy where the prevailing religion has a right to impose its principles on everyone through government regulation and taxation. There are good organizations out there providing healthcare, education, food, clothing, and more. These organizations largely survive on donations given freely and without the force of government requiring it. The donors get tax deductible reciepts as the original intent of the 501-c3 allows. There are other religious organizations who are nothing more than a religious business sucking taxes out of the system and tax payers, and providing insignificant or no charitable services. These, in my opinion, should be required to pay taxes just like any other business, and certainly not be able to issue tax dedutible reciepts. In short, I believe that charitable giving should be up to the individual and not forced by the government.

Check out Ryan's Wells sometime. An excellent example of how much more effective even a child can be at helping people and making money provide more service than any government can do.

Then I take it we should not deny medical care to illegal immigrants, is that what you are saying? George, some of what you say makes common logic sense, but the Christian must operate on a different plain. The bible is full of things that take faith and trust in God from the death of Christ to the 4 sided cube city that is coming down from out of space, all these things are of a supernatural nature. If I operated out of the laws of physics and the like then I would have to conclude that 2-1=1 but then Gods ways do not operate on those laws. People like Abraham (would sacrifice his son) and others like Gideon would have to operate on the principles of Gods love, void of rational human understanding. So you see when it comes to doing good to all men, then individualness and the greed that comes from ownership must be put aside so that the will of God can go foreward. Christianity must supersede nationalism that the works of God can go foreward. It would seem that we are losing something by caring for the poor and less fortunate and even the sinner and law breaker when in reality we are gaining if it is for the cause of God.

[tinka]

I'm telling ya George,
It's intentional flaky nonsense from outer limits of no return!  Poor soul! It's a twister effect everytime. and I might add no common sense. It is also exactly what we are dealing with in the east and also the filtration from with in. Nothing is rational or reasonable!! No Comprehension of reason or American tactics. Ignoring is the best policy according to EGW.  Jesus ignored the crowd before Crucifixion. But then if your not from US you may not have the same passion as we who are in the order of American way! It was based in the beginning on inspired principles and of course you can see the vivid attacts mounting to destroy it as evident on these posts and all new political agenda's that the devil has prepared way ahead of our deceived and naive scope.

[Murcielago]

Christian, I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, in principle. I have no issue with giving, helping, providing... I have spent allot of time in the poorer parts of Mexico and have lived in thatched huts in the middle of the jungle on a couple of continents. With my own eyes I have watched good people die because they didn't have proper care. I have also seen excellent care brought in by good people who were willing to put out their money, time, and other resources, and seen many lives saved. I have also seen good providers of free healthcare and education cease from existing after they and their  patrons were nationalized in the mass hysteria of "socialist revolutions" that resulted in curtailing of services to the people. Yes, it may be a Christian duty, but we do not live in a theocracy where the prevailing religion has a right to impose its principles on everyone through government regulation and taxation. There are good organizations out there providing healthcare, education, food, clothing, and more. These organizations largely survive on donations given freely and without the force of government requiring it. The donors get tax deductible reciepts as the original intent of the 501-c3 allows. There are other religious organizations who are nothing more than a religious business sucking taxes out of the system and tax payers, and providing insignificant or no charitable services. These, in my opinion, should be required to pay taxes just like any other business, and certainly not be able to issue tax dedutible reciepts. In short, I believe that charitable giving should be up to the individual and not forced by the government.

Check out Ryan's Wells sometime. An excellent example of how much more effective even a child can be at helping people and making money provide more service than any government can do.

Then I take it we should not deny medical care to illegal immigrants, is that what you are saying? George, some of what you say makes common logic sense, but the Christian must operate on a different plain. The bible is full of things that take faith and trust in God from the death of Christ to the 4 sided cube city that is coming down from out of space, all these things are of a supernatural nature. If I operated out of the laws of physics and the like then I would have to conclude that 2-1=1 but then Gods ways do not operate on those laws. People like Abraham (would sacrifice his son) and others like Gideon would have to operate on the principles of Gods love, void of rational human understanding. So you see when it comes to doing good to all men, then individualness and the greed that comes from ownership must be put aside so that the will of God can go foreward. Christianity must supersede nationalism that the works of God can go foreward. It would seem that we are losing something by caring for the poor and less fortunate and even the sinner and law breaker when in reality we are gaining if it is for the cause of God.

