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[Johann]

This article gives the history of the development of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Who were the main Trinitarians - and anti-Trinitarians in oour history?

http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2009/February/the-trinity.html

[tinka]

It seems this article has been written by Merlin (dburt) or is this coincidence?
I am not really impressed with this article of History because it can be to a lay person that does not study to find answers of this depth for theirselves and venture to go by someone else's theory or doubt of what is for real. I elect to find my own answers with the direction and faith that God would not let you believe a lie in all sincerity. Below are my collected notes in plain ole common sense of understanding and I am very secure and satisfied with believing the common sense facts.

First of all the part we will not know or be permitted to know is the power that God holds in mystery. Being visible and invisible, taking on forms or breath to create.

Trinity means to me that Separate Enitities are essential for God to do His work, in His people, for His people, and by His people and to be with His people. HE created us, Loves us, and of course In all generations in what ever form or way He is with us. It is His power and mystery and not ours to know about how he becomes incarnate other then one part of the Godhead becoming flesh for us to rationalize that there is truly "God".  IF one can take all the answers and facts of Bibical and the messanger that is Inspired for more of a simple understanding for us and finalize the correct theory we would not need people to try to figure out all the human theories of history to confuse or make doubt of this all phenomenal "Great Power of Mystery and Love that comes from Our Creator.

 No Jesus was not created but the separate Initities were the Same as it was with God in what ever way the no "beginning and no end" is our human understanding. That is not what is most important to me.

Also, The Bible I discover separates the work of each by using the correct words in the KJ version of old. Not the new versions as it is not determined to be any different whether you use the term Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost is referred to the doings of the Father in the "over shadowing of Mary"   (example)   

EGW says the (Holy Spirit) comes from Christ after His Returning. The difference is just the work of which Enitity of the Godhead does what.

To make a one glance simple understanding view of the word "trinity" ---
draw a simple triangle.  Now at the top and outside of the triangle write the words
God the Father. (2) at the left hand line outside the triangle draw an arrow to the left corner. Then on the outside of the left triangle corner write "God the Son". (3) on that arrow line write "is not".  (4) now on the bottom line underneath or outside the triangle draw another arrow and again write "is not" and on the right corner outside write "God the Holy Spirit". (5) Now draw and arrow on the right outside of the triangle pointing back to the top "God the Father" then on that line write "Is not" (6) Now for the understanding-- in the very center of the triangle write the word "God" (7) Now draw a line or arrow on the inside of triangle from each corner pointing to the word "God". (8) On each 3 lines pointing to The word God write the word "IS".

That is what Trinity means to me in the Mystery of the Power of God. It opens up great understanding of God and His Working finally when reading old KJV that are openly shown on what Entity does what for His people of creation. Here are some of the notes I collected below that have made the path clear for me and not suggesting all the History of confusing theories whether there is "Trinity" difined in correct understanding.

So there was made a way for all the creation to see, hear and believe the Existence of "God"
What a God of pure love and common sense!!!! I appreciate His great choices of Inspiration to the messangers that complied and had to do no guessing.

GOD THE FATHER
1. First part of the Godhead
2.The Glory
3.The Holy Ghost the Invisible God
4.The invisible things of Him of the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead. PP 111-116
5.   Omnipotent
6.   All Power- Has the power and mystery of being 3 different entities.
7.   Appeared as Melchesidec
8.   No one can look upon God's Glory and live
9.   No beginning and no end.
10.   Law of Love and Righteousness
11.   Called the Father part of the Godhead

JESUS THE SON
1.   Jesus is the second part of Godhead
2.   Jesus is revealed as the fullness of the Godhead
3.   Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead
4.   Jesus is the image of God
5.   Jesus is the outshining of His Glory (outshining) More brilliant or excellent, surpass
6.   Jesus is the word (or voice) God's voice made audible. The voice was God  The voice became flesh. John 1: 1-2
7.   Jesus is God's thought made audible DA 19
8.   Jesus is God's Glory manifested in visible human form (veiled in humanity)1John 1:2
9.   The visible Jesus is mediator between the unapproachable Glory and humanity & angels.
10.   Jesus visible has always been begotten from eternity the same as it was with God.
11.   Jesus the Son does not mean created or incarnate before His birth on earth.
12.   Jesus Commander of heavens and the angels was then called Michael. Dan 10:21
13.   Jesus was Creator of universe, heavens & earth. Godhead was present at creation. John 1:3
14.   Jesus was not Melchisedec.  He is made High Priest after the order of Melchisedec Heb. Chapter 7:17 –6:20 –7:1  Psalms 110:4

