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[tinka]

Princessdi,
I mentioned several times before. I suggest the thing that would work is the "Fair tax" that was offered by other candidates. This way people would have the choice of what tax they wanted to pay with what purchases they felt they could handle. This beyond doubt would give the common poor people their fair earned dollar without the government taking and have more money to live as more equal for their living, medical and easier and less stressful. They can the manage their own life much better then the government then this horrific plan that is in store for us if we do not stand up to it. This would take away the IRS like we know it today. This is what Huckabee, Ron Paul, Alan Keys ran for their ticket. They are for the people. There was no need for this fiasco we are going through now. This is straight confusion for the people and if I would put a No. of one of the bills on here you would not believe the confusion of what they are saying in them that leave the people in complete dismay of what could happen to them. It is quite hard to understand and then I go to my husband and ask "am I reading this right and he says Yes. I just can't believe what is being done to deceive the people.  I remember long ago just being taxed on purchases.

You are right about one thing, Obama is at the top but he also selected the czars that are directing him as it is his agenda too. Some have communism background with communistic agendas and you cannot call that a lie. You cannot undue the scripts of tv with their faces and voices doing all there vulgarness.  Why do you think everyone on these tea parties are up in arms. Just for info and to show how and what is happening I put links for people to observe the militias taking form faster then anyone can think. Its going in leaps and bounds. It is scary, It's the whole picture. Not just the wearing of shorts.  I have just been enjoying the debate on here while time is going by to see the justice come into view on the DS saga of which I believe will happen as time gives up the truth.  

 Believe it or not there are people fighting for people united under the banner of Americans whether you think so or not! I believe all races are Americans as they fight side by side in defence of our individual rights to choose, and to give...if and when we want. Believe this too as George said in above post. The Americans gave more with their souls, money and hearts. They fought the same, they died the same and I will give the same for this freedom how ever I have to and that is what you are now seeing the people stand up too. There are too many Europeans in this country that know the directions and roads much better and are now Americans and are standing on front lines as you watch and hear there cultural background of language. They know, I know, our uncles and dads of many in this family fought world war 2 with a man that had wrong agenda's with pathes not too much different. Beings we are so close to sample end time events. We better take heed and fight for liberty as long as we can as we are told.

[Murcielago]

Lol! Yesterday evening a man who does not support the current healthcare reform plans lost his pinky finger when an "Obamacare" supporter bit it off at a moveon.org rally. The man promptly went to the hospital and availed himself of healthcare. I would imagine the biter probably hurried home to brush his teeth and ponder peace, love, and care for the physical wellbeing of everyone except people who disagree with him.

[princessdi]

Here is the problem with allowing others to "choose" what they want to pay for taxes.....historically, those who really should pay the most......try their hardest to get out of paying them at all. The "haves" going along way in finding loopholes while the have nots end up paying a consderable amount of their income to taxes.....for lack of loopholes.........Just make sure everyone pays their fair share is all.  As I said, we, as christians, can use the model of the first church.  Those who had a lot gave a lot, those who had a llittle gave a little, but ALL got what they needed.  I am not sure why we are willing to buy into big business' hype that it is bad to charge them their fair share of taxes on the money the make in profits from the American people.

I also like to add my thanks to George for the Chist like manner in which he presents his posts. Iam a firm believer that we can disagree without being disagreeable.   I am sorry that I am late to the last few days of this discussion.


My thoughts of racism and prejudice.........first some defintitions........we can all be prejudice, and only those in authority can practice racism.  Example:  I can hate another Child of God all I want because of the ethnicity, however, for me to exert racism requires that is be in authority of them and deny them any portion of their rights simply on the basis of that ethnicity.  Now this leads to my next comment......

Which is equality.  Yes, Tinka, there are programs and laws in place that help those who were initial denied the right to housing, employment, etc.  Now we would like to think that they are no longer needed, but truth is, they are.  the firestorm around the fact, from some, that Obama is even President in the first place is an indication that we have not yet arrived. The US spent the better portion of it's history not only denying the rights of women and ethnic groups, but treating them as property and/or less than human.  We cannot then just stop, or seem to stop and expect them to acheive the same as those who were......favored........the entire time.  They start out behind, because of the US racist actions, that needs to be corrected.  Not a hand out, but something that does level the playing field.  Most people I know, don't mind working for their living, but we also want to be assured that we will get fair housing, educational and employment opportunities.  We are not quite there yet.  It's getting better, but we are not there yet.  I don't know what it was take for the SDA church to abolish instituationalize segregation...only God knows......maybe they never will.  

