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[Bob Pickle]

I had the impression that he was speaking of you.

Are you suggesting that Glenn Dryden's 2003 letter was referring to Duane Clem, who didn't come forward until 2007, four years later? That would be pretty ludicrous.

[Bob Pickle]

Are you also aware that those same board minutes record that they were told by a Lawyer they retained that even if time has passed and the alleged victim is no longer a minor and the statute of limitations have run out, their county requires that allegations be reported to the Department of Social Services, yet nothing has ever been reported?

How do you know it's never been reported?

More importantly, what do you think of Danny's messages that he left? Do you think it is appropriate for a leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist to leave such messages?

[Bob Pickle]

I think you need to understand that Glenn Dryden was not the first one to raise concerns.

Brad Dunning says that Tommy propositioned him around 1982 or 1983, and that he immediately reported it to his mother and grandfather. Dryden didn't come along till a number of years later, and the six Dryden referred to included Dunning, as well as Roger Clem, Greg Houseworth, and three others.

[Stan]

Bob

Since you asked, and I hesitated to respond, until the second time 


I would have to do a lot more research before I commented..  but  I do have to ask..

Which was worse, doing that? OR spreading it all over the 'net?

[Bob Pickle]

I would have to say that Danny threatening Dryden in order to cover up the child molestation allegations, which put kids at risk, and which put 3ABN and the Illinois Conference at extreme risk, was far, far worse.

Danny had an opportunity to come clean before it really went public. He chose not to. Feel free to ask him why he made the choice that he did.

Walt also had opportunity to do the right thing. He too refused. I can't begin to understand his reprehensible negligence in all of this.

If publicizing Danny's cover up of the child molestation allegations helped protect children, and helped protect 3ABN and the Illinois Conference from liability, then it was the right thing to do.

[Fran]

Bob

...  but  I do have to ask..

Which was worse, doing that? OR spreading it all over the 'net?

Please clarify.  What do you mean by "that"?  If "that" is Tommy messing with kids, I find your comparison reprehensible! 

Maybe I misunderstood "that".  I sure do hope so!

[scratsmom]

Bob

Since you asked, and I hesitated to respond, until the second time 


I would have to do a lot more research before I commented..  but  I do have to ask..

Which was worse, doing that? OR spreading it all over the 'net?

OK, I hardly ever say anything here anymore, but this one...

The pastor who told my mom not to say anything publically about my great-grandfather's molestation of me, had the same attitude. The pastor who wouldn't report his own daughter's molestation because he didn't want his church to "look bad" had the same attitude.

Abuse lives and spreads because of just such attitudes. It lives in the dark. It continues because it is so unthinkable that people don't want to believe it happens, and if it does, don't want to hear about it or have it known. Just put it behind us; I am sure they must be sorry; what will the "world" think; it is none of our business; etc.

And it is very common to hear someone who has done something despicable get very upset that their act has been exposed. They are more angry that it was brought to light than that they actually did it. Which brings into question the depth of their "repentance", in my opinion...

 
scratsmom--knowing that what she just said made no difference whatsoever, but I feel better...

[Pat Williams]

Are you also aware that those same board minutes record that they were told by a Lawyer they retained that even if time has passed and the alleged victim is no longer a minor and the statute of limitations have run out, their county requires that allegations be reported to the Department of Social Services, yet nothing has ever been reported?

How do you know it's never been reported?

I know because I know and have talked to the people involved.

More importantly, what do you think of Danny's messages that he left? Do you think it is appropriate for a leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist to leave such messages?

I am not going to argue with you Mr Pickle, the spirit of prophesy is clear we are not to engage in dialog with the enemy. I will say this much and you may take it or leave it.

I think it is inappropriate for you to keep claiming that Mr Shelton was calling as "the leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church" when he did not and was not. The events and allegations you refer to have nothing to do with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They were, and still are, all within the Church of God.

I think his phone call was entirely appropriate. Danny Shelton called as a concerned family member whos brother was being slandered. He called because when Tommy Shelton tried to call and talk to Glen Dryden about it all, Glen Dryden refused to hear him or discuss it. Dryden just kept making allegations to others. Allegations which he did not prove and which Tommy denied. That is hardly a Christian response, or a way for one Church of God Pastor to treat another Church of God Pastor, much less any christian trying to resolve things.

[Pat Williams]

I think you need to understand that Glenn Dryden was not the first one to raise concerns.

Brad Dunning says that Tommy propositioned him around 1982 or 1983, and that he immediately reported it to his mother and grandfather. Dryden didn't come along till a number of years later, and the six Dryden referred to included Dunning, as well as Roger Clem, Greg Houseworth, and three others.

