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Author Topic: Tommy Shelton  (Read 40295 times)

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tinka

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2009, 04:30:43 AM »

In this discussion we need to keep in mind that faith is not a personal achievement. Faith is a gift we receive fro God, and is activateted by our acceptance of this gift.

Does this mean that faith is not innate but comes about, or to express it in Johann’s expression, is activated by some action out side of us that triggers acceptance or rejection of the action and/or the actor? Or, is it existing in the individual but is dormant and not developed or manifest until we encounter Christ and decide for or against Him? Can we categorize faith into a sort that we have for the ordinary things of life and of a type that leads to acceptance or rejection of Christ as Savior?   Can we have faith in the action but not in the actor? Does a lack of faith in the actor negate the action? (Please, folk, even the dull and ignorant have their story. I say this in hope that I may elicit a thoughtful response from someone.)

Fairhaven,
Sometimes I answer in red in this manner because I have laptop and cannot remember all statements and then go back and forth trying for the sentences in continual quotes. I like to read others that way but sometimes I make mistakes and then when you try to fix something you can't when I do it this way. But I would like to comment on some things, not that I am always right but I believe the correct doctrine is most important on how and why Jesus did what he did. Wrong issues can lead to false belief. I did do a double take on JoHanns statement. Not exactly sure how he meant the "gift of faith" meaning. In my understanding of simplicity of Adventism is this. I take the word of "Santification" and realize that one has to have a belief in something or doctrine. Now there can be false Santification or belief. To the best of our ability we can read one way and someone else read another as what I see in the best brought out theory that was just posted here by 3abn defender. I am sure he posted with still unless I am wrong trying to show that faith was not needed for all to be healed. But the scenario was not that at all. That is why the Bible is misinterpeted and also EGW with the lack of each word weighted in its entirety and to previous scenario. But back to the word Santification. If you have a belief or Santification or in easier terms a true undeniable belief and truth that came either by man or Holy Spirit this you will have faith in. The easiest I can explain for simplicity(that I lay down for myself) is next word of Justification. Justification is where I believe is the action word that you do what you believe in. As you can believe in anything and not do it as this is not your desire. Just like Satan believes in Jesus.  Now if you have the correct belief in doctrine and comply -the next word is Salvation. And that is simple enough.  Belief (from Holy Spirit), faith (faith is our will), and Saved (our gift). I do not see it any other way. So if this is just my ignorant understanding, I hope the Lord has not let me believe a lie or I shall perish. It has to come to TS this way also. It only appears so far that he has not come to the second word of the scenario. 
Also, in your quoted texts that is where Jesus is speaking to the Jewish leaders that were condeming Him and also the man's motive was not to put Jesus down for healing him but to spread the good news as was done from town to town and villages to villages where belief spread. They believed He was the Healer. Jesus realized that Satan had taken over all and that was the reason He did what he did to prove that HE WAS DIVINITY. THEY BELIEVED, FAITH CAME AND THEN JESUS RELATED SALVATION IN THE WORDS. "SIN NO MORE"!!


So it would be just too long to go back and do all that quoting again. But if you read word for word and sentence after sentence of explanations and scenarios presented by EGW referring back TO BIBLE every point is answered that has come into question. It points out exactly what Jesus did and why. You cannot just look at the words where it says all, all, etc. with no other understanding of the whole scenario.  The reason is there and I find it  wonderful reasoning. Being that English has always my best subject to read, I admit that I do not write it as best I can for others to understand. and simply at times in a hurry, too bold and brash. I know too many of my faults but try to perfect the things only that I do for others.  But reading the
Word of God is exceedingly serious business to perfect all your ability to get it right. noun by noun and verb by verb as all apply and weave the Golden Thread of truth. The truth and nothing but the truth (smile) (smile).

I ask this because, going back to John 5, the impotent man, singled out by Jesus out of what John describes as a great multitude (vs3), when asked by Jesus, “Wilt thou be made whole?” (vs6),  having no knowledge of who Jesus is, but responding in terms of the knowledge that he has, replies that he can not get into the pool fast enough to be healed (vs7). The man’s response demonstrates faith in the healing power of the water; not in the Christ: of whom, reading the text, there isn’t any indication that he knows anything about. His experience so far gives him certainty that if he can get into the water before anyone else he will be healed. One can describe that as an intrinsic faith in God, I suppose, if he believes that it is God, through the instrumentality of the angel, who is ‘stirring’ the water. So one may say Jesus recognizes that the impotent man has faith in Him, indirectly, as the God who instructs the angel to stir the water. But he still does not recognize Jesus as the healing Messiah or Savior. He can only describe Him as “He that made me whole” (vs11) or, the man who made me well.  He discovers later that the Man is Jesus and reports that fact to the Jews - the enemies of Jesus. I do not mean to make a judgment about his motive.

(By the way, there is no indication in the text that Jesus healed any one else from that multitude. If all these people had been healed, they, like the impotent man would have had to make the ritual presentation of themselves to the priests. Consider how much more of an uproar that would have caused on the Sabbath; this would have been included in John’s report. Yea, I know I’ve opened myself to excoriation by Tinka and others but I call it as I see it.)   

But in contrast, the man born blind to whom Jesus puts the question directly, “Dost thou believe in the Son Of God?” expresses in his answer a ready desire to believe: “Who is he Lord, that I might believe on him?” Once Jesus reveals Himself to him he responds in faith and worship.