Emanuel with us
1.  The meek and lowly Savior is God manifest in the flesh 1 Tim. 3:
1.   I am the One who has sent Me unto you. Ex. 3:14
2.   A body hast Thou prepared Me.  Heb 10:5-
3.   Jesus is the baby incarnate.
4.   God came in His begotten Son to forever live and be with His people. (human form)
5.   Jesus in the visible form says, “I do nothing of myself.  I live only by the Father.  I do not seek my own Glory- John 8-28 chap.6:57 –chap.8:50 chap.-7:18
6.   He is called:    Ever present and helpful Companion
                              The Prince of the House of David
                              The Shield of His people
                              The Sun (light)of Righteousness
                              The merciful High Priest
                              The merciful Savior
                                    The Prince of Peace
                              The Healer
                              King of Kings
                              The Coming King
                              The Everlasting Father
                              The Source of All
 
7.   We behold God in Jesus! (With Us) God gave His Begotten to humanity. ( Love Unspeakable)
8.   I AM –THAT  IAM   John10:11, 6:51, 14:6  Matt.28:18
9.   Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost.  Luke 4:1 Matt. 4:1-11  Mark 1:11 (Entity of Father God)
10.   Jesus was God’s Spirit Philippians 2:5-13
11.   Before sin, The Father Himself spoke through Christ.  Now that Jesus had come in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom8:3) ,He now communicates with humanity in Christ.
HOLY SPIRIT
1.   The Holy Spirit is the 3 rd part of the Godhead
2.   The Holy Spirit is the breath of Spiritual life in the soul.
3.   The Holy Spirit is Omnipotent
4.   The Holy Spirit appeared as a Dove
5.   The Holy Spirit appeared as a Cloud
6.   The Holy Spirit appeared as a Burning Bush
7.   The Holy Spirit appeared as Fire
8.   The Holy Spirit appeared as a Star
9.   The Holy Ghost appeared as Melchesedec (In the entity of the Father God)
10.   The Holy Spirit is Christ’s Representative ( In the entity of the Begotten Son)
11.    The Holy Spirit is the Comforter
12.    The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth
13.    The Holy Spirit is the Greatest Gift from Christ
14.    The Holy Spirit is the beginning of our life eternal
15.    The Holy Spirit Inspires true worship
16.    The Holy Spirit  reveals deep things of God
17.    The Holy Spirit Protects all who seek Him
18.    The Holy Spirit uses us.  We do not use the Holy Spirit.
19.    The Holy Spirit is hindered by unbelief
20.    One can not sin against the Holy Spirit and live.  (Reject)

     Adam will tell you, It is the seed of the woman that shall bruise the serpent's head.  {DA 578.3}
     Ask Abraham, he will tell you, It is "Melchizedek King of Salem," King of Peace. Gen. 14:18.  {DA 578.4}
     Jacob will tell you, He is Shiloh of the tribe of Judah.  {DA 578.5}
     Isaiah will tell you, "Immanuel," "Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isa. 7:14; 9:6.  {DA 578.6}
     Jeremiah will tell you, The Branch of David, "the Lord our Righteousness." Jer. 23:6.  {DA 578.7}
     Daniel will tell you, He is the Messiah.  {DA 579.1}
     Hosea will tell you, He is "the Lord God of hosts; the Lord is His memorial." Hosea 12:5.  {DA 579.2}
     John the Baptist will tell you, He is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.  {DA 579.3}
     The great Jehovah has proclaimed from His throne, "This is My beloved Son." Matt. 3:17.  {DA 579.4}
     We, His disciples, declare, This is Jesus, the Messiah, the Prince of life, the Redeemer of the world.  {DA 579.5}
     And the prince of the powers of darkness acknowledges Him, saying, "I know Thee who Thou art, the Holy One of God." Mark 1:24.  {DA 579.6}

So again I do not put much into articles of this sort to confuse the facts of the Most High Authority!!!

[tinka]

One added thought of my understanding of this (trinity)...This proved to me the understanding of separate entity and in His humanity at that moment when the dark cloud covered Christ when dying on the cross what it actually meant when Jesus cried, Why hast thou forsaken me?

He then at that moment felt he surely was separated from the Father of his divinity or (trinity) left in his humanity. At that moment He felt separated not knowing if divinity would remain and it was agony beyond agony.  With my understanding knowing how this all worked it was more devastating and convincing of the Son of God and His sacrifice for our sin. At one period or moment He only had humanity as the cloud from the Father covered the Divinity and HE felt forsaken!! That mental agony was more then the pain of crucification that most dwell on.

