Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

It doesn't appear that Fairhavens is involved in "sheltonism." I think that is a misunderstanding.

Fairhaven propounds a premise that could lead one to believe that we can be saved in our sins and that is simply not adventism but the practice of "sheltonism". It is not an indictment but merely an attempt to bring clarity to the glaring disparity.

[Fair Havens]

It doesn't appear that Fairhavens is involved in "sheltonism." I think that is a misunderstanding.

Fairhaven propounds a premise that could lead one to believe that we can be saved in our sins and that is simply not adventism but the practice of "sheltonism". It is not an indictment but merely an attempt to bring clarity to the glaring disparity.

Aw,  Gailon Arthur Joy, I propose no such thing as one can be saved in their sins. My point remains that Jesus healed some people before they believed in Him as Messiah or Savior. The man at the Pool, and the blind man whose eyes Jesus pasted with spittle and clay and commanded by Jesus “to go wash in the pool of Siloam”.

After his masterful defense of Jesus before the council, subjecting them to ridicule and scorn, they threw him out of the Temple. The record shows Jesus sought him after his rejection by the Council and said to him:


       
                 John 5 : 35  Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
                             
                             36  He answered and said, Who is he, Lord that
                                  I might believe on  him
                           
                             37  And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast booth seen
                                  Him, and he it is that talketh with thee
                           
                             38  And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him.

I submit that Jesus healed the blind man, unrequested, and without the least suggestion that he had faith in Jesus before he was healed. The guy had the stuff on/in his eyes and he needed to wash it off. Jesus willed to give him sight and sight he got after he washed. However, after he received sight he became a powerful witness and promoter of the man who healed him, and later, in the second encounter with Jesus believed in Him and worshipped Him as Lord.

Consider:

                 Luke 13: 11  And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit
                                   Of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together,
                                   And could in no wise lift up herself.
              
                             12  And when Jesus saw her, he called her unto him, and
                                   said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity
                             
                              13  And he laid hands on her: and immediately she was made
                                   Made straight, and glorified God.

Here again, this woman did not seek healing; did not say to Jesus “Thou Son of David, Have mercy on me”. Jesus saw her in the congregation, Jesus healed her.         

Of course, there are instances in the Gospels where some people exhibited great faith in Jesus, for example, the Centurion and the 'woman of crumbs from the table fame'.

My thesis remains that Jesus healed some people before they had faith in Him.

That much I am CLEAR about.

[tinka]

What a bunch of Malarkey, Did anyone turn on Joyce Meyer yesterday morning and low and behold she talked about that very thing. Even she knows. Just how many years did the man stay at the pool. That is a lot more faith then i would have had. His only complaint is that someone else got in front of him. and he waited and waited his turn. Just what did he expect to happen if he could get near the water? Even if it was the ripples or whatever. He knew something by faith or beckoning of Holy Spirit that he needed to get to the water.  Jesus took over and said Get up and walk. The man could have said get lost I only want to get in the water. I cannot believe people try the working of Jesus. All those years Jesus must have known about Him trying to get to the water. How did he know to get to the water and for what reason? You know I understand the lack of common sense and no reasoning.
The woman also heard, and believed otherwise why would she want to just touch garment. She did not have to be in a crowd where she could barely reach his garment!! It was just her measure of beckoned Holy Spirit if she could just touch his garmet. Now that is faith back in that day.
The thief observed that Jesus was crucified with no guilt. He saw and He believed. and the other had no common sense or what ever you want to call it or care less. What religion are you trying to down here? No wonder
everything is seen Kosher on all aspects of the DS Saga. Unbelievable!! Do these people realize that common sense people can follow the money trail? 

Infirmity means her sickness not her faith or knowledge!
This is worse then committing all the desired sin and then going to confession or be saved in your sins once and for ALL.(so your desires can be on going?) Maybe you will deny believing this but this is what is going on in factual deeds.  We repent because we are sinners and he saves us through faith. and stick to it.  Hmm, my Bible says to not die in your sins!!!  Baptist, Nazarene, Catholic, Hmmm where have I heard that before.  Guess this pain medicine I'm on  from surgery has got me going more then i should. Maybe I should realize that all on here are not SDA. Neither is DS. A user of SDA message for non denominational corruption!!

