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[Johann]

Over at 3abntalk I find this accusation by bonnie,

The one that did surprise me was Johann. Based solely on his pastoral credentials it never occurred to me that he would lie. The lies he told should have been an embarrassment to all of you. When he could not answer a couple of simple questions as to his presence at the DR's house it could not be denied. It was so painfully obvious you had to deliberately look the other way to not see it. HIs latest was far more minor but showed a pastor willing to lie over the smallest of issues. Then he tries to pass it off as a joke and compounds the first lie by implication.
Johann plays around with the truth as freely as Slippery Bob

I wonder if I missed something? If Bonnie has somewhere found a question I have missed? At least she states this shows that I am a liar. Can any of you help me find out so that this matter can be cleared up? I do not know of any instance where I have said a lie, and if I have it must be straightened out. Something in connection with the Dr.'s house?

Was I supposed to know what was in each nook and corner in his house? I just wonder?

[Bob Pickle]

Johann, maybe you should just ignore her accusations and pray for her.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Johann,

If I ever think you are being untruthful about anything pertaining to the issues of Danny Shelton, Linda Shelton, and 3ABN, I will let you know.

[GrammieT]

Johann,

If I ever think you are being untruthful about anything pertaining to the issues of Danny Shelton, Linda Shelton, and 3ABN, I will let you know.

Perhaps it is time for Bonnie to give her examples of Johann's "lies"!  I, for one, would like to see what and why she sees any statement of Johann's in respect to the relationship of Linda Shelton and Dr. Abrahamsen as lies in any way, shape or form!?   

If Bonnie has been banned from AT could we allow her to come back for this 'expose' of Johann? 

GrammieT

P.S.  Johann, FWIW, I do not have any doubts as to the truthfulness of anything you have said on this issue!

[Daryl Fawcett]

I also want to say that FWIW, I also do not have any doubts as to the truthfulness of anything Johann said on this issue.

[Eduard]

Johann,

If I ever think you are being untruthful about anything pertaining to the issues of Danny Shelton, Linda Shelton, and 3ABN, I will let you know.

Perhaps it is time for Bonnie to give her examples of Johann's "lies"!  I, for one, would like to see what and why she sees any statement of Johann's in respect to the relationship of Linda Shelton and Dr. Abrahamsen as lies in any way, shape or form!?   

If Bonnie has been banned from AT could we allow her to come back for this 'expose' of Johann? 
GrammieT

P.S.  Johann, FWIW, I do not have any doubts as to the truthfulness of anything you have said on this issue!

GrammieT,

In this matter, and numerous other matters on which she commented, bonnie did nothing more than to attack and harass those she did not like. She never supported her statements with any kind of evidence. She is just a rattler, and nothing more. What "evidence" would you expect from a fool?


Eduard

[GrammieT]

Johann,

If I ever think you are being untruthful about anything pertaining to the issues of Danny Shelton, Linda Shelton, and 3ABN, I will let you know.

Perhaps it is time for Bonnie to give her examples of Johann's "lies"!  I, for one, would like to see what and why she sees any statement of Johann's in respect to the relationship of Linda Shelton and Dr. Abrahamsen as lies in any way, shape or form!?   

If Bonnie has been banned from AT could we allow her to come back for this 'expose' of Johann? 
GrammieT

P.S.  Johann, FWIW, I do not have any doubts as to the truthfulness of anything you have said on this issue!

GrammieT,

In this matter, and numerous other matters on which she commented, bonnie did nothing more than to attack and harass those she did not like. She never supported her statements with any kind of evidence. She is just a rattler, and nothing more. What "evidence" would you expect from a fool?
Eduard

Friend Eduard,

I am sorry you have chosen to respond to my post in this way.  While I do not think Bonnie has always conducted herself in a way that would give her a certain credence, I do not consider her a fool.  Misguided, perhaps; and disappointed in the way that others have responded to her specific family issues, I still think we need to give her a place to discuss her viewpoint no matter how we see it.  And I would like to see her reasoning on the issue of Johann's explanations even though I believe her to be wrong in her conclusions.  Truthfully, I have not always been happy with the tone  and handling of the information Bob and Gailon (moreso) have shared with us even though I fully appreciate that the information has proven to be the truth in every instance so far as it has been presented.