I am not saying I'm correct in perfect order but so far this is how I have gathered the facts and ended with complete satisfaction and not undecided theory unless someone can point step by step in exact sequence better then my ability of which I know there is always better ability and I am ready to listen.. but as usual it has to be the facts.

[Johann]

Divinity is the source of life, so how can divinity die? Was it, therefore, only His humanity that died?

[tinka]

Johann,
Sorry as I am not a good explainer, just reader. My mind I think goes faster then I type. The Divinity did not die but as I recall it was hidden with a dark cloud or cloaked over from the Humanity of Christ right at the end while on the cross. I would have to go back and get it word for word. I believe I might refind it in Desire of Ages. But that is when I knew the complete sacrifice which did not give Jesus the upperhand above all humanity (because of His divinity). He faced it at the end feeling completly isolated and alone although he knew His mission from the start. He was not sure in a moment at the end as the Father made separation at that time. Christ felt the separation and that is the agony I am referring too. That to me made the sacrifice of Jesus even more then as He felt only the Humanity and not the Divinity. It is there beautifully explained better then I can relate at the moment.

Just found a little tid bit here in DA. Yet I am looking for the separation part.
The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.  {DA 753.1}
     Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God.  {DA 753.2}

[Azenilto Brito]

I like to study Divinity in the context of "love", for "God is love" (1 John 4:8).

The SDA Church is relatively a young church, in comparison with some other more traditional denominations. So, it is normal that it took some time for its doctrinal development, with the pioneers refining their ideas until coming to a consensus. To merely quote James White, Uriah Smith and think that they are the ones for us to follow plainly in terms of their understandig, as if this was the pattern, is a big mistake. I don't know of any official statement by the SDA Church at that early stage DENYING the Trinity, just personal opinions of this man, and that man.

Anyway, God is love, and because of that He found ways of identifying with man in the closest way possible, which was accomplished through the Incarnation of the "2nd person"--Michael, or Jesus Christ.

If the Trinity understanding was wrong, any man could come up with an excuse on the Day of Judgment. He would say: "You, God, cannot judge me as unworthy of living in Heaven. You don't know by Your own experience what is the misery we live on this planet. You don't know the pain of physical effort, the hardships of the cold winters and the hot summers. You don't know by Your own experience what is to face the treason of men, the mocking of the crowd, the weight of everybody's failures on You. . . You just stay sitting on Your throne receiving the praise of all the angels and other beings. You just sent a second-class representative to confront what we go through in this life. So, You have no means to judge us with exemption. . ."

No, no. . . There will be no excuses on that day for anyone, for Jesus, was "oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth. . . It pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief". (Isa. 53).

We don't have a rational explanation of everything related to the Divinity. There are plenty of speculation regarding how the Divinity "operates", but we have glimpses of this wonderful idea. For example, in John 14:23 we read: "If a man loves Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him". Other texts emphasize this having God and Christ within the believer, of Jesus present with two or three met in His name, etc. . . . How could that be, since Jesus' place is in the Heavenly Sanctuary doing intercession for sinners, as their Advocate (1 John 2:1)? The only explanation is that this occur through the operation of the Holy Spirit. Thus, we can say that whoever has the Spirit abiding in him is the same as having the Father and the Son.

Consequently, each one of the Persons of the Trinity represents perfectly the others. Having one is having all three. That probably doesn't make "sense" within human logic and reasoning. But that is the point--things pertaining to the Divinity cannot be understood through human reasoning and logic. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned". 1 Cor. 2:14.

[tinka]

The (many, many) examples or stories of the Bible of the WORKINGS of each part of the Godhead is a way of understanding (perfectl) how Christ can live within us (literally) and how that is possible. Christ in us, Christ with us.  Phenonenal!! That is the "Love of God" IF we choose it, except it and cherish it.

The mysteries of this POWER of WORKINGS will never be known and who wants to step us like Lucifer and want to understand that power and all knowledge. The "Love" seems to be the most powerful thing that binds all things. (In my opinion).

As he created all things to give to one another but to man the freedom of choice so to get back a mere drop in the bucket of returned "Love"?? Even God wants Love back in "true form." "Forgive them as they know not what they do".

