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[Pat Williams]

So, 3-D what do you do with the two men who are brothers who have been abused by TS as young men?  Seems that there is a letter where TS admits it happened.  So he has never been convicted by a court of law, that doesn't mean that he is not guilty.  OJ is as guilty as you can get and he went through a trial and got off.

OJ is a strawman and has nothing to do with TS or 3abn.

First of all Grat, TS was a Pastor of the Church of God and married, he was dead wrong having a relationship with a church member. He has repented of that sin, he has been in counselling for it, and he is no longer a pastor. He apologized to Duane, took all the blame on himself,  and tried to make it up to Duane Clem, and encourage him too to get help also, but there is a letter which Duane Clem sent him saying that he had never hurt him and there was nothing to forgive. To this day Duane Clem denies he needs any help. It was Duane Clem who tried to initiate contact with TS again and it was TS who told him they could never be alone together again because of the past, but said that he and his wife would meet together with Duane and talk to him and try to help in whatever way they could.  Duane did not want that.


Second of all, Duane Clem was an adult who entered into a wrong relationship and met TS and drove himself to those meetings on his own. He in his letter to Bob Pickle claims it was TS who broke off the relationship saying it was wrong. He also says TS accused him repeatedly of "faking it" and that once TS realized he didn't want the relationship he stopped. This to me suggest that the adult Duane Clem did not ever say "NO", or tell TS that he did not want anything to happen between them, and if he had it never would have occurred. So it is debatable wither the relationship was an abusive or consentual one. Duane Clem is a very large man, in heighth and weight, and TS is a very small man who is dwarfed by the man he is accused of molesting. For those who have seen and met both and know the characters of each the whole rape molestation story is utterly unbelievable.

 In any case it was not a case of Pedophilia and that is the accusation which has been made against TS and what 3abn and DS have been accused of covering up over and over again.

The other brother has problems, and I don't mean that unkindly, yes he made angry accusations , but what are they specifically? Do you know? I don't. TS has never admitted to doing anything with him in the letter you refer to or otherwise, and even his own brother Duane in reply to Bob Pickle's questions about that said he could not comment as he would get in trouble with both sides no matter what he said.

Now ask yourself this Grat. If Duane said that yes his brother told the truth, certainly that would cause TS to be upset, but as he was already accusing TS it is all the same, and why would that get him in trouble with his brother? If he said no it wasn't true, obviously that would cause a problem with his brother. And why has his brother never filed a complaint as he threatened to. He said he could due to his current age and having checked into recent changes in the law. That brother has never even written out what he is claiming even occurred so there is nothing to check, investigate, confirm or deny.

Without charges, or facts to back anything up, and with no investigation nor trial, how can you accept what he claims and believe TS is guity?

The truth is their mother was among the most staunch defenders of TS. And the fact is not even the Church of God that he pastored in Virginia has any statements from any alleged victims to go on. Only claims by Pastor Dryden that they have decided can not be accepted as anything but hearsay without those statements.

I really am sick of the witch hunt here. If any accusing TS really wanted to see justice done, they would see to it that papers and statements were filed. Even if the statute of limitations has run out, the counties involved would still have a record to use in case it ever came up again. But nothing has been reported nor filed, yet there are so many yelling guilty and accusing others of covering up sexual crimes and defending a pedophile.

That's all I have to say about this matter Grat.

[Pat Williams]

3abn defender,

...

10. Validity rules (of the court) supersede DS or Dr. Days poor and mishandled saga( DNA testing story). Don't you agree?

Tinka try very hard to comprehend this. There were no court rules involved, nor disregarded. It is perfectly legal to order and pay for and use a home DNA test which is what Dr Day chose to do and did. No Id's or fingerprints are required. You can do it where ever you choose, and they did.