Now, to be completely honest, I have experience precious little direct racial discrimination in my life. I was raised upper middle class family, and in my high school years lived in a suburban home down the street from former Raider's coach and NFL commentator John Madden, and form NFL player Gene Upshaw.  I have never lived in "the inner city", well I live closest to it now, but I was not raised there. I live in California, which is under the Pacific Union of SDAs and we don't have regional conference.  However, I am not blind.  I could be like some who assume that becuase it doesn't happen to them, it is not happening.  Or I could be someone along the lines of the natives who helped the slavers, and the slaves who betrayed other slaves to the masters, OR like some African Americans today who are just decidely blind, but I am not.  There is racial discrimination here in America, and it was not so long ago that it was every bit as bad as that in Rowanda.  Remember, the hangings, beatings, bombings known and still unkown.  Have you forgtten about 4 little girls who died worshiping in a House of God?  The man, who's name escapes me at ths moment, who wa not only beaten but drug behind a pickup truck until he was unrecognizable?  We are not that far from that.   Barak Obama was the first president candidate to get secret service ageents due to death threats.....just for running..........in 2007.......we are not that far from Rowanda.  Our GC President calls institutionalized racism, better known as Regional Conferences, cultural diversity............we are not that far from Rowanda......at all.   If some, even some posting on this site, would have their way, we would be Rowanda.

Oh and about healthcare...once again, we are already covering these same people state by state, only when they get critical. If this doesn't pass, then your state taxes will continue to pay for the uninsured.  What's the issue?  That you would rather the money come from your state taxes then your federal?  That is the only real choice here.  Nobody is unfamiliar with anything at this point, this is not a new fight, just one that keeps getting put aside.  It is just a simple case of the insurance companies having amonopoly ALL of this time and liking it.  It doesn't take make for them to convince some Americans that busting up their monpoly is a bad thing...after all, remember, we have that entire group who are dedicated to survival of the fittest...I got mine,you get yours. The real possiblity of another option,makes them have to do something different other than that which they are doing now.  They don't want to change.  Death panels?  They make decisions each and every minute of the day to deny crucial treatment to their paying members.  

[christian]

Princess,

  The very last statement of your post is the one that seems to be missed the most by those defenders of the status quo. The fact is that the insurance companies are making life and death decisions for people all the time. Not to mention the drug companies who charge Americans twice the amount of other nations.

And I can still not understand why in the world a Christian would take up a fight, knowing that 46 million people do not have health insurance, for the insurance companies and drug companies. They continue to say statements like Obama is trying to change 1/4 of the domestic spending, when in fact the insurance and drug companies are the ones that have done it with very little oversight for the last 40 years since Nixon.

Perhaps the reason that I am so upset is because the same individuals who report to be so upset with Obama were no where to be found when we invaded Iraq under false pretense. Many of them during that time supported the invasion because we were delivering the people of Iraq and giving them a better life. Yet when something so clear and documented as the lack of health care for many poor and out of work people they rise up like it is the end of the world. They still do not say why they are so upset, honestly, ask  Princess and then listen to their answer. They say they don't want the public option because they don't want government controlling health care. Yet Medicade and medicare are the primary suppliers of health care to the elderly and it is government run.  I can tell you it is the insurance companies that want to keep the prophit margin that are driving this debate.
But I can say without apology that some of it is driven by prejudice against a black man as president.

[tinka]

Yes, I remember seeing, reading and watching the horribleness of this you speak of. Those are the times I am for the death penalty. beyond any doubt. Honestly, I cannot stand human suffering. I actually get sick.  My oldest daughter is the RN and is much tougher then I.  Even when we approach a car accident my whole chest almost instantly caves in with much trauma for someone hurting or in danger. My daughter was the strong when any of our family was hurt.  I know I got through it but I am that way for a stranger.  I came upon a scene where I was the only one where a mother and 10 year old was in accident and the boy ejected through the windsheild with his face severed everywhere and eye lids hanging. I held his face together until someone came. I spent 2 weeks in hospital after that. I did what I had to do but my weak part crumpled. So I visualize much when things are graphic and so terrible to happen as like the man being drug. I did not have a christian thought at that time.  Now likewise I also would be a very reluctantly protector also if I had to. Guns and all, But I finally gave mine to my oldest grandaughter. As a kid some of my dates were going to the dump and learning to sharp shoot the rats. (laugh). So I wanted the death penalty for the rat that did what they did. Maybe this is all too personal to put on here. But I state my true self.  

I understand where you are coming from but I do not think you might understand the fair tax mostly. If rich people have more money they will buy more and therefore will pay more tax. I want more then any thing for all to be able to keep the money they work for at what work they want  instead of giving payday to the IRS. Then there is more money for housing, food, insurance, schooling and being able to be equal on those terms. The government taking the money even from the poor now on this craziness of being taxed to to the hilt with now more coming on is what brings the poor to "whats the use" their work is sub and no chance out.   Then when people have pride in work and no they will have the money, it will expand into big business and then it's on a roll again.  It is the government doing this under the guise of organizations that take their cut first and tax em to get it back. I do think the elderly, mentally impaired, crippled or incompentent people should have the help.  But this education thing is also a way for students to become indebted to the government under high interest and it is not fair either. IF you have time or the interest go to some of these other plans and follow it out that other canadates have. The fair tax is the best route for all to have a fair chance at living and the rest will go away. Maybe, (smile) because God has his Plans that will play out too. With farms gone not everyone can work at McDonald's. or be a doctor etc.etc.

