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[Pat Williams]

Folks,

Pickle is blinded by his need to condemn find fault and vilify. He has lost all sense of reason and logic here.

One example.
He wants to know if Danny pulled strings with the police and the local DA in Illinois almost 25 years ago in order to cause them to find the allegations without merit?

How would he have done so? Mr Pickle is grasping at straws.Who was Danny 25 years ago? No one. Just a local country boy and carpenter.

I will leave Mr Pickle to continue his stubborn and unreasonable arguments and spew his venom, and Mr Joy to bluster and issue his dire threats, to the pitiful few supporters they have left here.

Most have long since left the building realizing this is not the work God calls any to do.
Most can see that allegations and claims are repetative but the proof is never provided.

So, I too am wiping my feet as peals are just trampled by swine and dogs just turn and rend and so it will always be.

Far too much has been trampled upon and far too many torn apart and thrown under the bus as Mr Pickle and Mr Joy pursue their course. I don't see them stopping or repenting or even pausing for one moment to think.

It's a crying shame.

We are called to spread the good news to a dying world, not to devour and destroy our brethren within the church.

I would appreciate having an Administrator remove my membership here please. This place is pure evil to me and I regret coming here.

Good-bye

[Snoopy]

Folks,

Pickle is blinded by his need to condemn find fault and vilify. He has lost all sense of reason and logic here.

One example.
He wants to know if Danny pulled strings with the police and the local DA in Illinois almost 25 years ago in order to cause them to find the allegations without merit?

How would he have done so? Mr Pickle is grasping at straws.Who was Danny 25 years ago? No one. Just a local country boy and carpenter.

I will leave Mr Pickle to continue his stubborn and unreasonable arguments and spew his venom, and Mr Joy to bluster and issue his dire threats, to the pitiful few supporters they have left here.

Most have long since left the building realizing this is not the work God calls any to do.
Most can see that allegations and claims are repetative but the proof is never provided.

So, I too am wiping my feet as peals are just trampled by swine and dogs just turn and rend and so it will always be.

Far too much has been trampled upon and far too many torn apart and thrown under the bus as Mr Pickle and Mr Joy pursue their course. I don't see them stopping or repenting or even pausing for one moment to think.

It's a crying shame.

We are called to spread the good news to a dying world, not to devour and destroy our brethren within the church.

I would appreciate having an Administrator remove my membership here please. This place is pure evil to me and I regret coming here.

Good-bye

No one forces you to be here Ian, er, I mean 3ABN_Defender.  You have been a member here just over 30 days and you obviously came in here swinging with both fists so its not like you didn't know anything when you signed up here.

We are not in the business of approving and removing members here at the member's whim.  If you don't want to be here then go away and don't let the door hit ya...  Hey, I know of a great smut site that you might enjoy...

[Bob Pickle]

Pickle is blinded by his need to condemn find fault and vilify. He has lost all sense of reason and logic here.

One example.
He wants to know if Danny pulled strings with the police and the local DA in Illinois almost 25 years ago in order to cause them to find the allegations without merit?

I ask that because Tommy's alleged victims have asked that. I distinctly remember one of them thinking that Danny had pulled strings.

How would he have done so?

I'd like to know that too.

Most can see that allegations and claims are repetative but the proof is never provided.

The proof that Danny had the action items, and thus knew that there were recent allegations, and that Danny believed that incidents with minors had actually occurred, has been provided.

We are called to spread the good news to a dying world, not to devour and destroy our brethren within the church.

So was Danny spreading the good news to a dying world when he threatened Glenn Dryden in order to silence his concerns about child molestation, or when he lied to Walt Thompson about the allegations being 30 years old when they were as recent as 3 years old at the time?

I would appreciate having an Administrator remove my membership here please. This place is pure evil to me and I regret coming here.

It is evil to protest against the cover up of child molestation allegations?

You really should have called yourself Danny_Defender, not 3ABN_Defender. You're defending Danny to 3ABN's detriment.