Friends, (presumption?) the fact that Jesus healed many of these people does not necessarily mean that before they were healed they had faith in Him as Messiah. For many people faith came about after or as a result of the miracles. As a matter of fact despite these mighty demonstrations of His power the majority did not accept Him as Messiah. Jesus Himself lamented that fact. Remember the purpose of the works (miracles) was to cause them to believe that Jesus was the long expected Messiah. But they would not believe.

                                          John10: 36  Say ye of him, whom the Father has sanctified,
                                                           And sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said,
                                                           I am the Son of God?
                                     

                                                     37   If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
                                     
                                                     38   But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works;
                                                           That ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me,
                                                           And I in Him
.
                                                   
                                                     39   Therefore they sought again  to take him: but he escaped
                                                           Out of their hand.
 

The purpose of the healings and other ‘works’ were to create faith in Christ as Messiah and Savior but the majority did not believe.

Can Jesus heal Tommy? Yes, He can. After all, He is "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever" (Heb.13:8

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them (Heb.7:25)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1Jn1:9).


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Johann

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2009, 03:07:25 PM »

In this discussion we need to keep in mind that faith is not a personal achievement. Faith is a gift we receive fro God, and is activateted by our acceptance of this gift.

Does this mean that faith is not innate but comes about, or to express it in Johann’s expression, is activated by some action out side of us that triggers acceptance or rejection of the action and/or the actor?

Most religions, including also many Christian, have a notion that faith is innate. This is rejected by Seventh-day Adventists, basing this on the teachings of Scripture. Faith comes to us as a gift from God, and is activated when we thank God for this gift and show our appreciation for it.
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Or, is it existing in the individual but is dormant and not developed or manifest until we encounter Christ and decide for or against Him? Can we categorize faith into a sort that we have for the ordinary things of life and of a type that leads to acceptance or rejection of Christ as Savior?  

Scripture teaches us that there is nothing good inherent in man. We are all equal sinners, and are in the dire need of grace which brings faith to us. Our own will is but like a rope of sand and accomplishes nothing for us. Our only hope is in Christ.
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Can we have faith in the action but not in the actor? Does a lack of faith in the actor negate the action? (Please, folk, even the dull and ignorant have their story. I say this in hope that I may elicit a thoughtful response from someone.)


Any act of Christ is personal. The Ten Commandments as well as the teachings of Scripture deal with a personal relationship. No act has any meaning without such a personal relationship. This does not mean that you have to know the name of the person of Christ before He will bring you the first steps of faith, and yet there is no other name. . . But even in ignorance God works on the willing soul to bring him His grace.
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I ask this because, going back to John 5, the impotent man, singled out by Jesus out of what John describes as a great multitude (vs3), when asked by Jesus, “Wilt thou be made whole?” (vs6),  having no knowledge of who Jesus is, but responding in terms of the knowledge that he has, replies that he can not get into the pool fast enough to be healed (vs7). The man’s response demonstrates faith in the healing power of the water; not in the Christ: of whom, reading the text, there isn’t any indication that he knows anything about. His experience so far gives him certainty that if he can get into the water before anyone else he will be healed. One can describe that as an intrinsic faith in God, I suppose, if he believes that it is God, through the instrumentality of the angel, who is ‘stirring’ the water. So one may say Jesus recognizes that the impotent man has faith in Him, indirectly, as the God who instructs the angel to stir the water. But he still does not recognize Jesus as the healing Messiah or Savior. He can only describe Him as “He that made me whole” (vs11) or, the man who made me well.  He discovers later that the Man is Jesus and reports that fact to the Jews - the enemies of Jesus. I do not mean to make a judgment about his motive.

I believe Ellen White refers to this when she said the man could have said,

- Yes, I will stand up and take up my bed if you will heal me.

In stead he acted on the word of Christ, grabbed his bed and discovered he had received the power to do it. Yes, that was the faith Christ had given him. it worked immediately, and yet this was no guarantee the man would be saved. He had the freedom of will to let go of his faith and trust in Christ at any time in the future. And that is just the way it is with us too. We can grab hold of Christ as long as we are surrounded with grace, and we are free to let go again. We do not know how many times we can do this, for there comes a time when it works no more.
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(By the way, there is no indication in the text that Jesus healed any one else from that multitude. If all these people had been healed, they, like the impotent man would have had to make the ritual presentation of themselves to the priests. Consider how much more of an uproar that would have caused on the Sabbath; this would have been included in John’s report. Yea, I know I’ve opened myself to excoriation by Tinka and others but I call it as I see it.)   

There is another instance when Jesus healed ten lepers, and only one returned his thanks to the healer. The others were healed but showed no gratitude. To me this indicates they let go of the grace Jesus had extended to them, so even if they werre healed they did not retain the saving grace and faith. We retain this by showing our gratitude.
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But in contrast, the man born blind to whom Jesus puts the question directly, “Dost thou believe in the Son Of God?” expresses in his answer a ready desire to believe: “Who is he Lord, that I might believe on him?” Once Jesus reveals Himself to him he responds in faith and worship.
AMEN!
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Friends, (presumption?) the fact that Jesus healed many of these people does not necessarily mean that before they were healed they had faith in Him as Messiah. For many people faith came about after or as a result of the miracles. As a matter of fact despite these mighty demonstrations of His power the majority did not accept Him as Messiah. Jesus Himself lamented that fact. Remember the purpose of the works (miracles) was to cause them to believe that Jesus was the long expected Messiah. But they would not believe.