[princessdi]

I have to agree, christian, in part......remember, the same people, or type of people killed Pres. Clinton's try at improving helathcare also, so I have to also say it is definitely political, and pretty much that the republican party is that survival of the fittest type org.   

Now the other comments, are defintiey deeply rooted in racial prejudice, from the fact that Obama is about to bring on the end of the work US, time of trouble.,et.c to Michelle's fashion choices.  The Obamas, if nothing else are an intelligent, beautiful black couple who love their children and each other upholding every one of those family values the republicans were yelling about for the past 20 years, and they won't even give them that much credit.

Princess,

  The very last statement of your post is the one that seems to be missed the most by those defenders of the status quo. The fact is that the insurance companies are making life and death decisions for people all the time. Not to mention the drug companies who charge Americans twice the amount of other nations.

And I can still not understand why in the world a Christian would take up a fight, knowing that 46 million people do not have health insurance, for the insurance companies and drug companies. They continue to say statements like Obama is trying to change 1/4 of the domestic spending, when in fact the insurance and drug companies are the ones that have done it with very little oversight for the last 40 years since Nixon.

Perhaps the reason that I am so upset is because the same individuals who report to be so upset with Obama were no where to be found when we invaded Iraq under false pretense. Many of them during that time supported the invasion because we were delivering the people of Iraq and giving them a better life. Yet when something so clear and documented as the lack of health care for many poor and out of work people they rise up like it is the end of the world. They still do not say why they are so upset, honestly, ask  Princess and then listen to their answer. They say they don't want the public option because they don't want government controlling health care. Yet Medicade and medicare are the primary suppliers of health care to the elderly and it is government run.  I can tell you it is the insurance companies that want to keep the prophit margin that are driving this debate.
But I can say without apology that some of it is driven by prejudice against a black man as president.

[princessdi]

Problem with that reasoning, Tinka, is that there are rich people currently and always, and it just doesn't work that way.  They are always spending because they always have it to spend, and we are still in the situation that we find ourselves now.  Don't believe the hype.

It is the same with big business. We were told that if we gave them consessions, and lowered their taxes, deregulated, etc. that the money would "trickle down".    Well, it didn't trickle anywhere, but flooded over to India, Bangladesh, etc. when those big companies took our concessions and tax breaks, laid off hundrends of thousands of American workers and turned to out sourcing.

I understand where you are coming from but I do not think you might understand the fair tax mostly. If rich people have more money they will buy more and therefore will pay more tax. I want more then any thing for all to be able to keep the money they work for at what work they want  instead of giving payday to the IRS. Then there is more money for housing, food, insurance, schooling and being able to be equal on those terms. The government taking the money even from the poor now on this craziness of being taxed to to the hilt with now more coming on is what brings the poor to "whats the use" their work is sub and no chance out.   Then when people have pride in work and no they will have the money, it will expand into big business and then it's on a roll again.  It is the government doing this under the guise of organizations that take their cut first and tax em to get it back. I do think the elderly, mentally impaired, crippled or incompentent people should have the help.  But this education thing is also a way for students to become indebted to the government under high interest and it is not fair either. IF you have time or the interest go to some of these other plans and follow it out that other canadates have. The fair tax is the best route for all to have a fair chance at living and the rest will go away. Maybe, (smile) because God has his Plans that will play out too. With farms gone not everyone can work at McDonald's. or be a doctor etc.etc.

[tinka]

So what is worse now!  No business! Everything going down everywhere! It will get worse. It is because there was not a fair tax system for all these years. The big government are the rich as they pat the backs of who help put them there. There is no other way or reasoning except for those facts.  Even the poor are taxed if not to IRS on everything that is essential for everyday living. This is the worst it has ever been and we will see even worse to come. GWB may have had his attention on the saftey and this got a way from him but still he should not have let this go..

Now the stage has been set for the biggie! The whole country is in turmoil. and who is spending when there is no money to spend. It might be a free trip for a few months but all will pay in the end or collapse the rest of the way.

[christian]

What would make a poor person think that a rich person would want to spread the wealth around when getting rich means hording? I can tell you from experience that in the poorer countries the rich make a point to keep the poor, poor.

[Murcielago]

Princess! It is a pleasure to have you here!

