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[J.R. Layman]

Uh?  Bob what's this all about, my "diatribes?"

My apologies, J.R. I was reacting to your claim that Chrissie was Claudia, and maybe the way that post wherever it was came across. In this ongoing saga it is difficult to know who is who and what side this one is on or that one is on. My apologies.

Would you like me to edit that?

You've just justified my requirement as to why every member of a forum should be required at the least, to provide bonafieds as to their identity!  On Atomorrow.com.......if you fake your name, or don't identify yourself....your HISTORY!

I'd much rather reply to Bob Pickle....then to some guy who says his name is "Jake!"  Bob Pickle is an identity I can focus on....whom I can know his situation and positions on various internet sites. he might take....Likewise, you can immediately identify "J.R. Layman" anywhere on the net

[Sister]

Gregory,

First, let me say that I agree that your well-reasoned post was definitely unmoot and was presented in a most respectful and dignified manner, very representative of the personality and character you have exhibited from the beginning of the public discussion of this saga.  Thanks for your continued gentle and principled input.

In the case of Danny Shelton, was he actually elected to be an "Honorary Elder" or an "Elder"?

Daryl, 

I have avoided much comment on your forum because I have not felt it was a good fit for my personal opinions and perspective.  I am happy to say that I can freely answer your query without the need to add personal comment or opinion on the matter because, in this particular story, not only do we have the observations of Sister, who says she was a witness we also have the observations of appletree, who also says he was a witness!  You might find enlightenment by weighing the input from both sides.  Up just a bit here, sister claimed

Danny Shelton was not elected to be an "Honorary Elder". There were no honorary positions in the Thompsonville SDA church...

Not so very long ago, appletree made the following statement on BlackSDA.com:

...A. DS said he couldn't be an active Elder and would rather not hold that office.
B. You say that he left WF church because he couldn't control it....If he wanted to control the church why would he offer to turn down the role of Elder? Why would he say upfront, that he wouldn't be able to come to most board meetings. (The lack of presence at board meetings was one of your main points in your little story) So, which is it? You can't have it both ways. You can't control something if you aren't there.
C. Since DS didn't want the Elder role I fail to find what controversy that you have painted. DS agreed with Mr. F. that he shouldn't have that office. But, nowhere in your story is that mentioned. Did Mr. F not mention it to you or did you accidentally on purpose leave it out as you usually do?
Again, I say, Where's the fight. DS agreed with Mr. F and caused no trouble about F's suggestion that he not be made an Elder. The pastor, Elders and the church ultimately disagreed. So...we are faulting Danny on this...how?

Here's appletree offers an idea to add to the "honorary elder" mix:

...Also amusing was the statement that Danny didn't come until after SS. The truth is Danny was rarely present at the T'vill church because of his extensive travel schedule on the weekends. On the rare weekends he was home, I certainly wouldn't blame him a bit if he did wait until the worship hour to come. He was wore out. Danny was responsible for building that church so maybe the board felt like he should be an honorary elder or something to that affect because, they knew, with his schedule he could not be an active elder. That would have been an impossibility.

GrandmaNettie,

I stand by what I said about there being no “honorary elders” voted in at the Thompsonville church at the time in question. I know, I was there, I voted on the issue at the time, because I was a member of the Thompsonville church. No where in Appletree’s “yarns” does he ever make the statement that he was a member of the Thompsonville church or present at the time these events took place.

Item C., is an outright lie. I checked again with Pastor Fiscalini and he confirmed that Danny never told him that he did not want the role of an Elder. If that were the case, why was Danny so angry at Fiscalini for opposing his election?

Jeanette, we both know where your sympathies lie in this situation. First at BSDA and now here at Advent Talk. You are attempting to nullify the verity of my testimony regarding the actual character of Danny Shelton, as portrayed through vignettes that give insight into how Danny operates behind the scenes at 3ABN. It is understandable why both Appletree and you, in your supporting role of him, have fought so vehemently in an attempt to discredit the facts of this episode of “An Unauthorized History of 3ABN”. The larger question here is not one of “Honorary Elders” in the SDA church, but the question of an individual having so much control of a local church that it becomes impossible for the Pastor, church board and the congregation in question to discipline said member when his actions run contrary to the word of God. This is the essence of “Nobody Owns the Church”.