[ex3abnemployee]

Maybe you can shed light on it.

I had the impression that he was speaking of you. You have admitted you had a innapropriate relationship with your Pastor at age 19 or 20, one which he, not you broke off, is that correct?

He was of course absolutely wrong, as he was your Pastor, and he was married and the relationship was homosexual in nature.

It is my understanding he tried to apologize to you and you said that he didn't need to, and that he had never hurt you, is this correct?

Do you still feel the same? If not, in regards to yourself, is there something he needs to still do or offer you to make restitution to you?

It is also my understanding that you are a youth Pastor in a baptist church, and it is your claim that the Pastor of the Church of God who made the accusations regarding sexual molestation of "boys" against Tommy Shelton made the same accusations against you and that you claimed you had to threaten him to get him to be quiet about that. At least that is Bob Pickle's claim in emails he attributes to you on his website. Is this true? Why would he accuse you like that?

In reading one of  Bob Pickle's latest court filing's from his website  he quotes from the Church of God board of trustee meeting held to discuss the allegations Glen Dryden has made concerning Tommy Shelton. The trustees are told in that meeting that they are to regard the allegations of sexual abuse of minors as "hearsay" until or if they receive statements from any so called victims. Are you aware of this?

Are you also aware that those same board minutes record that they were told by a Lawyer they retained that even if time has passed and the alleged victim is no longer a minor and the statute of limitations have run out, their county requires that allegations be reported to the Department of Social Services, yet nothing has ever been reported?

Are you aware that those same board minutes record that their Pastor and Glen Dryden reported that Danny Shelton in communications to them hinted that Glen Dryden refrain from posting further allegations of sexual misconduct against Tommy Shelton or the Shelton family (not 3ABN) would bring a suit for defamation of character?

Considering Glen Dryden's same accusations against yourself and your threats in return, can you in your heart really blame him for doing the same thing?

Your answers here would be helpful.

You won't get any answers from me until you're adult enough to sign your name.

[ex3abnemployee]

No one forces you to be here Ian, er, I mean 3ABN_Defender.  You have been a member here just over 30 days and you obviously came in here swinging with both fists so its not like you didn't know anything when you signed up here.

We are not in the business of approving and removing members here at the member's whim.  If you don't want to be here then go away and don't let the door hit ya...  Hey, I know of a great smut site that you might enjoy...

Actually, 3ABN_Defender sounds a lot like Tommy to me.

[Bob Pickle]

OK, I hardly ever say anything here anymore, but this one...

Thanks so much for saying it. Your posts are always appreciated.

Actually, 3ABN_Defender sounds a lot like Tommy to me.

That wouldn't jive with claims of repentance, would it.

[Nosir Myzing]

Actually, 3ABN_Defender sounds a lot like Tommy to me.

That wouldn't jive with claims of repentance, would it.

How would you know? You can read hearts motives and intent like God?

Duane knows Tommy, as do others. You don't and have never even talked to him. You just blame him for not repenting based on your other accusations which he denies being guilty of.

Wasn't the following (private e-mail) given to you by Duane and isn't it published on your website Pickle? 

 No one exposed him or forced him to say or write this, but it appears to me like he is taking accountability and placing all the blame on himself and had already apologized  and is still apologizing for what he freely confessed and admitted to.

From:      "Tommy Shelton"
To:     "Duane CLem"
Subject:     Re: Hello
Date:     Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:53:09 -0500

Hi Duane,

I received your e-mail a couple of days ago. I guess you sent it longer ago than that, but I am not home several days a week. It sounds like you are doing what makes you the happiest - being involved in Gospel music.

Duane, I have spent the last several years trying to straighten my life out. As you well know, I had a big problem and should have gotten help years ago or got out of the ministry. To be honest, I really didn't know that I needed help then, but of course I know now. At the time, I knew that I loved God and wanted to help people, but my problem always got in the way.