I appreciate your well thought out post. You point out an interesting distinction between prejudice and racism. I had always defined racism as racial prejudice. I will agree that on a very small scale actions like those in Rwanda take place here in the USA, and that in times past on a larger scale. On the other hand, we have not ever had a slaughter in the USA on the scale of what happened in Rwanda since our own civil war. I well remember the dragging incident from Texas, the little girls, and there are many such incidences that we don't hear about on the national news. Some hispanic boys who were beaten and killed, a white family who were attacked and beaten, an Arab boy... the list goes on. All here in the USA and in the last couple of years, attacked because of their race, and by people who didn't even know them. History shows us that every race is inherently racist and acts in violence against those of other races. It is also possible for people to live together. I have a multi-racial family. I have black, white, and hispanic siblings. We grew up together and are brothers and sisters who love each other. As kids there were a few knock down drag outs where someone who denigrated one of us for our race was taken down by all of us. We have had to deal with racism out of black, white, and hispanic, it is tiresome, and we don't tolerate implications that any race is inherently better or worse in any way. We are all driven by human nature and fundamentally none of us have the moral high ground based on race.

(Sigh) it seems that someone will always want to take our money away from us, big business, government... and each claims to be the better steward. Well, they have both proven too many times that they are terrible stewards of our money!

Yes, time has not erased what some people still living experienced, and it will likely take several more generations for the superior attitudes to further disipate. The election of a black president is a remarkable testament to how much a nation can change in just a few generations. As you point out, it wasn't that long ago that segregation, lynching, and other such things were taking place. I am wary of Obama, largely because he has indicated a desire for the government to take more control of the lives of the people. Obama has done nothing significantly good or bad yet, so time will tell, but ambitious politicians can be dangerous, and they worry me. In my opinion G. W. Bush goes down as one of the biggest presidential villians in American history because of the Patriot Act.

[tinka]

Real good family values uuhhh,
Beer drinking out in the back yard of White House in front of cameras showing America just how good they are, chain smoking, no respect for the office they hold. Even if others have done it, you never saw it. He is arrogant.  you've got to be kidding!! His children have been shown how to act "like they are royalty" ever notice how staged!! If they want to act like it then take the blue jeans off and put on a dress and get a little class. They can't help it though as their mother knows no difference. They dress in the public eye in "fad" fashion.  Whats worse is you Obama Idol'ers don't even notice or realize it.

[christian]

George,

Read Tinka last post and tell me what you think? She even aligns the children now.

And while I am at it the person who got his finger bitten off, was against Government Health care, good thing he could go to the hospital and use his medicare, MAN!

[tinka]

What would make a poor person think that a rich person would want to spread the wealth around when getting rich means hording? I can tell you from experience that in the poorer countries the rich make a point to keep the poor, poor.

Now, I do not believe my eyes of such a simple question that answers the whole big debate!! Amazing

2 ANSWERS  THE POOR PERSON KNOWS THE RICH MAN DOES NOT WANT TO SHARE THE WEALTH BY FORCE, SO OBAMA IS GOING TO FORCE IT. AND THAT LEADS TO THE NEXT ANSWER

The answer to all. Is..........CONTROL, CONTROL THE PEOPLE AND CONTROL THE LAND. But this agenda is for the rich only that the poor got sucked out of and they just could not figure it out.

[christian]

Tinka,

Explain to me why drinking wine in a glass is different from drinking beer? Did you know that the queen drinks? OH, I am sorry old time values, she drinks in a dress. Oh, wine and a cigar like they smoke, is a little more refind.

[Murcielago]

Real good family values uuhhh,
Beer drinking out in the back yard of White House in front of cameras showing America just how good they are, chain smoking, no respect for the office they hold. Even if others have done it, you never saw it. He is arrogant.  you've got to be kidding!! His children have been shown how to act "like they are royalty" ever notice how staged!! If they want to act like it then take the blue jeans off and put on a dress and get a little class. They can't help it though as their mother knows no difference. They dress in the public eye in "fad" fashion.  Whats worse is you Obama Idol'ers don't even notice or realize it.

I don't think most people really care if Obama drinks beer and smokes, if a couple of kids wear jeans, and if their mom wears shorts. That makes them normal Americans. "Family values" is a broader term than "Adventist values." The styles worn by the Queen are conservative but nice. When she started wearing those very styles they were trendy and scandalous to some of the aristocracy. Too modern, too fifties. By the Georgian standards held dear to many of the older generations in her earlier years, she was outrageous in her dresses that actually showed her legs. In short, the liberal thoughts and styles of today are the conservative  holdouts of tomorrow. And I have to agree with Christian on the matter of wine. I appreciate the lack of pretentiousness that America brings out in people. On the other hand, there is a modicum of class expected in heads of state, but here in the USA that tends to be only in certain venues. As Christian mentioned I am just stating opinions, but thats what I enjoy about this discussion. We are all doing that.