In no words can I explain His Amazing Love for the sinner and neither can the angels. Other then the fact that He knows Lucifer bound and still wars against His creation of "Love" when He gave (freedom of choice) and now a lesson for the universe on the facts of sin.  He has done the Ultimate to ransom us back.   Our only glimpse of this "Love" is the closer we can get to God and His Spirit dwelling "within us" as he longs for. But the selfishness of man bars the door.

Can anyone now see the Ultimate workings and closeness of the FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT?  ONE CANNOT BE WITHOUT THE OTHER.

Can this explain the earthly marriage, the gift of children, love that binds and then just a thought to throw in. We will not know marriage in heaven as we know it here.
Something must be more wonderful as we gain new powers from the "Gift" (smile, just a thought)

The (example of the) Trinity makes one want to venture into "Heavenly Change".  It is a wonderful and most important study that most feel it is not necessary to understand. This is where you come to....to know God and  "His Love".  and yet our trials question it!  Forgive us!

(Freedom of choice given and created for the freedom of "Love and choice back" to the Creator) as I see it was the Loophole that Lucifer found to create war and the continuing destruction of God's creations.

[Murcielago]

I am a 4th generation SDA and as a small child I remember being taught that the Trinity, in traditional terms, is a Catholic doctrine that we don't follow. One example I was shown is the Adventist Church Hymnal. In this song book the Church had changed the last sentence in the song "Holy, Holy, Holy" from the traditional "God in three persons, blessed Trinity" to "God over all who rules eternity."

[tinka]

George,
I am 5th generation in SDA (of which means nothing if I cannot decide anything as an individual and I never heard anything other then just things we are not supposed to know or talk about or get into controversy about. That did not help me at all!
I decided that I would litterally go over and over and read and read until I found that I would just take a simpleton view or child like understanding instead of making it so hard. At that time it all seemed to then fall into place as simple as could be (of course after I took the hard route. Maybe I am wrong but very satisfied with the understanding Of answer  now in my old age.

First of all I believe we cannot know (I need to use the right word here to get my point across and yet the word does not seem fitting but...) a word we more understand is (Magic) but I like to use the word Power instead or mystery of God's power instead as the Bible calls it.

Next in simple form I decided that visible and invisible played a big part in this power because somehow Lucifer could still use a little of this powere too.
Then the word "made flesh and a body prepared was another clue for the incarnation story.

You see, as the "God of Heaven was called Holy(Ghost) (I took this literally) and not visible to creation and no one could  look upon His Glory, angels or other hosts that were created.  How could they communicate as then it speaks that it all had to be made audible.  A big clue when I read EGW was the word "begotton". She said that Begotten was not the understanding we have but a different understanding. Then it started to open up for me. Of course Bible terms that visible and invisible was from the beginning the "same as the beginning of God. that is in John of the Bible.

I am in complete agreemeant there is Only One God. But in order for all the work of the universe that had to be she explains that Christ cannot be everywhere all at one time in the fullness of the body to everyone at once but the Spirit can. I think if we use the word as EGW uses in her explanation that each is sparate Entity to accomplish all that is needed there must be visible, audible, invisible,and the body is the fullness of the invisible in separate Entity or work of the One Godhead.  IF we just let go in childlike simplicity all of a sudden it came home for me. Can anyone turn into a dove??No. Be invisible no.  If you stop to realize that Lucifer has somewhat of this power that I read was not taken away from him until the end of his final day.

These are the kind of powers that I started realizing and then reading EGW just how that The One and only God can have 3 different Entities to perform all that needed to be done in common sense for this universe. She describes it as separate in personalities. HE speaks and creation is made. These are what I totally agree that there is no use coming to or even asking or talking about His Deity, or the Mysteries of God and EGW states this also in her own words. I do not believe anything in Catholicism except this one point that I think they have it right. "Son Begotten" in (a different sense then we understand) is the visible part or the fullness of God bodily as scripture very simply says.  We or no one can just go there to understand the working of Deity. I take it on faith and believe that God can really breath or speak and the action of creation happened. That is what we cannot know how He does it and as I mentioned in other post Lucifer was very very dissappointed of not being taken into those counsels as he was created and not deity and the invisible God or the visible God or the Holy Ghost was not. We only know they were always there with no beginning and no end. We cannot comprehend this and should not and that was also a problem of Lucifer. He wanted all power too and knowledge.

