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Author Topic: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know  (Read 81744 times)

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Murcielago

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2009, 12:27:13 PM »

So sorry about your sister-in-law. I hope she is recovering ok. I know that can be very hard, especially if there are kids. Is she able to start doing business again yet?
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Emma

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2009, 12:50:53 PM »

Well thought out, George.
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Johann

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2009, 02:08:14 PM »

If you can avoid personal attacks these discussions could be beneficial. Future posting privileges are available to those who avoid the personal attacks. This applies to all forums on this net.
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Murcielago

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2009, 05:31:42 PM »

I think Christian and I are establishing a good conversation here. I am interested in hearing your thoughts on how healthcare can be reformed in a meaningful and effective way, Christian.
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Emma

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2009, 07:55:32 PM »

I can only speak for the Australian model.   There is a public health care system to which any citizen or permanent resident can have access,
free of charge.  That is not means tested.   The system is supposedly funded by a tax levy of about 1.5% on all tax payers, although it does cost
more than that.

In addition to that, anyone has the option of taking out private insurance.  Higher income earners who do not have private hospital insurance
face an additional Medicare levy.

For emergency situations, the system in general works very well.  For elective surgery waiting lists can be quite long in the public system.

There is a Prescription benefit systerm which subsidises the cost of prescription medicine, most heavily for those on welfare and limited incomes.

There are also a couple of safety net systems which give added payments if families or individuals are out of pocket more than a given amount in
any one year.


Obviously not perfect but at least we are not going through all the angst inspired by the current US options.
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Johann

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2009, 08:47:32 PM »

Most countries in Europe have a system that is somewhat similar. I just had two cataracts removed and now I see again as clearly as not for many years. Our government health system funded by taxes paid for most of is, but I had to pay about 100 US$ myself. A good portion of this I will get refunded as a senior citizen - and because is is close to the end of the year.

We have no illegal aliens because the citizens of most neighboring countries can travel freely and settle permanently if they want to. If they take residence they are covered as well. This is not true of US citizens because the US does not care for us if we travel to the USA. Private hospitals are coming, and they will be mostly for Americans who come here and can receive the best treatment here for much less than it would cost in USA, even counting the air travel back and forth.
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Murcielago

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2009, 09:53:37 PM »

Interesting. What are your thoughts on the current plans by our president and the congress to enforce mandatory purchase of insurance by all Americans with fines and possible jail time for those who can't afford it, without putting caps on the premiums, allowing competition between states, or allowing purchase of pharmaceuticals from Canada or other countries?
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princessdi

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2009, 10:33:27 PM »

George, from what I am hearing, the President's plan sounds a lot like what Johann and Emma are describing.  Notice there is still the option to keep your own private insurance.  To my knowledge the President always plainly siad that if you already have private insurance and like it, you can keep it.  the other options were for those who were not as forunate.  Why are there people acting as if everyone will have to be on the public plan?  I am not quite sure why everyone over looks that.  Also, why we don't believe it will not cost us money, it will, but mostly the same money we are payin on emergency or advanced care state by state, for those who don't have insurance for whatever reason.  I am also not quite sure why we don't see that supplying the opportunity to go tothe Dr. before you need to go to emergency is a lot cheaper that advanced meds, surgeries, and ICU. So elective surgery takes a lot longer to get.  At least EVERYONE will know when they won't die because they could not get the adequate health care.

Plus, I have been thinking where we, as christians, have gotten so far off the path. that we don't believe that being a chirstians also means having a sense of community.  Think the Early Church.  Everyone got what they needed, I believe that laso maent medical care....such as it was, not just food and clothing.  Those believers were a community.  When did we get so scared or selfish that we don't want anyone to get anything when WE believe them undeserving?
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It is the duty of every cultured man or woman to read sympathetically the scriptures of the world.  If we are to respect others' religions as we would have them respect our own, a friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty. - Mohandas K. Gandhi

Murcielago

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2009, 12:29:30 AM »

No, it sounds nothing like the plans from Australia and Europe. Johann and Emma, Do they mandate that you have to buy health insurance, either from the government or from a private insurance company, or be fined and possibly jailed if you if you can't afford to buy it, in Europe and Australia?

All my life I have had to deal with people on the far right trying to use the "you are less Christian then me if you don't agree with my politics" thing. I consider that to be a form of manipulation and don't respond well to it at all. Facts, feelings, political affiliation... these I can understand and deal with, but I detest the use of spiritual manipulation in politics used by the "religious right" and I destest it with equal fervour when it comes from any other side.

You speak of the early church. That was the church. Not the government. IMO, one of the most dangerous things one can do is to try mixing the two, or manipulation of people's spirituality to drive politics.