Folks,
You need to understand that it was due to Glen Dryden that Mr Pickle became involved, his posts are always citing Dryden. You also need to understand that Mr Pickle is obsessed with this issue and no more inclined to tell you the truth than Glen Dryden is.

What he doesn't tell you is that he is not talking about current events. He is refering to events from 25 years ago. They are called "recent allegatio0ns" by him as Glen Dryden keeps dragging up "old allegations".

Yes Brad Dunning told his mother and Grandfather that story, what Mr Pickle and Glenn Dryden leave out is that they reported it to the police and it was investigated and the boys claims found without merit, no charges were ever filed.

Greg Houseworth, was also that long ago. He is still fairly local, and in Illinois, and contrary to Dryden's assertions and Mr Pickle's repeating of that, he has made no allegations regarding Mr Shelton and made no statements.


The "other three" are not known, nor are the allegations. Both Dryden and Pickle just expect all to take their word they exist, and that Tommy Shelton is a pedophile.

It is very sad that so many have done just that.

What Mr Pickle and Glen Dryden also do not tell you is that the District Attorney in Illinois  knows all about their allegations and has nothing of merit to proceed with as Dr Thompson, the chairman of the 3ABN board, found out in his own investigation.

[Pat Williams]

I would have to say that Danny threatening Dryden in order to cover up the child molestation allegations, which put kids at risk, and which put 3ABN and the Illinois Conference at extreme risk, was far, far worse.

Danny had an opportunity to come clean before it really went public. He chose not to. Feel free to ask him why he made the choice that he did.

Walt also had opportunity to do the right thing. He too refused. I can't begin to understand his reprehensible negligence in all of this.

If publicizing Danny's cover up of the child molestation allegations helped protect children, and helped protect 3ABN and the Illinois Conference from liability, then it was the right thing to do.

Folks,

One more thing.

No children at 3ABN were ever at risk. There are no alleged child victims from 3ABN or within the Seventh-Day Adventist conferences. There are no allegations.

Mr Pickle's claims that his witch hunt is to protect the Illinois conference is hogwash. His claims that Danny was covering up allegations is equally so.

Even if there were proven cases of child molestation due to 3ABN's employment of Tommy Shelton, the Illinois Conference would never be liable. 3ABN is an independant self supporting ministry.

This is something that he and Mr Joy have always been ignorant of when it comes to 3ABN's Status in relation to the General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists.

The GC, and the NAD have a working policy which defines "denominational" and "supporting" ministries. You are one or the other. You can not be considered both. It is that working policy which defines 3ABN as non denominational, and as a supporting ministry of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. It is the NAD "working policy" handbook that if read by those damning 3ABN for declaring what they did in court about their status as non denominational would have enlightened those individuals, and allowed them to understand that they said exactly what the NAD working policy handbook said supporting ministries are to say in legal issues.

Mr Pickle and Mr Joy have in fact due to being factually challenged and never understanding or refusing to understand how the GC defines ministry status, lied and falsely accused 3ABN regarding this issue over and over, and have led many of you to.

[Bob Pickle]

I know because I know and have talked to the people involved.

So you are saying that you know for a fact that nothing was reported in Virginia?

More importantly, what do you think of Danny's messages that he left? Do you think it is appropriate for a leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist to leave such messages?

I am not going to argue with you Mr Pickle, the spirit of prophesy is clear we are not to engage in dialog with the enemy.

I never said anything about arguing. I asked you a simple question.

I think it is inappropriate for you to keep claiming that Mr Shelton was calling as "the leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church" when he did not and was not.

Please don't misquote me. I never said he called "as" such a leader. We was such a leader, and he called, but I never said he called "as" such a leader.

The events and allegations you refer to have nothing to do with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They were, and still are, all within the Church of God.

You are clearly wrong. Danny was the leader of a Seventh-day Adventist supporting ministry, and he lied and threatened to cover up the child molestation allegations against Tommy. Danny's actions were within the Adventist Church, not the Church of God.

And due to the close ties between 3ABN and the Illinois Conference, Danny's reprehensible, gross negligence put the Illinois Conference at risk, not to mention kids at risk.

I think his phone call was entirely appropriate.

Then you are a sick individual. Do you honestly think that there was nothing wrong with Danny trying to silence concerns about child molestation?

Danny Shelton called as a concerned family member whos brother was being slandered.

Now I will backtrack a little. Since Danny was calling in response to Dryden's letter to Thompson, Danny gave the appearance of calling Dryden as 3ABN president. Correct? Otherwise, he was mixing personal and business matters.