You will remember that before I went to D.C. I apologized to you and told you that I wanted to make a new start and I have been trying to do that ever since. I've been honest with my wife, whom I almost destroyed with what I did.

I have been honest with her that some inappropriate things happened between you and me - all my fault - and I also told her that you resisted every attempt that I ever made. You and I both know that is true. I know now that I took advantage of how much you cared for me, and I am shocked that you will even speak to me.

Because of what I have done to Carol, you and others, it is not good for me or you to try to rekindle a friendship. Please understand, the last thing I want to do is hurt you more. I've hurt you enough for a life time. I'm sure that you have felt that I have abandoned you, and you are right, that was part of my sickness - run when things got hot. For all of this, Duane, I am so sorry.

If it would help you with some of the hurt you have experienced, Carol and I are both willing to sit and talk to you. Although Carol was very hurt at you for several years for continuing to be friends with me when you knew she didn't want us together, she too has been working on finding healing and has forgiven us both. Naturally she could never be comfortable with me having a one on one friendship with any one from the past, she is willing, however, to do what ever she can to help if you may be still carrying some scars from my relationship with you.

Carol may possibly write to you too, just letting you know that we do care what happens to you and if there is anything we can do together to help, or help make things right, we are willing to do. If you need to ask her anything, we share the same e-mail account.

I do thank you for the many years that you were a friend to me. I loved your mother deeply and cared for all of your family. It is unbelievable that I could make such a mess out of everything. I hope you can someday find it in your heart to forgive me - I am really trying to do right.

Tommy

[Bob Pickle]

Nosir,

I stand by what I said. If the misnamed 3ABN_Defender was really Tommy, then the misnamed 3ABN_Defender's comments don't jive with claims that Tommy has repented. Someone who has repented would not have written what the misnamed 3ABN_Defender wrote.

You have underlined above Tommy's (uncorroborated?) claims of previously apologizing to Duane. Can you please quote where Tommy apologized to Brad Dunning, Roger Clem, Greg Houseworth, and the rest?

In http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-63-15.pdf I read, "However, in late 2000 Tommy's own family confronted Tommy regarding concerns related to his adopted son and at least one other minor male child." Know anything about that?

The year 2000 would have only been 3 years before 2003, not 30.

Also, does Tommy in http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf admit that he molested children?

If Tommy has truly repented, I do not see why he would oppose Roger Clem's request that he register as a sex offender.

[Bob Pickle]

Actually, 3ABN_Defender sounds a lot like Tommy to me.

That wouldn't jive with claims of repentance, would it.

How would you know? You can read hearts motives and intent like God?

Nosir,

I stand by what I said. If the misnamed 3ABN_Defender was really Tommy, then the misnamed 3ABN_Defender's comments don't jive with claims that Tommy has repented. Someone who has repented would not have written what the misnamed 3ABN_Defender wrote.

Nosir, you clearly aren't making sense. You asked me how I would know that 3ABN_Defender being Tommy wouldn't jive with claims of repentance, and I answered that question.

In http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf at the bottom of page 2, Tommy says that at Ezra Church of God, "I caused a lot of pain in many people's lives." If Tommy isn't admitting in these words that he molested children, what is he admitting to?

And remember, in the recordings cited above, Danny spoke of the incidents at Ezra as if they had really occurred, and as if the statute of limitations applied to those incidents. Thus, if Danny admitted that they occurred, I would think Tommy should too. Shouldn't he? Especially if he truly repented?




Edited only to remove inappropriate content from quoted post.

[Bob Pickle]

In http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-63-15.pdf I read, "However, in late 2000 Tommy's own family confronted Tommy regarding concerns related to his adopted son and at least one other minor male child." Know anything about that?

The year 2000 would have only been 3 years before 2003, not 30.

Comments anyone?

[Stan]

Looks like we are going to get some more juicy sanctified gossip,  in the name of the Lord of course.

[Bob Pickle]

What do you mean, Stan?