But God's works through the 3 different Entities (called the Godhead) are what is Phenomenal. Yet he is One God and that is how I understand also the Catholic side as my whole family on fathers side was Catholic. So the word they claim is Trinity. Just like we sometime claim a word of Millennium for the thousand years. It does not bother me to hear the word Trinity as I understand it in this manner. Again I may be totally wrong but I am very comfortable with this. Then when you read in KJV and it speaks of the Holy Ghost it is referring to the Works of the Father part of the Godhead. Then when I read the Holy Spirit I know that it comes from the works of the Comforter that comes from the Spirit of Christ. Then you will sometimes read that it was the Father that spoke through Christ, in the old testament. I guess it might seem complicated but I am older and it finally settled very easy in my mind and I feel comfortable believing only One God and 3 different separate Entities of His Being. Sorry if this sounds complicated and hard to understand but it seems every understandable in my own mind. Here is something to think about. At the Coming, I believe it states that the Son will be on the right hand of God the Father (visible). Now that is a thought!!!!!!  The Trinity Revealed.

[Murcielago]

That could be. I don't know. It is fun to conjecture on the nature of God, but I would never claim to have even the vaguest understanding of such an entity. I figure that any entity powerful and complex enough to create the universe and everything in it is entirely beyond human comprehension. Of course that doesn't mean we can't, or shouldn't, try. It is in our own nature to be curious and try to figure everything out, and thats good.

[tinka]

George,
I am in complete agreement with you. As you say it does give a sense to HOW GREAT GOD IS. But what it has done for me is in this study --is the Wonder of His love poured out unto His creation of the extent He has gone for their benefit. This forms the bond between HUmanity and Deity for the "Love of God". So it proves that many that feel we cannot know the working's of this Magnificient Love are wrong but no we cannot know the Knowledge of Deity ever. I am amazed and totally satisfied. I just wish I could be deserving of this great thing for Him but none of us are. HE just asks for Love back and that we share His Love and with the Holy Spirit working within us to help bring His children Home.

[christined]

In the latest SDA hymnal, page 73, Holy,Holy, Holy, the last phrase is "God in three persons, blessed trinity".  It is easy for me to understand that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate individuals but work together as God.  In the Sabbath school lessons this quarter, I John chapter 1 makes it clear.  I think that Satan gloats with satisfaction when he sees God's people making issues about things that shouldn't be issues.  Just my humble opinion.

[tinka]

Christined,

There is no issue here on this thread. Just conversation. Don't put all your eggs in the basket of depending on all Sabbath School lesson being pure as it can get. It is sometimes written with individual opinions leaning their way. ONly way you can tell is if you read and studied all yourself all books. Now are you suggesting 3 God's?  It appears you are. We were simply discussing all 3 enitites being one God. Satan trembles when people know truth. and none of this is our own opinions but from the bible and the messenger of which we were discussing EGW points and her inspirations of what she was shown in what nature of God we can know about. Not the total "Mystery of God".

[christined]

No, you misinterpreted what I meant.  Guess that I will go back to being a lurker.  I have "thin skin", so will just keep to myself, at least on this thread.

[tinka]

Sorry Christined for misunderstanding,
Don't worry about being thin skin.  Questions and answers by all is how things are sorted out and then try to match it to the Word.

We no more then had this post that I turned on Hope Channel and there were all these young people going through this exact conversation and I was extremely frustrated at how and what they were coming up with when they could have read most of their undecided opinions. They were merely guessing and grabbing at their own opinions. That is when I get frustrated when they have these discussions unprepared with facts and it seems to let you know they have not studied what they are talking about.  So I just switch the channel. There is always non stop learrning of the Scriptures, meaning no end so my interest in learning more and more to elevate ones knowledge is what keeps my attention. Also it makes you feel closer to the Lord. I must say that Ken Cox, Mark F, Doug B. really keep my attention and the books of EGW I feel so close that I can almost tell her personality.

When you read her books it not only gives you more light but also I studied to see what kind of person could write these books and that is how you can tell about the author themself is how they write. I was amazed and could not put her books down once started.

Some things of EGW broke me straight out into laughter or humor on how she presented some of her writings. IF you think about it the angels have some humor too. I burst out laughing as it caught me off guard when stated "some in the room are food for the worms" then EW told some man that he was like a "broken stick" when he abused his pregnant wife obstaining from food. Then the lady that complained and complained to EW about getting pnemonia over and over and should leave her window open as instructed. EW finally said...."So what if you die"? (laugh) guess one would just have to read that in context but it sure struck me funny and I caught a great sense of her personality and just a great all around common sense typical lady. 

I know she also suffered much and that last example is how I feel sometimes when we have had such great counsel with much added finer details that give us more light -then not use it. I have learned a lot just being on the posts.