Moreover, if 3ABN paid Riva to write Riva's nasty, despicable letter, then your making this whole thing merely personal is much more difficult.

He called because when Tommy Shelton tried to call and talk to Glen Dryden about it all, Glen Dryden refused to hear him or discuss it. Dryden just kept making allegations to others. Allegations which he did not prove and which Tommy denied.

You're forgetting the history. Tommy did talk to Roger Clem, and Roger told him he wanted Tommy to register as a sex offender. But Tommy said that wasn't going to happen because he thought he had already done whatever he needed to.

I have personally spoken with 7 of Tommy's alleged victims, and the mother of an 8th.

[Pat Williams]

I had the impression that he was speaking of you.

Are you suggesting that Glenn Dryden's 2003 letter was referring to Duane Clem, who didn't come forward until 2007, four years later? That would be pretty ludicrous.

Yes folks that is ludicrous.  Mr Clem's questions were about Danny Shelton's phone call and who he was talking about, not Robert Pickle's twisted spin.


The events I was asking Mr Clem about were almost 25 yrs ago. Tommy did not need a Robert Pickle or a Glen Dryden to try and make things right, he had the Lord. He has long since confessed, repented, apologized, tried to make restitution and undergone counseling. His friends and family (including Danny) know this, they know about Mr Clem, and more importantly God does and He knows the truth of this situation.

I sincerely believe Tommy Shelton was wrong, and I was sincere in asking Mr Clem what he personally needs from Tommy today in order to be able to heal and move on.

[Bob Pickle]

What he doesn't tell you is that he is not talking about current events. He is refering to events from 25 years ago.

Not entirely. The allegations from Dunn Loring are regarding events that happened between about 1995 and 2000, and thus were as recent as 3 years old when Danny left his despicable phone messages.

Yes Brad Dunning told his mother and Grandfather that story, what Mr Pickle and Glenn Dryden leave out is that they reported it to the police and it was investigated and the boys claims found without merit, no charges were ever filed.

How do you know that the allegations were found without merit? How do you know? Did Danny pull any strings?

Greg Houseworth, was also that long ago. He is still fairly local, and in Illinois, and contrary to Dryden's assertions and Mr Pickle's repeating of that, he has made no allegations regarding Mr Shelton and made no statements.

His mother did.

The "other three" are not known, nor are the allegations.

Of course they're known. Anyone involved knows who they are. It's no secret, and never has been.

What Mr Pickle and Glen Dryden also do not tell you is that the District Attorney in Illinois  knows all about their allegations and has nothing of merit to proceed with as Dr Thompson, the chairman of the 3ABN board, found out in his own investigation.

How do you know he found nothing of merit? Because the statute of limitations had run out? Did Danny pull any strings?

[Bob Pickle]

He has long since confessed, repented, apologized, tried to make restitution and undergone counseling.

For what? When?

There are a number of men out there who think Tommy hasn't apologized to them or sought to make any restitution.

[Bob Pickle]

Folks,

One more thing.

No children at 3ABN were ever at risk. There are no alleged child victims from 3ABN or within the Seventh-Day Adventist conferences. There are no allegations.

Call up Risk Management and see if they will agree. Of course they won't.

Allow an alleged pedophile to work with children, and if no one makes any allegations, then no child is at risk? Not a chance.

Mr Pickle's claims that his witch hunt is to protect the Illinois conference is hogwash.

Read the history. That's where it all started.

But I suppose your efforts to whitewash Danny's reprehensible actions means that your user name is a lie. That's not the way to defend 3ABN.

His claims that Danny was covering up allegations is equally so.

How so?

Even if there were proven cases of child molestation due to 3ABN's employment of Tommy Shelton, the Illinois Conference would never be liable. 3ABN is an independant self supporting ministry.

With a church school, and, at the time, a conference academy campus on 3ABN's campus.

Plus, since the IL Conf. president sits on the 3ABN Board, and since Mollie Steenson sits on the conference committee, it would be difficult for the conference to prove that it had no way of knowing that there was an alleged pedophile on 3ABN's premises. So if Tommy molested a student from one of those schools and that case went to court, the conference would be in a very tough spot.

It is the NAD "working policy" handbook that if read by those damning 3ABN for declaring what they did in court about their status as non denominational would have enlightened those individuals, and allowed them to understand that they said exactly what the NAD working policy handbook said supporting ministries are to say in legal issues.

I think a lot of the problem is that you haven't read enough on all of this. "Non-denominational" in common usage does not refer to supporting ministries of the Adventist Church, and I doubt you can produce a NAD policy that mandates the usage of this term.

Further, 3ABN said in court that it preaches a non-denominational message, which is a lie.