Scripture teaches us that miracles are no proof. Satan is capable of performing miracles as well. We have to look for faith elsewhere.
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                                          John10: 36  Say ye of him, whom the Father has sanctified,
                                                           And sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said,
                                                           I am the Son of God?
                                    

                                                     37   If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
                                    
                                                     38   But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works;
                                                           That ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me,
                                                           And I in Him
.
                                                   
                                                     39   Therefore they sought again  to take him: but he escaped
                                                           Out of their hand.

There is no magic in these texts, nor in any other words of Scripture. Our understanding comes to us as we compare Scripture with Scripture which creates - through the Holy Spirit - a knowledge of Him, in Whom we belive. Justification is achieved as soon as we belive our sins are forgiven. Sanctification comes as we grow in grace and in the knoledge and daily relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Here there is no other Name. . .
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The purpose of the healings and other ‘works’ were to create faith in Christ as Messiah and Savior but the majority did not believe.

Can Jesus heal Tommy? Yes, He can. After all, He is "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever" (Heb.13:8

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them (Heb.7:25)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1Jn1:9).

Wednesday and Thursday last week we visited Elmshaven, my wife and I together with an old friend, who is a Bible Scholar and teacher living in the area. As we went through this home of Ellen White twice, our eyes were often filled with tears as we saw the chair where Ellen wrote a number of her testimonies, we saw her kitchen, her bathroom, her bed where she died, and where she saw visions that were such a benefit to her Church.

Was this sight a magic which ensured our faith? To some people it might seem to be just that, and millions of people crowd the shrines of the world.

Faith is a personal relationship with God through Christ. Ellen White has told us, and emphasized it by quoting Scripture, that Faith is a gift that comes to us as we accept it in appreciation. It is in that connection she tells us that our will power is just like a rope of sand.

To those who would like to experience a deep faith in His saving power I highly recommend you spend at least three weeks in deep study and meditation over her book Steps to Christ.

One reason I am neither quoting her words verbatim nor the words of Scripture, is that there is no magic powers in the words themselves. But they deal with a divine power which must become a personal experience in the relationship with Him which is portrayed by the prohetic messages from God.

Try this, and you will never be the same.
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Pat Williams

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2009, 09:47:10 AM »

Prayer for this man of the cloth turned predator is simply inadequate.

Inadequate?  I don't understand, and don't think I really want to. My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...


And doesn't that sum up the problem in Adventism and at 3ABN???? I don't understand and I don't really want to!!! Says it all in the best summary yet....

Now, for the truth of the matter...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. He did not heal the rich young lawyer that denied his message of healing and eternal life. AND HE WILL NOT HEAL THE IMPENITENT, regardless of how fervently you pray for him. And it is biblically correct that we must call for repentance when open sin is the fruit of the soul....BUT YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND AND DO NOT WANT TO!!!! Therefore, you stand responsible for the impenitent souls that you ignore. And that my dear, is why you are not a Seventh-day Adventist.

Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. There are no cultic icons and no corporate righteousness and prophets have the fruits of the spirit, including being the husband of ONE WIFE. And they definitely do not Blaspheme God and HIS WORD by their lives.

Gailon Arthur Joy
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Gailon Joy,

I have answered your post and shown why the words I posted about Christ healing all were in sync with the lesser light. You have not as yet addressed this. Why?

In addition, I was troubled by the post of mine which you replied to.You stated that prayers (communion with God) on Tommy Shelton's behalf were inadequate. It appeared to me that you were taking God out of the equation and dictating what needed to be done by Tommy before he was worthy of being prayed for, as if he had to merit that favor.

I agree faith is needed, but is it not true it is the one who prays who needs to have belief and faith, unwavering, and asks not according to his own will but the lord's who will receive what he asks for according to the Lord's will and timing?

I acknowledge that if praying with another for their healing it is required that we make known that sin needs to be prayed about and resolved between that person and the Lord, but we are not the ones who are to resolve this or act as the HS or Judge, nor are we called to do more than rebuke sin, if and when we have proof.

Aren't those issues best left between that individual and the Lord who knows their heart and mind and where they are in their walk, or not, with him?

He knows what has already been repented of. He knows what is true or false and does not need us telling him or dictating that to him in prayer. How sad is it if we are promoting or asking for answers based on lies and false accusations?

How does the Lord regard such prayers?

In the inspired word I read.

Jam 5:16      Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Mat 5:44      But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

Do we need to find out if they have repented or have faith before praying for them?

I say NO. I say it is we who pray who need to have repented and have faith. What do you say Mr Joy?

In John 17, what does Christ's example and prayer reveal?, what does his death for all reveal? his death not just for those who were repentant or had faith, but for all who were condemned lost and didn't even know him, for his enemies?

Did the lost sheep come looking for the shepherd in faith? or did the Shepherd go out looking for that lost sheep (depending in faith on his Father) find that sheep, and make himself known and carry and lead that grateful sheep home?

I would suggest to you that the bottom line in the great controversy is God's character of love. His Grace and mercy are freely given, and he who accepts that but does not extend or have that same mercy to others will receive none, by his own choice. That is revealed in Jesus' life and parables, right?





« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 09:51:13 AM by 3ABN_Defender »
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2009, 06:23:23 PM »

He knows what has already been repented of. He knows what is true or false and does not need us telling him or dictating that to him in prayer. How sad is it if we are promoting or asking for answers based on lies and false accusations?