Bonnie's family issues are absolutely legitimate and the SDA Church IS sadly lacking in dealing with the many situations where there has been irresponsible behavior on the part of men in positions of authority. I believe that she brought up their family's experience as a comparison to what she sees as happening on the 3ABN front, and I agree with her.  Unfortunately, I do not see a great change coming on this issue in the church no matter how greatly needed it is.  We, as a people, must stand with those who have been damaged by these kinds of incidents to see that the perpretrators are dealt with in a legally responsible manner after which other issues such as forgiveness on the part of those hurt may be kindly and helpfully handled in a loving way.  It is only when we are willing to give understanding support to those whose lives have been upended in a terrible emotional hurricane that we will be seen as true followers of Christ in situations such as this.

GrammieT 

[Johann]

Friend Eduard,

I am sorry you have chosen to respond to my post in this way.  While I do not think Bonnie has always conducted herself in a way that would give her a certain credence, I do not consider her a fool.  Misguided, perhaps; and disappointed in the way that others have responded to her specific family issues, I still think we need to give her a place to discuss her viewpoint no matter how we see it.  And I would like to see her reasoning on the issue of Johann's explanations even though I believe her to be wrong in her conclusions.  Truthfully, I have not always been happy with the tone  and handling of the information Bob and Gailon (moreso) have shared with us even though I fully appreciate that the information has proven to be the truth in every instance so far as it has been presented.

Bonnie's family issues are absolutely legitimate and the SDA Church IS sadly lacking in dealing with the many situations where there has been irresponsible behavior on the part of men in positions of authority. I believe that she brought up their family's experience as a comparison to what she sees as happening on the 3ABN front, and I agree with her.  Unfortunately, I do not see a great change coming on this issue in the church no matter how greatly needed it is.  We, as a people, must stand with those who have been damaged by these kinds of incidents to see that the perpretrators are dealt with in a legally responsible manner after which other issues such as forgiveness on the part of those hurt may be kindly and helpfully handled in a loving way.  It is only when we are willing to give understanding support to those whose lives have been upended in a terrible emotional hurricane that we will be seen as true followers of Christ in situations such as this.

GrammieT 

Thank you, GrammieT,

I'd really like to think what you say is reasonable and I'd suggest we consider it seriously, even in connection with some loggerheads among us. So keep waggling your tail.

Johann

PS I should add that I had no particular loggerhead in mind.

[Bob Pickle]

GrammieT,

While I think bonnie should be free to give her viewpoint, I also think that she should not make wild accusations without proof or evidence.

For example, I believe she has made statements about my lack of involvement regarding her family's case, even though it happened in my conference. Problem is, did it? What was my conference at the time the incidents occurred? What was my conference when the case was originally filed? Did I even know about the case? Had I heard about it at all?

She has been too prone to attack anybody and everybody. Complimenting her from time to time doesn't seem to temper her antagonism.

[Daryl Fawcett]

I would like to go a step further by saying that nobody should make wild accusations without proof or evidence.

[GrammieT]

I would like to go a step further by saying that nobody should make wild accusations without proof or evidence.
[/quote



Daryl and others, I agree with you.  It goes without saying that making accusatory statements without corroborating facts does nothing for one's cause except damage it. 

Bob, not knowing the extent nor time frame of Bonnie's family's trouble nor your time in that conference or your employment position there, I would have no way of knowing whether you should have stepped up to the plate in their defense or not except, perhaps, to support the proper ethics of the situation and that would not have needed your direct involvement in the incident itself.  But if you were in a position to render support of them and you did nothing to see that the wrongs done by that minister in his official capacity were righted insofar as your position could have helped, then I would have to agree that maybe she has a point.  Sometimes, and please understand I am not accusing you of any such neglect per se, we all have a tendency to excuse ourselves from involvement in 'dicey' situations when just such help could have given the right support to the proper outcome.  If I understand her situation at all, it seems that that minister should have been stripped of his credentials and taken out of circulation by the denomination in any capacity whatsoever and that was not done because of 'political expediency' of one kind or another.  I'm sorry, but that is just wrong in my thinking.