Princess, if you read back on the previous page you will see that I am very much for healthcare reform and care for everyone. But not in a way that cheats by saying that healthcare for everyone has been enacted when all it is, is mandated purchase of something very expensive without even putting a cap on how much can be charged. I consider it to be a short-term thing that will simply bankrupt lots of people who are already living hand-to-mouth.
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tinka

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2009, 02:21:44 AM »

Right on George,

Then if you are really bad sick you will be taxed and charged more. It was all explained last night according to part of the bill.

Also I noticed that Emma states that higher income people can also take out more Private insurance. Right there is the key! Why would they have to other then they may be first place in line for more and added care??? not sure about that. It is true what George says but... its worse then that as we learn just bits and pieces of the secret bill that seeps in here and there. The sole purpose is to break America within and what else is planned is shriveling. Some of us do know the outcome.

You know this is quite an experience to go through. Most people just live day by day and do not make the effort one way or the other to see what is coming down or even care because tomorrow the sun comes up and another day to make it.

I totally realize this is the fate also when Jesus comes. The excuse will be...I did not know of this.. but the effort was not to find out either. Look for the details in finer print. That is what Ellen was inspired to write and Jesus knew we needed this. For sure we were not as knowledgeable as Adam and Eve and they still failed.
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Murcielago

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2009, 12:36:42 PM »

One also has to wonder why congress refuses to let their own members and the general public see the legislation they are voting on... What are they hiding? What do they fear if they act with transparency? This is one reason why I strongly opposed the Patriot Act and consider it the poster child for "how not to legislate." Also, the stimulus package that went back on one of the insurance reform ideas. It was done quickly and in secret so no one would know that a bunch of pork had been slipped in at the 11th hour for huge bonunses to AIG executives. The dems proved that they were no different than the Repubs.
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tinka

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2009, 04:35:15 AM »

"Disturbing Echoes From Our Socialist Past"
By Ron Ewart, President
National Association of Rural Landowners
and nationally recognized author on freedom and property rights issues
© Copyright October 14, 2009 - All Rights Reserved

And you think that Obama invented socialist/Marxist policies in America.  Hardly!  Seventy six years ago, another socialist/Marxist/dictator (FDR) took control of the reins of political power in the United States, as the alleged savior of the people who were being torn asunder by one of the many emergencies (the Great Depression) Americans have had to face since they declared their freedom from an arrogant British King ..... emergencies that are in large part, created by government itself.   Instead of letting a free country save itself by the actions of free people using free choice, ingenuity, creativity, productivity, low taxes and regulation and a government limited by our constitution, those in Government saw a quick way to make the American people dependent on government and thereby getting them to vote for those who "saved" them.  Or put another way, "buying their vote" with money from the public treasury, money that the government has a fiduciary responsibility to religiously protect and spend wisely, in strict compliance with the explicit instructions contained in the Supreme Law of the Land.
 
Describing what FDR did TO America would take volumes and many volumes have already been written covering those events.  FDR almost single handedly took America from a free, wealthy, hard-working and prosperous nation and converted it into a welfare state during his three plus terms as President.  After starting his unprecedented fourth term, he said this on a cold January day in 1944, after his re-election: 
 
"This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain unalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.  As our Nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness. We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.  (He should know) In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all… Among these new rights are “The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries, or shops or farms or mines of the Nation; The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation; The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living; The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad; The right of every family to a decent home; The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health; The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment; The right to a good education.”
 
It is unbelievable that any President who swears on solemn oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States as written, would utter such words.  His oath, nor his power as President, did not give him the authority to re-write the Constitution, as he apparently was attempting to do with this speech.
 
We would like to address one event that took place in 1937, the year this author was born.  As part and parcel of FDR's continuing New Deal programs in the 1930's, the U. S. Housing Act, passed in 1937, provided housing assistance for low income families and individuals.  It was codified into the United States Code as Title 42, Chapter 8, Section 1437f.  It became known as Section 8 Housing Assistance and is currently administered by the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD).  The program is now known as the "Housing Choice Voucher Program".  Still a "skunk" by any other name.
 
Today, the Federal Government is spending over $20 Billion per year on Section 8 housing alone, assisting over 2,000,000 households, or around 8,000,000 to 10,000,000 people ..... people who no doubt will vote for those providing the assistance.
 