What lies and false accusations? Know of any?
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princessdi

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2009, 10:26:44 PM »

...and exactly how are we righteous?  In and of ourselves?  NOT!  Only seen as righteous through Christ's righteousness.  "ALL of OUR righteouness is as filty rags"(remind to tell you the real meaning of the comparison one day)3ABN Defender is right people!  No prayer to Our Heavenly Father is ever in adequate.  Makes no difference who prayers it, the All Powerful God is on the other end of that prayer.   If we have to be "perfect" in righteouness before we pray, how do folks who are not right and want to do right get through?   We really don't even understand what we are saying.  The Bible says "while we were YET in our sins".  NEWS FLASH!!!   He already knows it all!   AND..........

Since we, mere humans, lack the ability to see into Tommy's heart or the authority to judge it, this thread should have ended at page one or continued with prayers of healing and encouragement for a child of God.......this is even sadder than that left you all made on page one.  Johann posted a simple prayer request, and it was turned into this mess...............jes sad.




You need to read scripture a little more. A righteous man is righteous in all things. IF not, what good are the prayers. You may be  defender of evil until proven innocent of viewed facts. I understand fully when people do not have visibility of truth as I have read in scripture that the Lord lets you believe a lie if not a seeker of truth.  Minds are seared to truth. You are defending what innocent people can see and speaking out on. If there was no evil in the pile this would not have been going on. This is Something like the tea parties going on to fight again for freedom of the biggest money scam.  Do you think for one moment that voters that put in this evil party of socialism to spread the wealth will take back on their vote?? Absolutely not as there is one mind set.  By the way it seems the pirates of Somalia share the same view. If you have followed that amazement. They are going to retaliate now because they did not get their money.(whose money)?? These patterns never ceased to exist including here
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It is the duty of every cultured man or woman to read sympathetically the scriptures of the world.  If we are to respect others' religions as we would have them respect our own, a friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty. - Mohandas K. Gandhi

Fair Havens

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2009, 01:51:36 AM »

Thanks, Johann, for your post.

I am thinking that I shouldn't bother to post this but I think it only courteous to acknowledge your reply. I regret any contribution I may have made to  this ... this mess.

 


Since we, mere humans, lack the ability to see into Tommy's heart or the authority to judge it, this thread should have ended at page one or continued with prayers of healing and encouragement for a child of God.......this is even sadder than that left you all made on page one.  Johann posted a simple prayer request, and it was turned into this mess...............jes sad.






Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.Heb.11:1


Faith is the assurance (the certainty) of things hoped (the expectation and desire combined, say, for something to occur) for, the evidence (the clearness, obviousness) of things not seen.Heb.11:1

This is how I have restated the definition with help from the Amplified Bible to help me to understand it. Granted there are other possible ways to redefine the term but this helps me.

Using this definition we can say that the man at the Pool of Bethesda had the clear and certain expectation that he would be healed if he could only get into the pool before anyone else. He would not have lain there on his pallet all these years if he did not believe that. (Tinka supports this in one of her posts)  His expectation was bolstered by the fact that over long years, thirty-eight to be exact, he had heard the exultation of the fortunate ones who had gone into the pool and had been healed.

Enter Jesus.

Of the multitude described by John who is all around the pool, and who obviously all have the same expectation as the impotent man, Jesus singles him out.  I will not repeat what to me is so obvious about his response to Jesus’ enquiry. Jesus commands and immediately (without pause or delay, is the meaning of this English word) the man is healed. Now I take immediately to mean that the man does not even have a split second to think one way or another: the minute Jesus speaks the man’s infirmity disappears. Another way to say this is, instantly the man was healed.  Says John 5:9:  And Immediately the man was made whole AND took his bed and walked…”

The sequence of the action: man made well, then he takes up his bed.

He does not know who Jesus is.  It is likely, reading the text, he has never heard of Him. He describes Jesus, as the Man, to his inquisitors. Later, when Jesus meets him in the Temple, (and that was no chance encounter) Jesus cautions him: “Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more lest a worse thing come unto thee.”vs14. He returns to Jesus’ antagonists and tells them that it is Jesus who has healed him.  What may we conclude? Jesus told him who He is. There in no record of grateful thanks or of worshipful belief here.  I have contrasted this man’s attitude with the blind man’s response to Jesus in a prior post. The record: “The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.” vs15.  No thank you, Jesus. Nothing is said in this respect. Nada.

The aftermath:  “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.” vs.16

The drama now has now moves to the Temple. Jesus responds to their hostility by taking the opportunity to make some of the most earth shaking revelations about Himself: He reveals that He is the Son of God with all authority from the Father; yea, even equality with the Father; His works are part and parcel of the Father’s works; what He does are what the Father does and has always done; that they will marvel with wonder and astonishment about what works that He will yet do; the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so can He give life; as a matter of fact the time will come when He will raise all the dead to stand before Him in judgment;  that to honor the Son is to honor the Father; to not honor the Son is to not honor the Father; that the person who hears and believes and trusts His word possesses, even now, eternal life and  escapes judgment and condemnation.

On and on He goes to make the most heavenly illuminating statements about Himself. He tells them that the scriptures that they search and inquire into (with the diligence of a Pharisee), for life, testify of Him, and yet they refuse to come to Him for life! And hear this, listen carefully, vs36:”But I have a greater witness than John (the Baptizer): for the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.” Yes, the works, including this one (healing the impotent man) which has brought the angry displeasure of the Jews on Him and, of course the ultimate work, His atonement on the cross “bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.”