Then superced the nation, and as a Christian go out and provide. That is what I am saying. There are too many people who want the government to do this and that "because it is the Christian thing to do." The government is  not a Christian, nor is it a church or any other form of religious institution. If Christians want something done as a matter of religious principle, then they should take it upon themselves to do it individually, or through the Christian organizations. The government tends to be the ultimate copout when people want something to be done, but will will not take the gumption to go out and do it. I agree that Christians should operate on a different plain, but that means operating. It does not mean finding a surrogate, such as the government, to operate instead.

[tinka]

George,
There is not a better way to state this truth.

[christian]

Christian, I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, in principle. I have no issue with giving, helping, providing... I have spent allot of time in the poorer parts of Mexico and have lived in thatched huts in the middle of the jungle on a couple of continents. With my own eyes I have watched good people die because they didn't have proper care. I have also seen excellent care brought in by good people who were willing to put out their money, time, and other resources, and seen many lives saved. I have also seen good providers of free healthcare and education cease from existing after they and their patrons were nationalized in the mass hysteria of "socialist revolutions" that resulted in curtailing of services to the people. Yes, it may be a Christian duty, but we do not live in a theocracy where the prevailing religion has a right to impose its principles on everyone through government regulation and taxation. There are good organizations out there providing healthcare, education, food, clothing, and more. These organizations largely survive on donations given freely and without the force of government requiring it. The donors get tax deductible reciepts as the original intent of the 501-c3 allows. There are other religious organizations who are nothing more than a religious business sucking taxes out of the system and tax payers, and providing insignificant or no charitable services. These, in my opinion, should be required to pay taxes just like any other business, and certainly not be able to issue tax dedutible reciepts. In short, I believe that charitable giving should be up to the individual and not forced by the government.

Check out Ryan's Wells sometime. An excellent example of how much more effective even a child can be at helping people and making money provide more service than any government can do.

Then I take it we should not deny medical care to illegal immigrants, is that what you are saying? George, some of what you say makes common logic sense, but the Christian must operate on a different plain. The bible is full of things that take faith and trust in God from the death of Christ to the 4 sided cube city that is coming down from out of space, all these things are of a supernatural nature. If I operated out of the laws of physics and the like then I would have to conclude that 2-1=1 but then Gods ways do not operate on those laws. People like Abraham (would sacrifice his son) and others like Gideon would have to operate on the principles of Gods love, void of rational human understanding. So you see when it comes to doing good to all men, then individualness and the greed that comes from ownership must be put aside so that the will of God can go foreward. Christianity must supersede nationalism that the works of God can go foreward. It would seem that we are losing something by caring for the poor and less fortunate and even the sinner and law breaker when in reality we are gaining if it is for the cause of God.

Then superced the nation, and as a Christian go out and provide. That is what I am saying. There are too many people who want the government to do this and that "because it is the Christian thing to do." The government is  not a Christian, nor is it a church or any other form of religious institution. If Christians want something done as a matter of religious principle, then they should take it upon themselves to do it individually, or through the Christian organizations. The government tends to be the ultimate copout when people want something to be done, but will will not take the gumption to go out and do it. I agree that Christians should operate on a different plain, but that means operating. It does not mean finding a surrogate, such as the government, to operate instead.

George,

Let me see if I can read you correctly, So you have no problem with helping the poor so long as it is not the Government? So tell me which side of your mouth is talking the Christian side or the worldly. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people and especially the Christian wanting the government to take an active part in caring for the sick and less fortunate. It is the Christians tax dollars as well as the non Christian. We have no choice when it comes to the billions of dollars spent on nuclear and chemical warfare design to snuff out lives, and yet there is very little protest over that. And to somehow imply that those wanting the government to help the poor are looking for a surrogate is less than genuine. We can always find or create scenarios to fit our thinking or reasoning but the end conclusion is still the same SELFISHNESS. There is no reason for the Christian to take up the cause to deny anyone health care except that there hearts are cold. The Christians duty is to represent Christ in showing compassion to those less fortunate but more worthey than themselves. I still cannot fathom why you or any Christian would be oppose to anyone helping the poor and less fortunate. What difference does it make who relieves suffering and shows Christian kindness, Government or State or Church. You seem oblivious to the billions of dollars spent on weapons design to cripple maim and kill and yet more is spent on these things than the combination of all the aid given to help and perserve life; you are definitely as a Christian on the wrong side of the argument.

