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[Murcielago]

I will go on to say that my biggest problem with all of the plans being put together is that none of them address the issue of reversing the anti-trust exemption, and none of them address the high cost of premiums. In fact, they plan on RAISING premiums by adding up to a 40% tax on them. If a person can't afford to pay that now, how will they afford to pay it next year? The statement "affordable plans" is subjective and nebulous at best. There is no definition for it. An affordable plan to someone making minimum wage would be what... $5.00 a month? I have lived on minimum wage and know how hard it is to just barely survive. How can they afford $200, 300, 400... a month more? They can't. Then what? Pay a huge fine to the federal government or go to jail. That, IMO, is reprehensible and irresponsible. It is a way to say that they have done something good, when they have simply burdened the poor people even more.

[tinka]

George,
I just heard that today too. That was the best suggestion so far.

[tinka]

George,
Pay or get insurance next year?? I heard that this plan will not go into effect until 2013 or more. The big joke and out right deceivement that Obama got everyone to vote for him to get immediate relief is to me a really big hoax. You see what  I sort of understand is that there is no money to pay for his big socialistic idea that everyone fell for his "help is on the way plan".  So what I am hearing is this. We will be taxed all these years big time in order to pay for it in future years. So-- we have to pay for it before years in advance?  iIf something really big happens before then or something changes.  Where is the money that was supposed to be paid for some thing that might not happen. We have already been hoaxed big time with all the extroadinary pay offs.

Hmmm, how does everyone like paying in installment plans for some thing you might not get in future years but a great "big bong" on the head. Are we stupid or what??

[princessdi]

The problem is, Tinka, is that in his Innagural address, he especially emphasized tht none of it would happen quickly.  He said most the things that needed to be corrected would problably take longer than his present tenure.  He did not tell anyone, anything would happen instantly or even quickly.  It was the direct opposite.  He also emphasized that they might make mistakes and have to start over, or go to Plan "B", "C". or even "D".  We had never been in the situation he inherited, therefore, no one knew exactly how to bring us out of it.  However, he would do the best he could.

Isn't everyone paying into Social Security, and has there beent alk that some who are paying might not get that to which they are entitled?

Socialist? Tinka, once again I point you to the early church.  Would you consider them social........each giving only has they had, but always getting what they needed, not based on what they gave?  Where do christians get such selfish thoughts.  It is not at all Christ-like to be fearful of helping anyone in need.

[Murcielago]

That sounds a bit like Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell, James Dobson and others who claim that if you don't agree with their politics you are less Christian than they are.

[Murcielago]

Ok! Now I understand why the White House and the Senate refuse to include Pharmaceutical reforms in the "healthcare reform" bills. The White House cut a deal with the Drug industry whereby the industry would fund an ad campaign toward passage of the "healthcare" bill, to the tune of $100 million or more.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i8RDSl65WFPHvC7xWMOPApdecI3QD9BEM6UG0

[tinka]

Princessdi,

I really do not think Obama will be around the 2nd term to see this corruption completed. election is coming up. I would like very much for everyone to have medical but not this way! 

[princessdi]

No, not at all on my part.  Now to be perfectly honest, in regards to this continusing and ever changing discussion, Tinka, is the only one who has assumed someone was less christian, and even intelligent for having a differing opinion.  To her credit I called her on it and she has stopped(I'd like to thank her for that consideration also).

What I am talking about is the mandate given to us by Christ.  when He described what would be required of us on judgment day, it was not our doctrine, etc.  He said, it would be, did you, feed/cothe the poor, visit the sick, etc?  Jesus put no conditions on which poor were deserving or not.  However, we have.  We can't even make decent policies to feed, clothes, house, or provide medical care for the poor for fear that one that we believe undeserving might get some advantage. 

The insurance companies have shown us what they want to do.  They are about their bottom line, not insuring those who can't afford thier exhorbatant(sp) prices, or have pre-existing conditions(which is almost everyone), and sentencing many to certain disabilites and even death for those who are members of their plans by refusing vital treatments.  They can do this, because there is no real competition.  They compete with each other, not even across state lines, but they all still have the same practices.  So changing from one to the other brings little relief or change.