Jesus, all knowing, singled out that man for healing so that He could not any more plainly reveal His Deity and Messiahship to all. In reading the Gospel of John I found one other place where Jesus used a healing moment to get His opponents to admit to His Deity. But, of course, they didn’t make the admission.   

I have always thought that I should pray for Tommy. God is all powerful and His ways past finding out.   
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Fair Havens

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2009, 02:01:21 AM »

Thanks, Johann, for your post.

I am thinking that I shouldn't bother to post this but I think it only courteous to acknowledge your reply. I regret any contribution I may have made to  this ... this mess.

 

Since we, mere humans, lack the ability to see into Tommy's heart or the authority to judge it, this thread should have ended at page one or continued with prayers of healing and encouragement for a child of God.......this is even sadder than that left you all made on page one.  Johann posted a simple prayer request, and it was turned into this mess...............jes sad.





Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.Heb.11:1


Faith is the assurance (the certainty) of things hoped (the expectation and desire combined, say, for something to occur) for, the evidence (the clearness, obviousness) of things not seen.Heb.11:1

This is how I have restated the definition with help from the Amplified Bible to help me to understand it. Granted there are other possible ways to redefine the term but this helps me.

Using this definition we can say that the man at the Pool of Bethesda had the clear and certain expectation that he would be healed if he could only get into the pool before anyone else. He would not have lain there on his pallet all these years if he did not believe that. (Tinka supports this in one of her posts)  His expectation was bolstered by the fact that over long years, thirty-eight to be exact, he had heard the exultation of the fortunate ones who had gone into the pool and had been healed.

Enter Jesus.

Of the multitude described by John who is all around the pool, and who obviously all have the same expectation as the impotent man, Jesus singles him out.  I will not repeat what to me is so obvious about his response to Jesus’ enquiry. Jesus commands and immediately (without pause or delay, is the meaning of this English word) the man is healed. Now I take immediately to mean that the man does not even have a split second to think one way or another: the minute Jesus speaks the man’s infirmity disappears. Another way to say this is, instantly the man was healed.  Says John 5:9:  And Immediately the man was made whole AND took his bed and walked…”

The sequence of the action: man made well, then he takes up his bed.

He does not know who Jesus is.  It is likely, reading the text, he has never heard of Him. He describes Jesus, as the Man, to his inquisitors. Later, when Jesus meets him in the Temple, (and that was no chance encounter) Jesus cautions him: “Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more lest a worse thing come unto thee.”vs14. He returns to Jesus’ antagonists and tells them that it is Jesus who has healed him.  What may we conclude? Jesus told him who He is. There in no record of grateful thanks or of worshipful belief here.  I have contrasted this man’s attitude with the blind man’s response to Jesus in a prior post. The record: “The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.” vs15.  No thank you, Jesus. Nothing is said in this respect. Nada.

The aftermath:  “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.” vs.16

The drama now has now moves to the Temple. Jesus responds to their hostility by taking the opportunity to make some of the most earth shaking revelations about Himself: He reveals that He is the Son of God with all authority from the Father; yea, even equality with the Father; His works are part and parcel of the Father’s works; what He does are what the Father does and has always done; that they will marvel with wonder and astonishment about what works that He will yet do; the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so can He give life; as a matter of fact the time will come when He will raise all the dead to stand before Him in judgment;  that to honor the Son is to honor the Father; to not honor the Son is to not honor the Father; that the person who hears and believes and trusts His word possesses, even now, eternal life and  escapes judgment and condemnation.

On and on He goes to make the most heavenly illuminating statements about Himself. He tells them that the scriptures that they search and inquire into (with the diligence of a Pharisee), for life, testify of Him, and yet they refuse to come to Him for life! And hear this, listen carefully, vs36:”But I have a greater witness than John (the Baptizer): for the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.” Yes, the works, including this one (healing the impotent man) which has brought the angry displeasure of the Jews on Him and, of course the ultimate work, His atonement on the cross “bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.”

Jesus, all knowing, singled out that man for healing so that He could not any more plainly reveal His Deity and Messiahship to all. In reading the Gospel of John I found one other place where Jesus used a healing moment to get His opponents to admit to His Deity. But, of course, they didn’t make the admission.   

I have always thought that I should pray for Tommy. God is all powerful and His ways past finding out.   
 :oops:
P.S.
Sorry folks for the double post. Unfamiliar with editing  my post
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2009, 05:01:43 AM »

No prayer to Our Heavenly Father is ever in adequate.  Makes no difference who prayers it, the All Powerful God is on the other end of that prayer.

You are right that it makes no difference who prays it, in the sense that God doesn't care if we are rich or poor, black or white, old or young, sinner or utter fiend.

However, we should still remember the following:

"Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered" (1 Pet.3:7).

A song by Steve and Annie Chapman says something like if we leave a hurt in the heart of our wife, God will not hear our prayers.

"If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me" (Ps. 66:18).

"And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood" (Isa. 1:15).