I think I know who you really are  

Well bully for you!  I am quite sure you are as clueless about who I am as you appear to be about the DNA test. In case you didn't understand my wave before, let me elaborate. I am done trying to reason with you now and will not be replying to you any further. You appear to me to be a very silly, confused and irrational person, bent on believing the worst of people and on accusing them without any evidence so further attempts from me will not help either of us. So carry on without me and have fun!

[tinka]

Comprehend this,
There is no validity without the rules. The chosen DNA tests was the bad move to make a true Validity for court. Those DNA test could be for anyone without the proof and say anything they want for whoever took them..and still be true to whoever took them . A court of law will not except them in the manner done for 100% sure. That was the bad move.

I'm not silly I just have to laugh and laugh at the justifications you really have to work to think of....the more said the more justification!!! Gotcha funny one as you down the bunny trail.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Boy, did I ever strike a nerve over at the other site, which some here refer to as the smut site, which I never thought I would ever repeat here, until after I was informed about and read about the dirt they were trying to conjure up against me there!!!!

If they were really looking for the truth of Brandy and Danny and Linda and Danny, and everything else, they would never have posted such gossip against me as they posted there!!!

And all because of what I asked there and what I said here in this thread.

May God have mercy on their souls!!!

[Bob Pickle]

What other posters claimed this? Sister? That was an old post which Bob Pickle quoted from years back from another forum, and excuse me but she was not in a position to know what she was saying. Her posts were over the top and ugly. She just repeated the gossip, slander and rumors as she heard them and presented them in an even uglier way without one shred of evidence to back anything up ....

But one little tiny requirement for her allegation to be true has been confirmed by an eyewitness. Yet while that doesn't necessarily mean that the allegation is true, it does make it difficult to declare with certainty that it isn't true.

First of all Grat, TS was a Pastor of the Church of God and married, he was dead wrong having a relationship with a church member. He has repented of that sin, he has been in counselling for it, and he is no longer a pastor. He apologized to Duane, ....

Has he apologized to the sons of Moms in Pain #1 and #2? And to the other fellows? He knows who they are.

And the fact is not even the Church of God that he pastored in Virginia has any statements from any alleged victims to go on.

Mighty strange of you to make such an assertion, Tommy_Defender. Mighty strange.

It's only been since July 2008 that just such a statement has been available on PACER. It's Doc. #81-11, pp. 8-9. See those pages at http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-81-11.pdf.

Read the answer to question #3 where that individual wrote, "He tried to perform oral sex on me ...." (Duane told me he wasn't surprised by this.) I won't quote the rest. You can read it for yourself.

Never seen that before? No one ever told you it was there? Not even Danny?

I would like to know, Tommy_Defender, why you feel it necessary to defend a pedophile, in the name of defending 3ABN. It sure doesn't make sense to me.

[Bob Pickle]

5. Do you deny the jets and personal travel?

--- Tinka, I do not deny that Jets were leased, as it is a huge expense to fly all of the 3abn crew as well as take all the recording equipment and all else all over the United States and the world. There was a donor who provided funding earmarked for that expense, as was his right, ....

That's what we thought. But then we apparently found out that the one who allegedly was bankrolling the expense really wasn't.

Which donor were you thinking of?

I do deny that Jets were used for personal use. Can you or anyone else claiming this prove this occured? NO

YES. Danny used the jet to go to Wichita on April 15, 2004, to get marriage counseling.

He also used it in connection with the lawsuit in 2007. He was present at a hearing in Massachusetts in May 2007, having flown there in the jet along with the attorneys that were representing him as an individual in that suit. Therefore, half of the travel expenses of that jet for that trip were private and personal, and I think that half should have been reported on his W-2 as compensation.

Was it so reported?

7. Do you deny "pew money" going for documented gigantic attorney's fees to hide documents that if all was on up an up that would not have been necessary?  It's always easy to prove truth if you have it!!  Where is it?

Tinka, yes I deny that. A donor earmarked money for a lawsuit against Pickle and Joy, and the purpose of that lawsuit was not to hide documents. That is just ignorant.

I would say that your assertion sounds ignorant.