At the time these events took place the situation was as follows: the pastor was chosen by Danny Shelton and hired by the Illinois Conference in accordance with Danny wishes,  half the pastor’s salary was paid by 3ABN, the pastor and his family lived in 3ABN housing rent free, the pastor and his wife both appeared on 3ABN programming (she had her own program), in addition to his work at the Thompsonville church and 3ABN, the pastor had his own “independent” ministry which was headquartered in 3ABN facilities. At the very least there is a definite appearance of conflict of interest here. Has the situation changed with the later hiring of another Pastor? Apparently, not. Similar conflicts exist with John Lomacang. Why was Danny not disciplined for an unbiblical divorce and remarriage by the Thompsonville SDA church? Who was willing to stand up and oppose Danny Shelton? Not the pastor, elders or church board. Obviously, no one. Why?

Sister

[Daryl Fawcett]

The only editing I have basically done in anybody's posts was to correct the formatting error in the quoted sections of posts where it is hard to identify the quote from the person's new post.

I do NOT normally go around correcting anybody's spelling errors.

As far as the public discussing Admin/Mod actions goes, there will be a new forum rule added against that.

If you have a complaint against any Admin/Mod actions, use the PM feature.

[GrandmaNettie]

Gregory,

First, let me say that I agree that your well-reasoned post was definitely unmoot and was presented in a most respectful and dignified manner, very representative of the personality and character you have exhibited from the beginning of the public discussion of this saga.  Thanks for your continued gentle and principled input.

In the case of Danny Shelton, was he actually elected to be an "Honorary Elder" or an "Elder"?

Daryl, 

I have avoided much comment on your forum because I have not felt it was a good fit for my personal opinions and perspective.  I am happy to say that I can freely answer your query without the need to add personal comment or opinion on the matter because, in this particular story, not only do we have the observations of Sister, who says she was a witness we also have the observations of appletree, who also says he was a witness!  You might find enlightenment by weighing the input from both sides.  Up just a bit here, sister claimed

Danny Shelton was not elected to be an "Honorary Elder". There were no honorary positions in the Thompsonville SDA church...

Not so very long ago, appletree made the following statement on BlackSDA.com:

...A. DS said he couldn't be an active Elder and would rather not hold that office.
B. You say that he left WF church because he couldn't control it....If he wanted to control the church why would he offer to turn down the role of Elder? Why would he say upfront, that he wouldn't be able to come to most board meetings. (The lack of presence at board meetings was one of your main points in your little story) So, which is it? You can't have it both ways. You can't control something if you aren't there.
C. Since DS didn't want the Elder role I fail to find what controversy that you have painted. DS agreed with Mr. F. that he shouldn't have that office. But, nowhere in your story is that mentioned. Did Mr. F not mention it to you or did you accidentally on purpose leave it out as you usually do?
Again, I say, Where's the fight. DS agreed with Mr. F and caused no trouble about F's suggestion that he not be made an Elder. The pastor, Elders and the church ultimately disagreed. So...we are faulting Danny on this...how?

Here's appletree offers an idea to add to the "honorary elder" mix:

...Also amusing was the statement that Danny didn't come until after SS. The truth is Danny was rarely present at the T'vill church because of his extensive travel schedule on the weekends. On the rare weekends he was home, I certainly wouldn't blame him a bit if he did wait until the worship hour to come. He was wore out. Danny was responsible for building that church so maybe the board felt like he should be an honorary elder or something to that affect because, they knew, with his schedule he could not be an active elder. That would have been an impossibility.

GrandmaNettie,

I stand by what I said about there being no “honorary elders” voted in at the Thompsonville church at the time in question. I know, I was there, I voted on the issue at the time, because I was a member of the Thompsonville church. No where in Appletree’s “yarns” does he ever make the statement that he was a member of the Thompsonville church or present at the time these events took place.

There may not have been a position on the list of offices available that was titled Honorary Elder, but, considering the input here and elsewhere, the statements by you and a variety of others, the majority of the Thompsonville church voted Danny in,  in spite of apparently knowing that he was not fulfilling the job of an elder.  Doesn't that make him rather an "honorary elder" by default?

Item C., is an outright lie. I checked again with Pastor Fiscalini and he confirmed that Danny never told him that he did not want the role of an Elder. If that were the case, why was Danny so angry at Fiscalini for opposing his election?