[Bob Pickle]

Aw,  Gailon Arthur Joy, I propose no such thing as one can be saved in their sins. My point remains that Jesus healed some people before they believed in Him as Messiah or Savior. The man at the Pool, and the blind man whose eyes Jesus pasted with spittle and clay and commanded by Jesus “to go wash in the pool of Siloam”.

Fair Havens, here is what you stated earlier:

Bob Pickle quotes EGW : "Jesus does not ask this sufferer to exercise faith in Him. He simply says, 'Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.' But the man's faith takes hold upon that word. Every nerve and muscle thrills with new life, and healthful action comes to his crippled limbs. Without question he sets his will to obey the command of Christ, and all his muscles respond to his will. Springing to his feet, he finds himself an active man" (DA 202-203).

...

I suggest that at the instant of Jesus' command, quite independent of, and totally without "the man's faith takes hold upon that word" the man was made whole.

Are you putting your personal opinions above what Jesus has testified by His Spirit through the prophet? Or do you believe?

The quote from DA is clear that the man at the pool of Bethesda had faith. It did not say that the man had faith in Christ as the divine Son of God and Savior.

The same point may be made about the blind man. That he would go and wash as he was told to do by Christ suggests that he too had faith in Christ's word, as Naaman had faith in the word of God spoken by Elisha. Whether the blind man knew that Jesus was the Son of God at the time of his healing is irrelevant to the question of whether faith is either generally or always required for healing.

[Murcielago]

That is not neccessarily the case. There is also such a thing a gambling. Many people buy lottery tickets every day gambling that they will win. Some do. Did they have faith? Was that what one them the millions? People gamble on many things.

[Pat Williams]

... My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...

...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. ... Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. ...

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

Medical Ministry (1932), page 28, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Section Two - The Divine Plan in the Medical Missionary Work
Christ to Bring Relief and Healing

I have been instructed that we should lead the sick in our institutions to expect large things because of the faith of the physician in the Great Healer who, in the years of His earthly ministry, went through the towns and villages of the land, and healed all who came to Him. None were turned empty away; He healed them all. Let the sick realize that, although unseen, Christ is present to bring relief and healing.--Letter 82, 1908.

The Desire of Ages (1898), page 241, paragraph 1

Not without one more call to repentance could He give them up. Toward the close of His ministry in Galilee, He again visited the home of His childhood. Since His rejection there, the fame of His preaching and His miracles had filled the land. None now could deny that He possessed more than human power. The people of Nazareth knew that He went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed by Satan. About them were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for He had passed through them, and healed all their sick. The mercy revealed in every act of His life testified to His divine anointing.

Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing p 4

Besides the usual crowd from the Galilean towns, there were great numbers from Judea, and from Jerusalem itself; from Perea, and from the half-heathen population of Decapolis; from Idumea, away to the south of Judea, and from Tyre and Sidon, the Phoenician cities on the shore of the Mediterranean. "Hearing what great things He did," they "came to hear Him, and to be healed of their diseases; and . . . power came forth from Him, and healed them all." Mark 3:8, R.V.; Luke 6:17-19, R.V.

The Watchman, October 3, 1905, paragraph 2
Article Title: This Same Jesus Shall So Come By Mrs. E. G. White

It is "this same Jesus" that is coming again, the one who, when he was on earth, "went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil." The voice of the mighty Healer penetrated the deaf ear. A word, a touch of his hand, opened blind eyes. He rebuked disease and banished fever. His voice reached the ears of the dying, and they arose in health and vigor. In whole villages there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for he had passed through them, and healed all their sick. And while he healed their diseases he taught the people the way of life.

Bearer of Our Afflictions

     That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet,
saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. Matt.
8:17. 