But at any rate, who was the donor that earmarked the money? I think there wasn't one, and I think I can prove it.

The purpose of the lawsuit was to sue Pickle and Joy for lies and slander and libel. Why are you asking me where the truth is? Pickle and Joy shouldn't have to get it from 3ABN, they should have already had the proof before they made their accusations and claims, or they shouldn't have made them.

Not so. They claimed defamation per se, which rolled the burden of proof upon us. However, the standards of court and press are different. A reporter should have two sources before he runs with a story. But just having two sources tell you that Danny made a killing on book deals isn't enough to prove in court that the plaintiffs knew from the get go that their suit was frivolous.

8. Do you deny other relationships and quickies? fast divorce and instant new family is "visual proof" and back on divorce again?

--- Yes Tinka I deny it.

On what basis do you deny it?

[Bob Pickle]

So, 3-D what do you do with the two men who are brothers who have been abused by TS as young men?  Seems that there is a letter where TS admits it happened.  So he has never been convicted by a court of law, that doesn't mean that he is not guilty.  OJ is as guilty as you can get and he went through a trial and got off.

Grat, there are actually two such letters. See http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf and http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-19.pdf.

The latter letter is at http://www.Save-3ABN.com/, but the former letter is not. It is pretty damaging. Tommy admits to having "caused a lot of pain in many people's lives," not just Duane's.

[Johann]

Boy, did I ever strike a nerve over at the other site, which some here refer to as the smut site, which I never thought I would ever repeat here, until after I was informed about and read about the dirt they were trying to conjure up against me there!!!!

If they were really looking for the truth of Brandy and Danny and Linda and Danny, and everything else, they would never have posted such gossip against me as they posted there!!!

And all because of what I asked there and what I said here in this thread.

May God have mercy on their souls!!!

Jeremiah 9:5
And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.

[GRAT]

FYI 3-D, for all your work and defending you didn't convince me one iota that TS is not guilty of abuse.  Just because he has not been convicted does not make him not guilty.  It does not matter to me if the person was just at legal age of consent or his size or weight.  TS used his position to take advantage.  He admitted to it in his letterS.  And what about the letters from the other mothers of young men or boys?  He is a lucky man that he didn't come in contact with my sons.  He might not have lived to confess.  You don't mess with the cubs of a momma bear!  And don't try to shame me with "that is not christian", won't work.  Go defend all you want but your defense is full of it.

[tinka]

Grat,

RIGHT, GRAT ME TOO!

THEY HAVE TO SHOW JUSTIFICATION SO THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY LOVE TO DO.  BE SEEN ON TV. I GUESS?? THIS IS MENTAL NOT TO BE ASHAMED. JUST CAN'T FIGURE OUT THE WIFE EITHER. THAT IS TOOOO MUCH FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND.  MAYBE I AM A RED NECK YANKEE WOMAN AND AFRAID HE WOULD HAVE COME INTO SOME "DETAILS" WITH ME...

Moderator Hat on: Tinka, we try to be respectful and avoid shouting here.  Please use lower case (= inside voice) in your posts.

[princessdi]

Am I mistaken or is someone trying to justify, defend or deny TS' actions with young men/boys in any way, shape or form?  I am with Tinka and Grat...at the very least he is guilty of abusing his postion of authority....and that is just for starters.   I thought this was already a for gone conclusion, and TS admitted to at lesat some of his wrong doing....still in denial for some in some significant ways....still taking jobs around young men and boys.......something like an alcoholic going to the bar. 

You tell 'em Momma Bear!!!

FYI 3-D, for all your work and defending you didn't convince me one iota that TS is not guilty of abuse.  Just because he has not been convicted does not make him not guilty.  It does not matter to me if the person was just at legal age of consent or his size or weight.  TS used his position to take advantage.  He admitted to it in his letterS.  And what about the letters from the other mothers of young men or boys?  He is a lucky man that he didn't come in contact with my sons.  He might not have lived to confess.  You don't mess with the cubs of a momma bear!  And don't try to shame me with "that is not christian", won't work.  Go defend all you want but your defense is full of it.