From an article published in the Policy Archives on-line magazine in August of 2005, the following statements were made about Section 8 Housing:  "Over the past several years, the program has come under fire for its rising cost.  (surprise! surprise!)  From 2001 to 2005, the cost of the program has increased by over 34%, although the number of people served has remained roughly the same. These cost increases can be attributed to a number of factors, not the least of which is the structure of the benefit.  The value of a voucher is calculated as roughly the difference between rents in a community and 30% of participating households' incomes.  In recent years, rents have been rising faster than incomes, which, along with federal policy changes designed to expand household choice and deconcentrate poverty, has driven up the cost of a voucher and therefore the cost of the program.  In FY2005, the overall Section 8 program, at more than $20 billion, accounted for over half of the entire budget of the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD).  The voucher component alone constituted more than a third of HUD's budget.  In order to provide that funding level while remaining within discretionary budget caps, congressional appropriators enacted funding cuts to almost all other HUD housing programs."
 
On further investigation we found that 50% of the recipients of Section 8 Housing were single, 44% were single with children and married couples with children hardly registered on the graph.  Could it be that government housing subsistence replaced fathers?
 
But what illustrates the true nature of Section 8 housing occurred recently in an e-rumor about one Sharon Jasper who was shown in her Section 8 home, above.    Please note the furniture, flowers, hardwood floors and one very large flat-screen TV.  Now that is real poverty!  A tough life if there ever was one.
 
Like so many rumors, there is an element of truth in them.  Purportedly, Sharon has spent 57 of her 58 years living in Section 8 housing for all but 1 of her 58 years.  Apparently, it was a legacy passed down from her parents who moved into Section 8 housing in 1949 when Sharon was just six months old.  Sharon has even passed the legacy down to her children (where is the father?) but fears they may have to get jobs to pay for the utilities and deposits.  God forbid!  She laments about that one year she spent out of public housing.  "I tried it for a year", Sharon said, "you know, working and all.  It's not anything I would want to go through again, or wish on anyone in my family, but I am damn proud of that year."  Damn proud?  Really!
 
Section 8 housing is Sharon's "free" gift from the working people of America.  No doubt Sharon is receiving food stamps as well.  She believes she deserves every bit of it and that it is her right.  The big question still remains, under a Constitutional Republic is free housing to others a right, when the cost of the free housing must be extracted from others with the force of law (taxes), rather than through voluntary charity?
 
Whether the e-rumor is true or not, millions of people like Sharon are the victims of generational dependency on federal, state and local government handouts, all paid for by the producing members of a wealthy America.  Subsistence for housing, food, college, SSI, health care, transportation, etc. are paid out or handed out to low income families and individuals by the millions.  But instead of it being a helping hand up to a productive life, much of this largess has become a life unto itself.
 
Although it is a deep injustice that so much of our tax money has been spent (or is it wasted) in this manner, the deeper tragedy is the outright destruction of human lives who have found it easier to live off the sweat and hard work of others (that's you and me) rather than being proud of their independence, responsibility and self-reliance, had they taken the truly American path of hard work and receiving a pay check for the work they do, or the elation that comes from achieving a worthwhile goal they have sought, or receiving an honest reward for a job well done ..... but not a Nobel Peace Prize for achieving nothing.
 
Now, our current government, instead of letting a free country save itself by the actions of free people using free choice, ingenuity, creativity, productivity, low taxes, less regulation and a government limited by our constitution, those in Government are using the same quick way employed in the 1930's to make the American people dependent on government and thereby getting them to vote for those who "saved" them.  Or put another way, "buying their vote" with money from the public treasury.  Money that the government doesn't own.
 
Unfortunately, 2009 is a far cry from 1933 in terms of the exponentially exploding costs of socialist promises made by government in the last 76 years, who did not have, nor do they have now, constitutional authority to do what they are doing.  With unfunded liabilities of well over $100 Trillion dollars (that's Trillion with a CAPITAL "T"), adding more socialist programs onto the rising annual deficit ($1.4 Trillion) and national debt (over $12 Trillion) is not only unconscionable and insane, it is treason by any other name.
 
As the number of Sharon's of this nation grow larger as a result of grossly negligent government premeditated socialist policies, those who must pay for the Sharon's of America will have to dig deeper and deeper into their pockets.  One wonders at what point will those who must pay, cry out "enough is enough" and either hide what they earn, cheat, or join Sharon and the millions of other Sharon's, in a life of generational dependency, paid for by those hard-working Americans who haven't seen the "light" yet?
 
One other question remains and that is how much damage can Obama do to America, before he and his co-conspirators in Congress are replaced by voters who are hopefully, getting wiser by the minute?
 