     Christ alone was able to bear the afflictions of the many. "In all
their affliction he was afflicted" (Isa. 63:9). He never bore disease in
His own flesh, but He carried the sickness of others. With tenderest
sympathy He looked upon the suffering ones who pressed about Him. He
groaned in spirit as He saw the work of Satan revealed in all their woe,
and He made every case of need and of sorrow His own. No multiplicity of
numbers distracted Him. No anguish overwhelmed Him. With a power that
never quailed He cast out the evil spirits that possessed mind and body,
while the pain of the sufferers thrilled through His whole being. The
power of love was in all His healing. He identified His interests with
suffering humanity. 

     Christ was health and strength in Himself, and when sufferers were
in His immediate presence, disease was always rebuked. It was for this
reason that He did not go at once to Lazarus. He could not witness his
suffering and not bring him relief. He could not witness disease or
death without combating the power of Satan. The death of Lazarus was
permitted that through his resurrection the last and crowning evidence
might be given to the Jews that Jesus was the Son of God. 

     And in all this conflict with the power of evil there was ever
before Christ the darkened shadow into which He Himself must enter. Ever
before Him was the means by which He must pay the ransom for these
souls.... When He raised Lazarus from the dead He knew that for that
life He must pay the ransom on the cross of Calvary. Every rescue made
was to cause Him the deepest humiliation. He was to taste death for
every man. . . . Of the suffering multitudes brought to Christ it is
said, "He healed them all" (Matt. 12:15). Thus He expressed His love for
the children of men. His miracles were part of His mission. . . . He
knows how to speak the word "Be whole," and when He has healed the
sufferer He says, "Go and sin no more." 

From That I May Know Him - Page 48

Bible Training School, January 1, 1909, paragraph 4
Article Title: The Wonderful Love of Christ Mrs. E. G. White

In describing His earthly mission, Jesus said, "The Lord hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised." This was His work. He went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed by Satan. There were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for He had passed through them, and healed all their sick. His work gave evidence of His divine anointing. Love, mercy, and compassion were displayed in every act of His life. His heart went out in tender sympathy to the children of men. He took man's nature, that He might reach man's wants. The poorest and humblest were not afraid to approach Him. Even little children were attracted to Him. They loved to climb upon His knees, and gaze into that pensive face, benignant with love.

Ellen G. White Estate
The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Two (1877), page 259, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Chapter XX. - The Loaves and Fishes.

He was so pressed upon by the multitude that he went a little apart upon a grassy eminence, where he could be seen and heard by all the people. Here he taught them through the entire day, and healed all the sick and afflicted that were brought to him. Those who had been confused in their belief, and longed for some intelligent doctrine to relieve their uncertainty, found their darkness dispelled by the beams of righteousness from the presence of Christ, and were charmed with the simplicity of the truths he taught.

The Signs of the Times , June 17, 1889, paragraph 9
Article Title: Christ's Comforting Assurance.[SERMON AT WASHINGTON, D. C., JAN. 25, 1889.]-By Mrs. E. G. White.-

When Christ came to the world, he found that Satan had almost everything under his own control. Christ announced his mission at Nazareth. He said, "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to teach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken- hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." This was his work. He went about doing good, and healing all those who were oppressed of the devil. There were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house, for he had passed through them and healed all their sick. His work gave evidence of his divine anointing. He had come to represent his Father to the world; and love, mercy, and compassion were displayed in every act of his life. His heart went out in tender sympathy to the children of men. This was his work in our world, to elevate humanity by combining divinity with humanity. He took man's nature that he might reach man's wants. With his human arm he encircled the race, and with his divine arm he grasped the throne of the Infinite, and united finite man with the infinite God, and earth with Heaven. Here was man, plunged in degradation, sin, and ruin, and Christ was willing to resign all his glory in order to offer to man the cup of salvation. Astonishment filled Heaven to see man's indifference, to see man so lacking in appreciation of the things that would make for his peace.