Pres. Obama did not have to make any kind of deal with the insurance companies.  You know they think ahead and they could see this day coming with the increasing reports and complaints about the high price of staying healthy with their products.  Seniors citizens having to choose between food  and meds, etc.   If you have noticed, most of the companies, if not all, now have some assistance for those who can't afford to buy their meds.  It is they who had to get on somebody's band wagon and do better by their members lest they lose them to a public(and probably cheaper) option. 

That sounds a bit like Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell, James Dobson and others who claim that if you don't agree with their politics you are less Christian than they are.

[tinka]

Princessdi,
We are not going to be saved in what we did as a nation or how we shared with other countries. Because taxes force us to give.  We will be judged only on what we did as individuals. No one can change this truth.

There was only one time that God changed his mind and that is when a whole nation repented before he destroyed them.

In case of doubt about this I alway refer to something simple in reasoing out the facts.
Force is of the devil
free will is of God.

Why is there this enforcement. Even If it did help the people it might not be so bad but Di it is not geared for that. The picture is much bigger.

[princessdi]

I'm sorry, I am not doing a good job in explaining my position aobut christians.  not that we are saved as a group, but asd individuals in individual realtionships with God, we ought to see our fellow man, brothers and sisters in Christ, as He sees them, and honor that which He gave us to do which is to help each other.

I don't believe it is force. But in the other countries, if I am not mistaken(please correct me if I am), you can have your private insurance if you  wish, however, if you don't then you take part in the national plan, but you go to get treatment when you are ill.  As of now, the world is combating a pandemic of Swine Flu.  What other disease will get to this point?  In the face of that, can we afford to have a significant part of our population unable to get treatment, immunizations, etc.  I believe that would be quite harmful to the entire nation, would t it not?  Or are we into the "survival of the fittest" mindset?

[tinka]

Princessdi,
have you looked into or thought about just what is in a shot for swine flue. are you that trusting of what is going to be put into your body???

I do not trust what all drs. say and do. Just some if they are knowlegable in God's way of health. I know drs. personally that probably will kill their patients with wrong diagnosis and treatment and some that did. It's all about the money and how much they can get! and...there is no way I can think any other way. I am too old and too experienced and read too much and found only to trust in God's way. He did not leave us with no instructions or remedies of His own and smart drs that obide the same way.

[princessdi]

See, now that is why I said "treatment, immunization".  Firstly, I take no flu shots.  They tried to convince me to get just the regular flu shot last year this time when I was in the hospital, but stopped once I told them that I had never, even had the flu.  I only get a mild cold about once a year.

The point in my post was to accommodate which every treatment one chose for themselves. They are entitled to that right, but for them to be able to get treatment when they need it.

[tinka]

I know what you mean, and if the sytem could be fixed for that to happen that would be wonderful, but I am reading what I can about whatever is turned loose in the bills and it to me is horrifying, expecially for the poor. It is a trick to tax more and more when the promise can't now be trusted. It is kind like the "junker car thing" it is a hoax if you follow it through and realize where they will get it all back plus some. It makes me angry because most people do not have the time or way to find out these things as they are too busy trying to survive with work, It takes people like George that really really ventures into the facts and then tries to tell the people and so far he has been right. I try to read some late at night or early early in am if not able to sleep to see some of it. My husband also stays on it. We mostly get into it because of our total interest in what EGW wrote although you finds sentences scattered here and there throughout until you can come to conclusion of what is happening. I still can't believe it is happening for us to see in this generation.  The picture is more then bigger then meets most eye.

We have a way that is sort of inside things an some of it just makes us sick an we cannot believe it is before us happening.  In future watch the connections.

[princessdi]

Aaaaaahhhh!  I see. i am beginning to understand you position in all of this now.  It is something that I over looked.  Makes more sense, even if I can't totally agree.

[tinka]

Princessdi,

I hope more and more people can grab broader picture as we are coming to the culmination of all things.