[Stan]

When I first started coming to the Adventist Church, I heard comments like  "did you hear what BLANK said at prayer meeting? the sin she is struggling over" and "so who left who" and "does anyone know what happened between Blank and Blank"... "did you hear what Blank said when he asked Blank to forgive her?"  this was at the Calgary Central Church, and I went outside and vomited.

There are people in the Church Employment, who have sinned, and paid their debt to society (at large) who work for the Church in areas that are neither positions of trust nor positions of privilege.

I believe that sexual offenders should be punished after due process of law, and should not be swept under the rug or hidden, allegations need to be examined by capable people, not by internet gossip and sin sniffers.

3ABN is not a Church, and it is not a Seventh-day Adventist institution, it does not have RMS nor can it.

Are you without spot or blemish? Ever any legal convictions?

[Bob Pickle]

In this case we have people who were responsible for doing something who swept it all under the rug. What do we do then?

3ABN had an official conference academy campus on its premises, as well as a church school. RMS (Risk Management Services) would therefore have to get involved if there were incidents involving students from those schools.

The whole thing was covered up so much that the conference pastor told me that he didn't know anything about it. So you have a conference pastor who is responsible for the church school, and Danny left him in the dark.

So what does one do in a situation like this, Stan? Danny swept it all under the rug, perhaps even using 3ABN money to hire attorney(s) to help him do it. And if you add the 3ABN donor money that paid for the lawsuit, that's an awful lot of money Danny got 3ABN to shell out to cover up Tommy's problem.

So what does one do?

[childoftheking]

When I first started coming to the Adventist Church, I heard comments like  "did you hear what BLANK said at prayer meeting? the sin she is struggling over" and "so who left who" and "does anyone know what happened between Blank and Blank"... "did you hear what Blank said when he asked Blank to forgive her?"  this was at the Calgary Central Church, and I went outside and vomited.

There are people in the Church Employment, who have sinned, and paid their debt to society (at large) who work for the Church in areas that are neither positions of trust nor positions of privilege.

I believe that sexual offenders should be punished after due process of law, and should not be swept under the rug or hidden, allegations need to be examined by capable people, not by internet gossip and sin sniffers.

3ABN is not a Church, and it is not a Seventh-day Adventist institution, it does not have RMS nor can it.

Are you without spot or blemish? Ever any legal convictions?

And when I was converted and joined the Seventh-day Adventist Church from a non Adventist upbringing, I was told just before I went away to Academy not to expect to find perfect Christians there. I did find kids who were examining their faith and values as they were living away from the first time. Kids who rebelled (some at least for a time and some permanently) and kids who settled into their parents' religion and made it their own. Folks, they were human!

Later I married and moved with my husband to a little country church. The resident gossip gave me an ear full about the backgrounds of several of the members. The gossip has since gone to her reward and I have become friends with the lovely people she gossiped about. Hers was malicious gossip. What she said didn't make me think less of them but made me guarded around her because if she talked about them, she would talk about me and my family. All these years later I haven't changed my own mind about their spiritual condition or hers. And I haven't repeated what she said. People probably do not even know that I have heard anything about them. They are human and they are making progress on their walk with Christ. Yes, I have even heard some of them do a little gossiping but it is not malicious. They even gossiped about me for awhile but they were mistaken (hopefully they have got it right by now) and I still love them.

If, however a person accused (even if they were accused falsely) of being sexual predator of any kind were to be around my grandchildren or the children of others or around me, I would want to be aware of it. Not only are their legal aspects but I would not even put anyone in a situation where the person could be accused. For the children's sake (in case the accusations are true) or for the sake of the accused (in case they are not true) people need to be aware and monitor the situation. He can't be accused if you know he did not have opportunity. He can't do the act if he did not have the opportunity. And if there is any chance that the person is an offender then for his sake protect him from temptation.

When only one person accuses another person, you may think the accuser is lying or is biased or is gossiping. But when several independently bear witness to personally experiencing the same sexual advances from the same person, there is much more reason to think that they reporting objectively.