Every miracle that Christ performed was a sign of His divinity. He was doing the very work that had been foretold of the Messiah; but to the Pharisees these works of mercy were a positive offense.The Jewish leaders looked with heartless indifference on human suffering. In many cases their selfishness and oppression had caused the affliction that Christ relieved. Thus His miracles were to them a reproach.

That which led the Jews to reject the Saviour's work was the highest evidence of His divine character. The greatest significance of His miracles is seen in the fact that they were for the blessing of humanity.

The highest evidence that He came from God is that His life revealed the character of God. He did the works and spoke the words of God. Such a life is the greatest of all miracles.
Desire of Ages.  Page 406

[Fran]

I am no expert at times in figuring out what is what in the Bible.  I have read the Desire of ages many times, but I still am not an expert on why Jesus did what to who.

This I do know;  I am a sinner and Jesus went to the cross to die for my sins.  I nailed the nails into his hands and feet.  My cherished sins cause him pain over and over again as long as I continue in my sins.

I pray for our Father to take my will because I can't manage to give it to Him.  Since this mess all began, I have been praying for all of those involved in the happenings at 3ABN.  I have been praying for the viewers to not be deceived.

I have been praying for Tommy in a special way.  I pray the Holy Spirit will continue to woe him to the Lord for a closer relationship.  I know he has a big sorrowful hurting problem.  I know he knows what is needed.  I pray the Lord will give him the strength and the desire to make those wrongs right.  That is not my job.  It is God's job.  I pray for the Holy Spirit not to leave Tommy, and for Tommy not to grieve the Holy Spirit away.

I pray for his health to continue as long as the Lord needs to fulfill His will in Tommy's life.  I know that is the Lord's will, but I do not know Tommy's heart.  I pray the same prayer for myself, Danny, Brenda, Walt and others.

I am not worried about who Jesus healed, or who he did not heal.  I do not care what it was that healed those that were healed.  I just know that God is a God of love and hears the sincere fervent prayer.  The rest is up to the person and their relationship with God.  I will leave that part with God.  

I will just continue to pray.

[Johann]

I am no expert at times in figuring out what is what in the Bible.  I have read the Desire of ages many times, but I still am not an expert on why Jesus did what to who.

This I do know;  I am a sinner and Jesus went to the cross to die for my sins.  I nailed the nails into his hands and feet.  My cherished sins cause him pain over and over again as long as I continue in my sins.

I pray for our Father to take my will because I can't manage to give it to Him.  Since this mess all began, I have been praying for all of those involved in the happenings at 3ABN.  I have been praying for the viewers to not be deceived.

I have been praying for Tommy in a special way.  I pray the Holy Spirit will continue to woe him to the Lord for a closer relationship.  I know he has a big sorrowful hurting problem.  I know he knows what is needed.  I pray the Lord will give him the strength and the desire to make those wrongs right.  That is not my job.  It is God's job.  I pray for the Holy Spirit not to leave Tommy, and for Tommy not to grieve the Holy Spirit away.

I pray for his health to continue as long as the Lord needs to fulfill His will in Tommy's life.  I know that is the Lord's will, but I do not know Tommy's heart.  I pray the same prayer for myself, Danny, Brenda, Walt and others.

I am not worried about who Jesus healed, or who he did not heal.  I do not care what it was that healed those that were healed.  I just know that God is a God of love and hears the sincere fervent prayer.  The rest is up to the person and their relationship with God.  I will leave that part with God.  

I will just continue to pray.

I  join you in your prayer, Fran 

[Murcielago]

Very good points Fran. Thank you.

[tinka]

... My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...

...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. ... Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. ...

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

Medical Ministry (1932), page 28, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Section Two - The Divine Plan in the Medical Missionary Work
Christ to Bring Relief and Healing

I have been instructed that we should lead the sick in our institutions to expect large things because of the faith of the physician in the Great Healer who, in the years of His earthly ministry, went through the towns and villages of the land, and healed all who came to Him. None were turned empty away; He healed them all. Let the sick realize that, although unseen, Christ is present to bring relief and healing.--Letter 82, 1908.