There may be other verses as well.
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tinka

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2009, 06:34:24 AM »

Johann,
You are exatly right on the gift of faith. I did a double take because of the scenario of application to TS. I have been quite under the weather for about the last month and seem to be coming to. But I also have EGW ESTATE on my own computer and this is what I copied:

What kind of faith is that? Is it to believe simply, or is it a faith of admission? There are many here who have that kind of faith. You believe that Jesus was the Son of God; but do you have a personal faith in regard to your own salvation? Do you believe that Jesus is your Saviour? that He died on Calvary's cross to redeem you? that He has offered you the gift of everlasting life if you believe on Him?  {FW 70.1}

   The apostle then urged upon Timothy the necessity of steadfastness in the faith. "I put thee in remembrance," he wrote, "that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
But Christ as the precious pearl, and our privilege of possessing this heavenly treasure, is the theme on which we most need to dwell. It is the Holy Spirit that reveals to men the preciousness of the goodly pearl. The time of the
                                                                            119
Holy Spirit's power is the time when in a special sense the heavenly gift is sought and found. In Christ's day many heard the gospel, but their minds were darkened by false teaching, and they did not recognize in the humble Teacher of Galilee the Sent of God.                                                                            120

Justification is the part that you accecpt and do. We are both right! We have to except that gift from God, just like all good gifts are from him. This again explains that you must seek and you must find and you must do and obey. The SAVIOR WITH FEW WORDS MEANS SO MUCH! "GO AND SIN NO MORE" WAS SUFFICIENT FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND SALVATION IF THEY COMPLY WITH THEIR NEW FOUND BELIEF OF MIRACLES, HEALING BESTOWED ON THEM.  Faith to me is progressive IF you are willing TO FIND IT. That really was my point. But some of these posts seemingly, brought out the gift of "Salvation" without the "Justification" part.

Other posters came up with the "YE shall know them by their fruit". So far the public's view (of course the seekers of truth and the victims) do not see the fruit peeled and canned to perfection.
                                                                       
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tinka

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2009, 07:28:41 AM »

AND TO YOU PRINCESS DI,

You sound like the theory of going to AA, I'm an alcoholic, I'm an alcoholic, and when your finally free, your still yelling I'm an alcoholic, alcoholic, alcoholic. What happened to your "free at last", "free at last".  What was the good of going if you have your own will?  (What was wrong with going to God instead of men and the AA Just an example of figment of speech or example) you are your own rule maker and chose your own games and still into Star Wars, games that take your time for intertainment for yourself and others. How about a game of Chess there??  Stewardship of time means nothing. lack of study it appears as soon as you post and yet you find time to SS. Confused??  Yes very confusing!! You refuse Belief of what Bob Pickle has posted in truth with Scripture. What actually are you doing here or what is your purpose???

 Most on here are a protector of victims and not the crimes. And yes all are sad when one chooses not the FAITH and REPENTENANCE THAT WILL GIVE SALVATION. But I also have great sadness for what has been done to victims..probably more.  Then there is the law of the land!!!!!!! Here and Eternity.

No one is going to pray TS into Eternity unless His true faith is found on his own acceptance. Every one around him has pointed to him in that direction through the Holy Spirit. Just like in the other post that I copied. It now takes "Forgivness" from God and victims to whom the damage was done. What will keep TS from going to victims?? I am wondering if that might help repair some victims? Even tho it must be a life experience that just does not go away like not overcoming being a sinner (or in other words as example (alcoholic even tho no more drink). Man, like Satan has been the convincer of victim to never be free.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 07:42:12 AM by tinka »
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Pat Williams

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2009, 08:18:20 AM »

AND TO YOU PRINCESS DI,

You sound like the theory of going to AA, I'm an alcoholic, I'm an alcoholic, and when your finally free, your still yelling I'm an alcoholic, alcoholic, alcoholic. What happened to your "free at last", "free at last".  What was the good of going if you have your own will?  (What was wrong with going to God instead of men and the AA Just an example of figment of speech or example) you are your own rule maker and chose your own games and still into Star Wars, games that take your time for intertainment for yourself and others. How about a game of Chess there??  Stewardship of time means nothing. lack of study it appears as soon as you post and yet you find time to SS. Confused??  Yes very confusing!! You refuse Belief of what Bob Pickle has posted in truth with Scripture. What actually are you doing here or what is your purpose???

 Most on here are a protector of victims and not the crimes. And yes all are sad when one chooses not the FAITH and REPENTENANCE THAT WILL GIVE SALVATION. But I also have great sadness for what has been done to victims..probably more.  Then there is the law of the land!!!!!!! Here and Eternity.

No one is going to pray TS into Eternity unless His true faith is found on his own acceptance. Every one around him has pointed to him in that direction through the Holy Spirit. Just like in the other post that I copied. It now takes "Forgivness" from God and victims to whom the damage was done. What will keep TS from going to victims?? I am wondering if that might help repair some victims? Even tho it must be a life experience that just does not go away like not overcoming being a sinner (or in other words as example (alcoholic even tho no more drink). Man, like Satan has been the convincer of victim to never be free.


Tinka, in your pointing the finger and casting stones, you give the impression you are in possession of facts which others, even those involved, accusing, or accused do not have.

Here is what is known.

He has been repeatedly been accused of being a pedophile with victims ranging from 6 in number to over 25.


In the early 80's TS admitted to improper counseling with students at the Church of God school that he both Pastored and was the Principle of. Apologies were issued. One boy told a story to his Mother and Grandfather alleging sexual invitations. They reported this to the Police, the complaint was found to be without merit and no charges were filed.

TS admitted to a improper relationship with Duane Clem in the mid 80's. Mr Clem although  an adult,  was a member of the Church of God TS Pastored. TS offered apologies, and tried to make restition and help get Mr Clem into counseling etc. Mr Clem forgave him and said he did not need any help.