[Murcielago]

No you don't read me correctly. I am not advocating nuclear or chemical weapons, or warfare as a matter of Christian principle that the goverment should enforce, and I will differ strongly with anyone who does. I have seen nothing Jesus ever said advocating the use of government authority to enforce his will on anyone, even for benign purposes. On the other hand he and the apostles encouraged his followers, very successfully, to care for others themselves and pool their resources in the church to provide for the needy. I have no problem with a person wanting the government to help take care of people on the basis of their own care, data, or political persuasion, but when a person or group has so little substance that they sink to attempting to use people's spirituality to manipulate them politically, they lose my respect for their position entirely. The "Christian Right" has been using that as a means of directing political traffic for a long time, and they make me sick. I find it equally despicable regardless which side it comes from. The tired old "You are less Christian than me if you disagree with my politics, ideas, wishes, etc" removes any respect I might have had for a person's position. Yes, unlike many of my right leaning friends (and some left leaning friends who also use spirituality to manipulate) I believe that spirituality and government should never mix, and under no circumstances should religion be used to move politics. You have your spiritual beliefs that you hold to as strongly as people who believe that the military might of the USA is God given and should be used to enforce their perverted version of Christianity on the world. Both are terribly dangerous and in principle are fundamentally the same in their desire to use government authority to establish and enforce the utopia of their choice. When one has data, ideas, points to make that are fact or desire driven, outside of attempts at spiritual manipulation, I listen, appreciate, and and am sometimes moved to change my thoughts politically.

[christian]

George,

Sorry if I seem condescending I don't mean to be I was just stress my opinion. Actually, I definitely agree with you about mixing religion with politics. However, I know of some close friends who have been destroyed financially because of lack of health coverage. I am fortunate to have free coverage being a veteran, even though now we have to pay a certain amount if we work. My sister in-law suffered from a heart attack and financially, she owns her own business, she was destroyed and the medicines cost thousands. So this issue is personal with me (no ill against you) you really seem like a good guy.

[tinka]

Force is from the devil and Choice is from God in all things creational and political. But very very sadly George It will be the downfall or what we expect will happen in the end by the complete "force" of the final religious persecution. It is obvious the separation of which side one can be on without any doubt. That is truth you speak at any expense.

[tinka]

Hmmm,
In the beginning Church and then governent finished, took and destroyed all for us too. Our folks went to their grave in debt because of having to buy medicine and put it on credit cards that I discovered later while faithful and still gave tithe to church and "regretable offerings" to 3abn . But that does not give us the right to "force others to pay" for our individual needs. The only thing we have now is having "faith that God will care for us each day" as we think we are hanging by a thread. So far we are warm now and had a garden again to be sustained.

But Jesus never had his own bed either.

[Murcielago]

George,

Sorry if I seem condescending I don't mean to be I was just stress my opinion. Actually, I definitely agree with you about mixing religion with politics. However, I know of some close friends who have been destroyed financially because of lack of health coverage. I am fortunate to have free coverage being a veteran, even though now we have to pay a certain amount if we work. My sister in-law suffered from a heart attack and financially, she owns her own business, she was destroyed and the medicines cost thousands. So this issue is personal with me (no ill against you) you really seem like a good guy.

That I can understand. IMO, forcing people to purchase health insurance without putting caps on premiums, taxing existing premiums up to 40%, fining people who are unable to afford insurance, and jailing them if they can't pay the fine, is not healthcare reform. This is what all of the current plans call for. In my opinion caps should be put on premiums, insurance should open for purchase anywhere in the USA or overseas, pharmaceuticals should be open for purchase from anywhere in the world, community clinics operated by Nurse Practitioners and Physician's Assistants should be given tax breaks and subsidies, "charitable" organizations that do not provide significant charitable services should be stripped of their tax exempt status, schools should teach the realities of life in other parts of the world, children and schools should be encouraged to launch and participate in meaningful charitable activities, military transportation should be made available for NGO transport in charitable operations... I could go on and on.