The Desire of Ages (1898), page 241, paragraph 1

Here are key verbs and nouns. I have been instructed, we should lead the sick
because of the faith of the doctor who is attending the sick that believes in the Great healer and then EGW gives reason how to bring unbelievers to faith like in the day of His earthly ministry. None were turned away (KEY VERB ACTION)BECAUSE THEY CAME TO HIM! ALL THAT CAME TO HIM. THEY HEARD, THEY BELIEVED.


Not without one more call to repentance could He give them up. Toward the close of His ministry in Galilee, He again visited the home of His childhood. Since His rejection there, the fame of His preaching and His miracles had filled the land. None now could deny that He possessed more than human power. The people of Nazareth knew that He went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed by Satan. About them were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for He had passed through them, and healed all their sick. The mercy revealed in every act of His life testified to His divine anointing.

[/color]

Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing p 4

Besides the usual crowd from the Galilean towns, there were great numbers from Judea, and from Jerusalem itself; from Perea, and from the half-heathen population of Decapolis; from Idumea, away to the south of Judea, and from Tyre and Sidon, the Phoenician cities on the shore of the Mediterranean. "Hearing what great things He did," they "came to hear Him, and to be healed of their diseases; and . . . power came forth from Him, and healed them all." Mark 3:8, R.V.; Luke 6:17-19, R.V.

HERE AGAIN WHOLE TOWNS AND GREAT NUMBERS HEARD AND BELIEVED AND SOME WENT SO THEY COULD BELIEVE. THEY KNEW THE DIFFERENCE IN THE POWER OF SATAN AND THE GREAT HEALER

The Watchman, October 3, 1905, paragraph 2
Article Title: This Same Jesus Shall So Come By Mrs. E. G. White

It is "this same Jesus" that is coming again, the one who, when he was on earth, "went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil." The voice of the mighty Healer penetrated the deaf ear. A word, a touch of his hand, opened blind eyes. He rebuked disease and banished fever. His voice reached the ears of the dying, and they arose in health and vigor. In whole villages there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for he had passed through them, and healed all their sick. And while he healed their diseases he taught the people the way of life.

Bearer of Our Afflictions

     That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet,
saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. Matt.
8:17. 

     Christ alone was able to bear the afflictions of the many. "In all
their affliction he was afflicted" (Isa. 63:9). He never bore disease in
His own flesh, but He carried the sickness of others. With tenderest
sympathy He looked upon the suffering ones who pressed about Him. He
groaned in spirit as He saw the work of Satan revealed in all their woe,
and He made every case of need and of sorrow His own. No multiplicity of
numbers distracted Him. No anguish overwhelmed Him. With a power that
never quailed He cast out the evil spirits that possessed mind and body,
while the pain of the sufferers thrilled through His whole being. The
power of love was in all His healing. He identified His interests with
suffering humanity.   THIS IS THE WAY JESUS GAVE THEM BELIEFHERE IS THE SECOND REASON, HE WAS COMBATING THE POWER OF SATAN THAT POSSESSED THEIR MINDS AND BODY. HE WAS SHOWING THE POWER OF LOVE IN ALL HIS HEALING TO ALL THAT CAME.

     Christ was health and strength in Himself, and when sufferers were
in His immediate presence, disease was always rebuked. It was for this
reason that He did not go at once to Lazarus. He could not witness his
suffering and not bring him relief. He could not witness disease or
death without combating the power of Satan. The death of Lazarus was
permitted that through his resurrection the last and crowning evidence
might be given to the Jews that Jesus was the Son of God. 