During TS employment at 3abn no children were molested, and no reports were filed alleging that, no complaints were ever made alleging that any wrongdoing on his part had been commited sexually by him to any within the SDA Church or the conference, with the exception of One adult male who claimed TS had propositioned him. His wife claimed he lied. This was investigated and that man withdrew his claims.

Nothing is known about any Victims or allegations since then. Although Mr Pickle on the word of a Church of God Pastor has claimed there are victims. The Church board of the Church of God that TS Pastored in VA, is not aware of any when asked by both TS and others, and has not disciplined TS in regards to anything.

If you or another know of victims whom TS needs to contact, then it would be a good thing for you to contact him and tell him who they are, as he claims he does not know who his accusers are other than the Pastor of the COG, and Pickle and Joy and company, including yourself.

If you or others do not know, then it is wrong to keep demanding repentance and restitution from a man who denies he is guilty without any proof that he is.

More it is inappropriate to pray and ask God to bring this about if it is false for it is testifying falsely about another to the Almighty God himself.

If it is true? well then it needs to be proven, but as far as repentence and restitution goes? God coerces the will of none, and He will not do so just because self appointed judges and condemners ask Him to. Further for individuals to attempt to force TS to confess and make restitution themselves as has been done here is ungodly.

From the very beginning this has reminded me of the Salem witch trials.

Even if it is true and can be proven? The focus has always been one of condemning 3abn, rather than helping any alleged victims. That to me says alot about the motives and intents of those posting about this and doing the accusing.


Edited to remove inappropriate content.  "3ABN Defender" - you will not use this forum to denigrate clergy of another faith no matter how desparately you disagree with him.  I edited this once already and I'm not going to do it again!  You are quite transparent!!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 10:57:31 AM by Snoopy »
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tinka

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2009, 09:20:27 AM »

3abndefender,

If this would be false accusations, I would not know what would be worse. Maybe the extravaganza of funds. I wish so much this would be just a nightmare of facts. First it is not me pointing my finger or throwing the stones. I recall and feel reading the actual letters of accusations the "pointing of fingers" and " the stones". I am just an observer of what I read. This would be wonderful if it was not true. But how in the world can you counteract the rest of the Saga of hundreds of other facts with the whole Saga. My main issue is the money from innocent SDA that honestly gave for the Salvation of others and present the SDA message through nondenominational off chute for  :horse:  feed, rolex's, sports cars, houses, land, book sales brought about by the use of pew money, jets, fuel, and it does not stop there, community for non religious purposes.

Although I do realize that people can wrongly accuse. Has this happened for sure? I felt when more people came forth the reasoning behind them not going any farther to police was because not to be involved at early age with too much embarrassment in the courts. I could realize that as possibility. I am still a seeker of truth and will battle for it. Yes I have answered some of the personal emails of the opposite side. I have answered to get both sides of story with denial and no proof that it did not happen in the whole saga and appreciate very much your input with the finer details. I wish that could be true. But you yourself have stated and TS has admitted to some of this. So that would present the whole package leaning more to truth. It sort of like when a police officer stopped me for speeding years ago when 20. I sort of told Him I was sorry, but it was just a little red. I wish there could be a quick solution and over but not until it seems 100's of issues are resolved. This would never have been anyone's business if the publics money was not used in all manners business and personal. I still appreciate your post. I believe that reasoning out situations with both sides with proof of documents are essential. But very directly and seemingly intentional this does not happen.  I just don't think we all have that much time to get it right. If one quits now and the story or saga is true, all will be held responsible. If not true the responsible part is on the defenders side to prove or disprove the emails and letters in public fashion. What a horrible clink put in the Chain for these last days to be separated.


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Pat Williams

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2009, 09:49:20 AM »


No Tinka. I do not accept this. You are not just an observer of what you have read. You are much more. You are a repeater of what you have read. IE a gossiper and an accuser. You did not bother to confirm or prove whether what you read was true or not before deciding to believe it and repeating it as if it was and in calling for repentance from the one you had so judged, and declaring this righteous.

If it is false, despite claiming you would like it to be, you are just as guilty of lying and misjudging as any other in repeating it and acting on it. And you will be judged as you have judged and that judgment includes every idle word that you speak here.

Bringing up other issues as you are attempting to do doesn't make this one null and void, or your's, mine or another's accountability here any less.

One sin led to this whole great controversy and man being cut off from eternal life and communion with God, true?

One lie = one sin. I think all who love the truth should be very careful to examine all diligently and make sure before repeating anything that it is not a lie they are promoting, don't you?

If it is truth, it can be proven, and the accusers should do so, and face the one they accuse with that evidence.

I would hope that if you have no proof, that you will at the very least stop posting this kinda of thing:
"No one is going to pray TS into Eternity unless His true faith is found on his own acceptance. Every one around him has pointed to him in that direction through the Holy Spirit. Just like in the other post that I copied. It now takes "Forgivness" from God and victims to whom the damage was done."

You do not and cannot know if he has true faith or not Tinka, You do not know if he needs forgiveness from God or victims. His eternal life is not yours to decide. If he is not guilty how could this be the work of the Holy Spirit as you claim everyone on here has done?

It couldn't be. It would be another lie.

Think on these things.