[Pat Williams]

FYI 3-D, for all your work and defending you didn't convince me one iota that TS is not guilty of abuse.  Just because he has not been convicted does not make him not guilty.  It does not matter to me if the person was just at legal age of consent or his size or weight.  TS used his position to take advantage.  He admitted to it in his letterS.  And what about the letters from the other mothers of young men or boys?  He is a lucky man that he didn't come in contact with my sons.  He might not have lived to confess.  You don't mess with the cubs of a momma bear!  And don't try to shame me with "that is not christian", won't work.  Go defend all you want but your defense is full of it.

I didn't think for one minute that I would convince you of anything Grat. I was merely trying to answer the question you asked of me. If you don't want to hear my answer don't ask for it. Your response seems very childish and petty to me in light of that.

But since you replied I am going to take this opportunity to make some clarifications here. The first being, that the only thing TS ever admitted to or apologized for was his relationship with Duane, which was not child molestation.  No one made TS take accountability and man up and apologize, no one accused him or pressured him or exposed him. He did so because he was wrong and knew it and his conscience led him to do so. You can choose to believe him guilty of the rest but you need to stop saying he admitted to all the rest when he never did, because that makes you a liar.


Next. The accusations against TS and DS and 3ABN concern child molestation and coverup. Duanes case has nothing to do with that. It was not child molestation, there is no cover up. It has been admitted to and apologized for and attempts to make it up to Duane and help him have been made.

And Lastly. What about the letters from the Mothers, Grat? They sound heartbreaking don't they? Unfortunately they don't accomplish anything except for what Pickle put them on his website for, stirring up emotions, rousing the mob, and causing them to scream for blood, and light those inquisitional fires. They certainly don't overturn the police investigation and church investigation of TS all those years ago.

The problem is that there are no letters, statements, or complaints filed by their sons.
There are no dates details or any complaints filed to either investigate or rebut to establish guilt or innocence. Nothing has been done to establish any kind of record with either law enforcement or any county or social agency or even church facility. NOTHING AT ALL.

You don't apparently need that kind of thing to determine whether a fellow human being is guilty or innocent, nor feel it necessary for others to be able to face their accusers or investigate anything diligently as God tells us to in his word, and  I know that you don't want to hear about how unchristian your rush to judgment and pronouncements of guilt are. The fact is, it is unchristian regardless of whether I say it or not, and whether you choose to hear it or not, and I can think or say what I choose to, Grat. I guess some people just have the type of character and thinking where they would prefer living under communistic or tolitarian rules and regimes I see you as one of those people btw and think you would have blended well in the dark ages, and screamed "crucify him!" with all the rest. I think it a crying shame and sin.

Despite that I hope you and your sons never have to face accusers like you, Pickle, Di and others. DespiteTS being denied his rights, his accusers still deserve and have the the right to face their accusers, and be able to count on their church and their civil agencies to make sure that the truth is established and justice done.

[Pat Williams]

So, 3-D what do you do with the two men who are brothers who have been abused by TS as young men?  Seems that there is a letter where TS admits it happened.  So he has never been convicted by a court of law, that doesn't mean that he is not guilty.  OJ is as guilty as you can get and he went through a trial and got off.

Grat, there are actually two such letters. See http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf and http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-19.pdf.

The latter letter is at http://www.Save-3ABN.com/, but the former letter is not. It is pretty damaging. Tommy admits to having "caused a lot of pain in many people's lives," not just Duane's.

Bob Pickle,

Here is a fact for you to chew on.

Causing pain in many peoples lives does not equal admitting to having molested children or anything else besides causing pain. If that is the case you with all the pain you have caused in the lives of the Shelton's, those at 3ABN, and even the lives of those trying to defend them, are a convicted and condemned child molester and perv many times over.