     And in all this conflict with the power of evil there was ever
before Christ the darkened shadow into which He Himself must enter. Ever
before Him was the means by which He must pay the ransom for these
souls.... When He raised Lazarus from the dead He knew that for that
life He must pay the ransom on the cross of Calvary. Every rescue made
was to cause Him the deepest humiliation. He was to taste death for
every man. . . . Of the suffering multitudes brought to Christ it is
said, "He healed them all" (Matt. 12:15). Thus He expressed His love for
the children of men. His miracles were part of His mission. . . . He
knows how to speak the word "Be whole," and when He has healed the
sufferer He says, "Go and sin no more."   BECAUSE HE GAVE THEM REASON TO HAVE FAITH AND BELIEVE. IT WAS A SIMPLE COMMAND TO THE BELIEVER THAT THEY NOW UNDERSTOOD.

From That I May Know Him - Page 48

Bible Training School, January 1, 1909, paragraph 4
Article Title: The Wonderful Love of Christ Mrs. E. G. White

In describing His earthly mission, Jesus said, "The Lord hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised." This was His work. He went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed by Satan. There were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for He had passed through them, and healed all their sick. His work gave evidence of His divine anointing. Love, mercy, and compassion were displayed in every act of His life. His heart went out in tender sympathy to the children of men. He took man's nature, that He might reach man's wants. The poorest and humblest were not afraid to approach Him. Even little children were attracted to Him. They loved to climb upon His knees, and gaze into that pensive face, benignant with love.

HE DID ALL THIS TO PROVE FOR THEIR BELIEF AND FAITH. HOW ELSE COULD HE MAKE THEM BELIEVE THAT IT WAS GOD WITH THEM??

Ellen G. White Estate
The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Two (1877), page 259, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Chapter XX. - The Loaves and Fishes.

He was so pressed upon by the multitude that he went a little apart upon a grassy eminence, where he could be seen and heard by all the people. Here he taught them through the entire day, and healed all the sick and afflicted that were brought to him. Those who had been confused in their belief, and longed for some intelligent doctrine to relieve their uncertainty, found their darkness dispelled by the beams of righteousness from the presence of Christ, and were charmed with the simplicity of the truths he taught.

[/color]

The Signs of the Times , June 17, 1889, paragraph 9
Article Title: Christ's Comforting Assurance.[SERMON AT WASHINGTON, D. C., JAN. 25, 1889.]-By Mrs. E. G. White.-

When Christ came to the world, he found that Satan had almost everything under his own control. Christ announced his mission at Nazareth. He said, "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to teach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken- hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." This was his work. He went about doing good, and healing all those who were oppressed of the devil. There were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house, for he had passed through them and healed all their sick. His work gave evidence of his divine anointing. He had come to represent his Father to the world; and love, mercy, and compassion were displayed in every act of his life. His heart went out in tender sympathy to the children of men. This was his work in our world, to elevate humanity by combining divinity with humanity. He took man's nature that he might reach man's wants. With his human arm he encircled the race, and with his divine arm he grasped the throne of the Infinite, and united finite man with the infinite God, and earth with Heaven. Here was man, plunged in degradation, sin, and ruin, and Christ was willing to resign all his glory in order to offer to man the cup of salvation. Astonishment filled Heaven to see man's indifference, to see man so lacking in appreciation of the things that would make for his peace.

Every miracle that Christ performed was a sign of His divinity. He was doing the very work that had been foretold of the Messiah; but to the Pharisees these works of mercy were a positive offense.The Jewish leaders looked with heartless indifference on human suffering. In many cases their selfishness and oppression had caused the affliction that Christ relieved. Thus His miracles were to them a reproach. THIS IS HOW JESUS PROVED HIS DIVINITY TO ALL THAT CAME AND BELIEVED.

That which led the Jews to reject the Saviour's work was the highest evidence of His divine character. The greatest significance of His miracles is seen in the fact that they were for the blessing of humanity.

The highest evidence that He came from God is that His life revealed the character of God. He did the works and spoke the words of God. Such a life is the greatest of all miracles.
Desire of Ages.  Page 406

[/color]

THANK YOU FOR BRINGING OUT ALL THESE QUOTES AND CONFIRMING MY BELIEF  AGAIN IN THE CAUSE OF MIRACLES, HEALING, AND FAITH TO ALL THAT CAME AND AND WILL COME IN FUTURE OF FAITH AND BELIEF.  YOU SEE THE JEWISH LEADERS DID NOT COME AND DID NOT BELIEVE. THAT WAS A GREAT STUDY!