 
 
 
 
Ron Ewart, President
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF RURAL LANDOWNERS
P. O. Box 1031, Issaquah, WA  98027
425 222-4742 or 1 800 682-7848
(Fax No. 425 222-4743)
Website: www.narlo.org
Check out NARLO's "Letters to Congress" campaign
at www.narlo.org/letters.html
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princessdi

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2009, 01:55:51 PM »

George,

I understand that you and many others are for healthcare for all, and that we just all differ in ideas on how to get there.  Ok, so someone cannot afford to "buy" healthcare, isn't that where the public option(governemnt funded) comes in?  I might be missing something, but what I see is the existing healthcare industry not wanting the competition.  They are now guilty of ALL the things for which they are campaigning to make people afriad of in a government option(death panels, etc.).. Once again, we still are and would be paying for these uninsured folks on a state level through programs, like Medical(in CA), etc.  What is the difference? Your state or federal taxes are paying for the healthcare for those don't have insurance.  I am not understanding the difference here.

I am not sure it is a bad thing to require that everyone have some kind of healthcare insurance, an then provdiding several options to make it possible?  Imagine the fall out of those with H1N1(andother such extremely contagious diseases) who could not get any treatment, still out there in the world spreading that super pandemic porportions............just a bit scary.   IOW, if everyone had access to at least basic healthcare, we could significantly dminish the epidemic (even pandemic)threat.  This is also, at some point, a public health issue, schools, workplace, churches, etc.)

My comments about the Early church were directed at christians who hold the opinion that there are people who are unworthy or such a basic right to decent health and healthcare.  The early church was portaying something new and different, in that the world felt as they do today.....only those who can afford to pay should have health insurance(or any other baisc right), however, they were a community where ALL had what they needed not based on what they could contribute.  So I am not expecting the mindset of the early church grom government, but I don't believe it unreasonable to expect it from those who claim to follow Christ.

No, it sounds nothing like the plans from Australia and Europe. Johann and Emma, Do they mandate that you have to buy health insurance, either from the government or from a private insurance company, or be fined and possibly jailed if you if you can't afford to buy it, in Europe and Australia?

All my life I have had to deal with people on the far right trying to use the "you are less Christian then me if you don't agree with my politics" thing. I consider that to be a form of manipulation and don't respond well to it at all. Facts, feelings, political affiliation... these I can understand and deal with, but I detest the use of spiritual manipulation in politics used by the "religious right" and I destest it with equal fervour when it comes from any other side.

You speak of the early church. That was the church. Not the government. IMO, one of the most dangerous things one can do is to try mixing the two, or manipulation of people's spirituality to drive politics.

Princess, if you read back on the previous page you will see that I am very much for healthcare reform and care for everyone. But not in a way that cheats by saying that healthcare for everyone has been enacted when all it is, is mandated purchase of something very expensive without even putting a cap on how much can be charged. I consider it to be a short-term thing that will simply bankrupt lots of people who are already living hand-to-mouth.
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It is the duty of every cultured man or woman to read sympathetically the scriptures of the world.  If we are to respect others' religions as we would have them respect our own, a friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty. - Mohandas K. Gandhi

tinka

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2009, 04:36:08 AM »

For what ever it may concern, "The poor will be will us always" ---because of sin Jesus knew and gave us freedom of choice. We are not all perfect but some are more industrious then others. some are givers and some are takers. I just don't like that the majority have to pay for the this specific trait of character that feeds their own selfish selves..

I believe in Health Reform too but not the Obama Care way. It is worse then communism.  Watch what happens to your own private insurance if this goes through! It is complicated to understand for sure(and meant to be) till it hits home and you discover what happened.
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Murcielago

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Re: Political facts happening in case some SDA's wants to know
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2009, 01:58:17 PM »

The major chokehold on health insurance reform, and the primary reason for the veritable monopolies they hold is legislation that expempts them from federal anti-trust law that governs every other industry. Were the fed to repeal that loophole, the health insurers would be forced into a a competetive national (and possibly global) market. I don't have a problem with a public option as long as actual insurance reform first takes place and the government business then falls under all of the rules and regulations that govern the private insurers... AND purchase of the product is not mandated by law. They are not talking about the public option being free, it will simply be another insurance company that sells insurance but is owned by an umbrella organization that has the power to enforce purchase of the product on pain of fines and possible jail time. I am more in agreement with a senator from Arkansas who put a proposal on the table that, instead of creating another mammoth federal beaurocracy, would simply extend Medicare to include people under retirement age who can't afford anything. I think that in conjunction with the vast savings that could be reaped from repealing the anti-trust exemption given the health insurers, opening up the pharmaceutical market to include purchase from foreign sources, and incentivising a large number of Nurse Practitioner/Physician Assistant run community clinics to open up across the country, we could afford to extend Medicare without any significant additional burden on the tax-payers.
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