And the fact is not even the Church of God that he pastored in Virginia has any statements from any alleged victims to go on.

Mighty strange of you to make such an assertion, Tommy_Defender. Mighty strange.

It's only been since July 2008 that just such a statement has been available on PACER. It's Doc. #81-11, pp. 8-9. See those pages at http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-81-11.pdf.

Read the answer to question #3 where that individual wrote, "He tried to perform oral sex on me ...." (Duane told me he wasn't surprised by this.) I won't quote the rest. You can read it for yourself.

Questions:

The document you filed in court, claiming that TS wanted but didn't preform oral sex etc ( makes you feel kinda hot and squirmy doesn't it?) was it filed anywhere else? Where? Does the church of God in VA have it? Does it have the name of the alleged victim or a date on it? What Pastor was that note written to? You or Dryden, or another?

And why, did the Church of God in Virginia decide that they needed to have a statement from an alleged victim or it was all to be treated as hearsay? Their board meeting and decision was after this document you are presenting isn't it? If not, why  do they still say they have nothing to go on? (Yes, I have talked to insiders there, and no, I will not tell you who.) I agree with you though. Something is "mighty strange" and not right here.

3D

[Pat Williams]

Am I mistaken or is someone trying to justify, defend or deny TS' actions with young men/boys in any way, shape or form?

You are mistaken. I am in favor of justice. I am not and would NEVER defend harm of anyone or a guilty individual either knowlingly or on purpose.

What I am trying to defend is Christian standards and even civil laws and rights.

All should have their right to make or defend charges, and it should all be done in the properly prescribed manner and right way and diligent inguiry made before guilt or innocence is determined so that the truth may be determined and justice be done for both parties.

Do you disagree with that, Di?

Unless you do, I dare to say we may stand on the same side.

and btw, did you tell Tinka that Danny either sexually abused or corrupted his daughter, Melody in your posts here on this forum?

Tinka has claimed that in 3 different posts in this thread alone and I have not seen you deny it yet although it appears you have read all of the topic as you are taking the time to reply to this. I am sure she and others see this as confirmation that she is correct in claiming that. Is that your position and claim? If it isn't also say so and don't contribute to or condone the deceptions and lies please.

3D

[Cindy]

Please don't bother with the self justifications or stories here on my account, I have read them from you before and sorry I am not interested in reading it again even if you throw in your horse again, as it is all delusion and self righteousness, and loving lies to me and YES, that is "my personal opinion" and "my personal Judgment." It is also my opinion that your posts are among the worst that this forum has to offer and as do many here bring shame and reproach upon Jesus' Church, and misrepresentation

LOL!! 

Well, that's rich, coming from you Cindy Conard Ford, administrator of the smut site!!      Hahahahaha!!!

Maybe you should go back over there and check on things in your own house before you bring you come over here throwing stones.  I dare you - go back and read some of the garbage you have allowed...AND EVEN CONTRIBUTED...over there and just imagine how you yourself have made Jesus feel...


Check out this link...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite

Snoopy, I am assuming that you read your dictionary reference before posting. I don't want there to be any un necessary problems so I am also presuming that there is nothing wrong with me replying to your post here or you, and that there is no reason for my reply to be removed, and that if there is that the admin will tell me what that is within 24 hrs as promised, so I can avoid problems in the future so...

 If you feel you have a legit complaint, plz go to the forum you keep maligning and file it with the forum admin and explain specifically what post(s) you are talking about what you object to in it or them,and why, so it can be dealt with. Plz do that in the same way that you ask your forum members here to do on this forum.

IMO, your generic complaints and accusations of "smut" and continual attempts at identifying me here are nothing but hot air and ire. Although they may amuse you or make you feel better, or allow you to vent, or serve whatever purpose it is that you have, they resolve nothing, and don't really solve whatever problem you perceive or think there is.

toodles...

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Ian:  Second ban imposed for repeating the same infraction that caused your immediately previous ban.