3abndefender,

If this would be false accusations, I would not know what would be worse. Maybe the extravaganza of funds. I wish so much this would be just a nightmare of facts. First it is not me pointing my finger or throwing the stones. I recall and feel reading the actual letters of accusations the "pointing of fingers" and " the stones". I am just an observer of what I read. This would be wonderful if it was not true. But how in the world can you counteract the rest of the Saga of hundreds of other facts with the whole Saga. My main issue is the money from innocent SDA that honestly gave for the Salvation of others and present the SDA message through nondenominational off chute for  :horse:  feed, rolex's, sports cars, houses, land, book sales brought about by the use of pew money, jets, fuel, and it does not stop there, community for non religious purposes.

Although I do realize that people can wrongly accuse. Has this happened for sure? I felt when more people came forth the reasoning behind them not going any farther to police was because not to be involved at early age with too much embarrassment in the courts. I could realize that as possibility. I am still a seeker of truth and will battle for it. Yes I have answered some of the personal emails of the opposite side. I have answered to get both sides of story with denial and no proof that it did not happen in the whole saga and appreciate very much your input with the finer details. I wish that could be true. But you yourself have stated and TS has admitted to some of this. So that would present the whole package leaning more to truth. It sort of like when a police officer stopped me for speeding years ago when 20. I sort of told Him I was sorry, but it was just a little red. I wish there could be a quick solution and over but not until it seems 100's of issues are resolved. This would never have been anyone's business if the publics money was not used in all manners business and personal. I still appreciate your post. I believe that reasoning out situations with both sides with proof of documents are essential. But very directly and seemingly intentional this does not happen.  I just don't think we all have that much time to get it right. If one quits now and the story or saga is true, all will be held responsible. If not true the responsible part is on the defenders side to prove or disprove the emails and letters in public fashion. What a horrible clink put in the Chain for these last days to be separated.



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tinka

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2009, 10:17:13 AM »

3 abn defender,

Your favorite word is IF!! If you can disprove the letters of facts and emails that I have read then PROVE IT! FOR SURE 100% YOU CANNOT COME ON HERE AND SAY --THAT DID NOT HAPPEN! AS THERE ARE MORE WITNESSES THAT SAY IT DID. SO WHAT IF I POST ON HERE WHAT I SAW AS EXTRAVAGANZA WITH MY OWN EYEYS. YOUR HANDLE FITS YOU FINE AS YOU ARE A DEFENDER OF WRONG DOING AS VIEWED AND THAT IS NOT GOSSIP!!!! YOU ARE SCAVENGERS OF FUNDS  INCLUDING OURS AND RELATIVES AND PROTECTORS OF 100'S OF ISSUES THAT IN THE RIGHT SPIRIT WOULD RESOLVE AND YOU JUST CAN'T DO IT. YOUR SPIRIT IS EVIDENT! AS YOU FIGHT TO DISCREDIT ALL MANNER OF FACTS PRESENTED AND TO KEEP TRUTH FROM TRICKLING OUT. YOU CANNOT STOP TRUTH FROM COMING OUT NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AS YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROL WITH THIS EPISODE OF FATE AND NEITHER ARE WE.  ALL INNOCENT VICTIMS HERE ARE VICTIMIZED BY THIEFT  OR CRIME AND HAVE STOOD UP AGAINST IT.   YOU MUST WHOM EVER YOU ARE BE ON THE  :horse: FEED. I reached out timidly for some reasoning and you bit only to define your Spirt of Suppressing truth in all aspects. And this is not repeating or gossip but direct brash fact from visual spending, secretely, hiding, or what ever word following your "IF" scenario.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 10:30:07 AM by tinka »
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Snoopy

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Re: Tommy Shelton
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2009, 10:59:39 AM »

3 abn defender,

Your favorite word is IF!! If you can disprove the letters of facts and emails that I have read then PROVE IT! FOR SURE 100% YOU CANNOT COME ON HERE AND SAY --THAT DID NOT HAPPEN! AS THERE ARE MORE WITNESSES THAT SAY IT DID. SO WHAT IF I POST ON HERE WHAT I SAW AS EXTRAVAGANZA WITH MY OWN EYEYS. YOUR HANDLE FITS YOU FINE AS YOU ARE A DEFENDER OF WRONG DOING AS VIEWED AND THAT IS NOT GOSSIP!!!! YOU ARE SCAVENGERS OF FUNDS  INCLUDING OURS AND RELATIVES AND PROTECTORS OF 100'S OF ISSUES THAT IN THE RIGHT SPIRIT WOULD RESOLVE AND YOU JUST CAN'T DO IT. YOUR SPIRIT IS EVIDENT! AS YOU FIGHT TO DISCREDIT ALL MANNER OF FACTS PRESENTED AND TO KEEP TRUTH FROM TRICKLING OUT. YOU CANNOT STOP TRUTH FROM COMING OUT NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AS YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROL WITH THIS EPISODE OF FATE AND NEITHER ARE WE.  ALL INNOCENT VICTIMS HERE ARE VICTIMIZED BY THIEFT  OR CRIME AND HAVE STOOD UP AGAINST IT.   YOU MUST WHOM EVER YOU ARE BE ON THE  :horse: FEED. I reached out timidly for some reasoning and you bit only to define your Spirt of Suppressing truth in all aspects. And this is not repeating or gossip but direct brash fact from visual spending, secretely, hiding, or what ever word following your "IF" scenario.


Tinka, are you aware that when you type in all caps on the internet it is interpreted as yelling?  Please type in lower case.  Thank you!
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