GrammieT

[Bob Pickle]

At http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/archive/supct/0208/c101278.htm you can read the MN Supreme Court opinion on the Odenthal case. According to it, the incidents occurred from around 1997 to 1999. I wasn't in Minnesota at that time, have never been a conference employee here, and now live maybe 250 miles away from there. Folks across the line into Wisconsin live a lot closer than I do. It is unrealistic and wrong for bonnie to fault me for not being involved in her son's case.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Over at 3abntalk I find this accusation by bonnie,

The one that did surprise me was Johann. Based solely on his pastoral credentials it never occurred to me that he would lie. The lies he told should have been an embarrassment to all of you. When he could not answer a couple of simple questions as to his presence at the DR's house it could not be denied. It was so painfully obvious you had to deliberately look the other way to not see it. HIs latest was far more minor but showed a pastor willing to lie over the smallest of issues. Then he tries to pass it off as a joke and compounds the first lie by implication.
Johann plays around with the truth as freely as Slippery Bob

I wonder if I missed something? If Bonnie has somewhere found a question I have missed? At least she states this shows that I am a liar. Can any of you help me find out so that this matter can be cleared up? I do not know of any instance where I have said a lie, and if I have it must be straightened out. Something in connection with the Dr.'s house?

Was I supposed to know what was in each nook and corner in his house? I just wonder?

I would not waste my time taking anything Bonnie says personally as in Bonnie's paranoid world EVERYONE ARE LIARS,
particularly anyone that would DARE TAKE HER TO TASK OR QUESTION HER PERCEPTIONS OF THE WORLD ACCORDING TO BONNIE.

I personally enjoyed watching her and Grandma Nettie wage they PUNIC WARS in the name of christianity and christian love...and knowing that both could be manipulated with the slightest twist of psychological warfare...yes it is true that I rather miss them both as they were excellent sparring partners...you could argue the value of a penny with either one and turn it into an all out conflict worthy of another complaint by one wuss or the other. And Grandma was such a great source of valuable intelligence from the other side that she became critical to the warfare on several occasions...we owe her much as we developed our strategy and tactics that she so verbally assaulted on a regular basis...but we love her anyway!!! Grandma was clearly the Mahta Hari of 3ABN vs JOY...too bad Mahta Hari had to face a firing squad!!!

In any event, let the inferno rage as it will eventually burn itself out!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy

[Daryl Fawcett]

Thank you Bob for that factual and respectful response.

At http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/archive/supct/0208/c101278.htm you can read the MN Supreme Court opinion on the Odenthal case. According to it, the incidents occurred from around 1997 to 1999. I wasn't in Minnesota at that time, have never been a conference employee here, and now live maybe 250 miles away from there. Folks across the line into Wisconsin live a lot closer than I do. It is unrealistic and wrong for bonnie to fault me for not being involved in her son's case.

[GrammieT]

Thank you Bob for that factual and respectful response.

At http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/archive/supct/0208/c101278.htm you can read the MN Supreme Court opinion on the Odenthal case. According to it, the incidents occurred from around 1997 to 1999. I wasn't in Minnesota at that time, have never been a conference employee here, and now live maybe 250 miles away from there. Folks across the line into Wisconsin live a lot closer than I do. It is unrealistic and wrong for bonnie to fault me for not being involved in her son's case.

Dear Friends;   

Thank you all for your helpful and clarifying responses to my earlier posts.  I am hopeful that we can all begin to be more thoughtful in our responses to this situation as a whole and will cooperate to find and implement the correct solutions to our questions insofar as it is in our ability regarding the disposition of this 3ABN debacle. Changes are definitely needed there and I am fully confident that our God will work them out to His satisfaction and in His time and will use those individuals as He has chosen to do them. 

I truly believe that we are all desirous of finding a solution in which the worldwide ministry of 3ABN as it has developed can now be used for the Glory of God and the spreading of the complete Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Word of His Power.

Sincerely,  GrammieT