[Fran]

Gailon;

I read all your quotes from the "Lesser Light".  I was blessed.  Thank you for sharing those wonderful words!

[GrandmaNettie]

Gailon;

I read all your quotes from the "Lesser Light".  I was blessed.  Thank you for sharing those wonderful words!

Fran, it was 3ABN_Defender who provided the quotes from the "Lesser Light" in Reply #35, not Gailon. 

[Johann]

In this discussion we need to keep in mind that faith is not a personal achievement. Faith is a gift we receive fro God, and is activateted by our acceptance of this gift.

[Fran]

I realized Gailon did not post those quotes when I posted; however, I was going to post to Gailon, but changed my mind and forgot to take his name off the top of the post  .  I was going to agree with Gailon about going back and reading "the rest of the story" and not just parts of the complete message. (See Gailon's post below.)

Instead, I posted what I felt was important to me.  It is not up to me to interpret what God did or did not do, and why.  I believe I need to just let God do His business and forget about what was done for whatever reason.  That was then, but prayer for Tommy is now.  Prayer for his entire family!  They have been so deeply hurt by the actions of Tommy.  Their whole lives have been changed because of something out of their control!

Tommy is well aware of what his actions have done to so many people.  I am sure he knows what is the right thing to do.

When I tried to post my message, a message came up and told me another poster had posted.  I posted anyway, and read all the quotes after I posted my previous post.

Anytime anyone, from either side,  posts from the "Lesser Light", EG White, and especially from the Desire of Ages, I am truly blessed!  Even though I realized why the quotes were posted, I read the quotes and was blessed.  How could I  not be?

This thread is about prayer for Tommy.  I am sure Tommy, Danny , Brenda & Walt are well aware of their wrong doings too.  They know enough about their Bible to know what God requires.  The Holy Spirits job is to lead them to true repentance and to make things right.  Their sins are open and need to be acknowledged.  They must seek restitution to all they have harmed.

This is not my responsibility.  It is the Holy Spirit, Jesus and Father's job.  That does not change no matter how many quotes are made or what anyone thinks.

I still feel we need to pray for Tommy and the others to not grieve the Holy Spirit away.  Please pray for me in the same manner.  None of us know when our time will be gone.  God loves us all and died for us all.  We all, each and everyone of us, no matter whose side we are on, need to stay close to God and not grieve the calling of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

God has already brought to light many things done in the dark.  Much is now common knowledge!  I agree with Gailon, There is more to come.  The Holy Spirit is responsible for what is left to be revealed.  Not me.  This is a serious situation.  Serious events have happened.  It has to stop.  God is faithful and will do His job well.  Others will come forward and make more dark things light.

I just pray we will all hold on to our faith and not loose our eternal life on personal opinions.  All of us are good at talking the talk, but few are willing to walk the walk.  I have failed many times, just as those names mentioned have.

So, yes, the quotes did bless me.  The scripture quotes are a blessing too.  Somewhere someone forgot why we are here.  Tommy has had a scrape with death and the Lord has given him life so far.  What will he choose to do with his extended chance?  That is what I am praying for.  I am thanking The Lord for sparing his life.  I am praying that the Holy Spirit will work to help Tommy make things right before his chances at life are over.

Joy link=topic=1635.msg19706#msg19706 date=1240187620]

Ahem... Did not Jesus heal unasked? Therefore faith is apparently not  present (at least not before healing took place). Consider the man at the pool of Bethesda. Did he particularly express faith in Jesus or in the efficacy of the 'disturbed' water? Yet Jesus healed him even though he didn't ask. I suppose faith in Jesus came after the fact. Consider that Jesus will heal the sinner first and then command "Go and sin no more." He can do the same for Tommy, no?

NO!!! Go back and read the Desire Of Ages on this and then come back with your renewed perspective...and was the Faith in the Ripple of Water or the Spirit the purportedly moved it??? In any event, read the account, particularly the response to the call to "...Take Up thy Bed and walk..." You will clearly be enlightened. You may even be converted....to ADVENTISM, not Sheltonism.

Wanna try again???

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
[/quote]eveal.

Gailon;

I read all your quotes from the "Lesser Light".  I was blessed.  Thank you for sharing those wonderful words!

[Fair Havens]

In this discussion we need to keep in mind that faith is not a personal achievement. Faith is a gift we receive fro God, and is activateted by our acceptance of this gift.

Does this mean that faith is not innate but comes about, or to express it in Johann’s expression, is activated by some action out side of us that triggers acceptance or rejection of the action and/or the actor? Or, is it existing in the individual but is dormant and not developed or manifest until we encounter Christ and decide for or against Him? Can we categorize faith into a sort that we have for the ordinary things of life and of a type that leads to acceptance or rejection of Christ as Savior?   Can we have faith in the action but not in the actor? Does a lack of faith in the actor negate the action? (Please, folk, even the dull and ignorant have their story. I say this in hope that I may elicit a thoughtful response from someone.)

I ask this because, going back to John 5, the impotent man, singled out by Jesus out of what John describes as a great multitude (vs3), when asked by Jesus, “Wilt thou be made whole?” (vs6),  having no knowledge of who Jesus is, but responding in terms of the knowledge that he has, replies that he can not get into the pool fast enough to be healed (vs7). The man’s response demonstrates faith in the healing power of the water; not in the Christ: of whom, reading the text, there isn’t any indication that he knows anything about. His experience so far gives him certainty that if he can get into the water before anyone else he will be healed. One can describe that as an intrinsic faith in God, I suppose, if he believes that it is God, through the instrumentality of the angel, who is ‘stirring’ the water. So one may say Jesus recognizes that the impotent man has faith in Him, indirectly, as the God who instructs the angel to stir the water. But he still does not recognize Jesus as the healing Messiah or Savior. He can only describe Him as “He that made me whole” (vs11) or, the man who made me well.  He discovers later that the Man is Jesus and reports that fact to the Jews - the enemies of Jesus. I do not mean to make a judgment about his motive.

(By the way, there is no indication in the text that Jesus healed any one else from that multitude. If all these people had been healed, they, like the impotent man would have had to make the ritual presentation of themselves to the priests. Consider how much more of an uproar that would have caused on the Sabbath; this would have been included in John’s report. Yea, I know I’ve opened myself to excoriation by Tinka and others but I call it as I see it.)   

But in contrast, the man born blind to whom Jesus puts the question directly, “Dost thou believe in the Son Of God?” expresses in his answer a ready desire to believe: “Who is he Lord, that I might believe on him?” Once Jesus reveals Himself to him he responds in faith and worship.

Friends, (presumption?) the fact that Jesus healed many of these people does not necessarily mean that before they were healed they had faith in Him as Messiah. For many people faith came about after or as a result of the miracles. As a matter of fact despite these mighty demonstrations of His power the majority did not accept Him as Messiah. Jesus Himself lamented that fact. Remember the purpose of the works (miracles) was to cause them to believe that Jesus was the long expected Messiah. But they would not believe.

                                          John10: 36  Say ye of him, whom the Father has sanctified,
                                                           And sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said,
                                                           I am the Son of God?
                                     
                                                     37   If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
                                     
                                                     38   But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works;
                                                           That ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me,
                                                           And I in Him.
                                                   
                                                     39   Therefore they sought again  to take him: but he escaped
                                                           Out of their hand.
 

The purpose of the healings and other ‘works’ were to create faith in Christ as Messiah and Savior but the majority did not believe.

Can Jesus heal Tommy? Yes, He can. After all, He is "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever" (Heb.13:8

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them (Heb.7:25)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1Jn1:9).