If Pastor Fiscalini says Danny never told him he did not want the role of Elder, I would have to take him at his word, as it is  his experience.

Jeanette, we both know where your sympathies lie in this situation. First at BSDA and now here at Advent Talk. You are attempting to nullify the verity of my testimony regarding the actual character of Danny Shelton, as portrayed through vignettes that give insight into how Danny operates behind the scenes at 3ABN. It is understandable why both Appletree and you, in your supporting role of him, have fought so vehemently in an attempt to discredit the facts of this episode of “An Unauthorized History of 3ABN”. The larger question here is not one of “Honorary Elders” in the SDA church, but the question of an individual having so much control of a local church that it becomes impossible for the Pastor, church board and the congregation in question to discipline said member when his actions run contrary to the word of God. This is the essence of “Nobody Owns the Church”.

I know exactly where my sympathies lie and they aren't with Danny Shelton. They also aren't with appletree. They are with the truth, wherever it can be found, with a woman who has suffered a huge blow to her life and, IMO, is now possibly being exploited by some with personal agendas, and with an ex-son-in-law whose life was also ripped apart by this ugly saga.  You may surmise that you know where my sympathies lie but, from what you have concluded here and on BSDA, it is clear to me that you have erred in your conclusions.   

The details in your story are told from your perspective and from the Fiscalini's perspectives.  The details that appletree and others have brought forward are told from their perspectives.  That leaves the reader to weigh all of the supporting evidence to attempt to determine what actually happened.  I merely provided details from both perspectives to Daryl so he could weigh them and, perhaps, find an answer to his question.

At the time these events took place the situation was as follows: the pastor was chosen by Danny Shelton and hired by the Illinois Conference in accordance with Danny wishes,  half the pastor’s salary was paid by 3ABN, the pastor and his family lived in 3ABN housing rent free, the pastor and his wife both appeared on 3ABN programming (she had her own program), in addition to his work at the Thompsonville church and 3ABN, the pastor had his own “independent” ministry which was headquartered in 3ABN facilities. At the very least there is a definite appearance of conflict of interest here. Has the situation changed with the later hiring of another Pastor? Apparently, not. Similar conflicts exist with John Lomacang. Why was Danny not disciplined for an unbiblical divorce and remarriage by the Thompsonville SDA church? Who was willing to stand up and oppose Danny Shelton? Not the pastor, elders or church board. Obviously, no one. Why?

Sister

When you first began sharing this latest story, I spent days attempting to reach and speak with Pastor Odle so I could get his version of the story.  I never was able to find and speak with him so I have had to rely on what you and others have brought forward, just like everyone else who was not present for those events.  Without a doubt the one thing I can feel secure in believng for sure is that the majority of the congregation voted Danny in as an Elder, whether it was a real or an "honorary" position.

You challenged Gregory that his arguments regarding "honorary elders" are moot, you characterize appletree's input as "yarns", you challenged what I presented from you and appletree and made judgements about my sympathies and claim that I am attempting to "nullify the verity" of your "testimony regarding the actual character of Danny Shelton" all because you believe we are calling your story into question.

What has me scratching my head is why you would speak out so strongly to protect against perceived attacks on your story that is attempting to show the actual character of Danny Shelton, and yet didn't challenge Gailon when he called Linda's character into question by publically condemning her for her lack of support of the cause.

Is it ethical right to spend millions of dollars in an attempt of defaming those who question such things? Why not rather spend those funds improving and making open the current system?

Because systems are about self preservation, not common sense, integrity and ethics. However, when whistleblowers stand up, frequently they find many others will stand with them and you develop the Enron affect: the "system" is brought to justice in time.

Someone just has to take that very first step...and you certainly know what that is all about, don't you, Johann...Linda has much to thank you for or we would not be where we are today without your efforts...too bad Linda doesn't recognize that and do us the justice of supporting the effort!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy

[Sister]

Why did you attempt to contact Pastor Rick Odle? He was not the Pastor of the Thompsonville Church at the time this incident took place. Samuel Thomas was the church pastor.

There may not have been a position on the list of offices available that was titled Honorary Elder, but, considering the input here and elsewhere, the statements by you and a variety of others, the majority of the Thompsonville church voted Danny in,  in spite of apparently knowing that he was not fulfilling the job of an elder.  Doesn't that make him rather an "honorary elder" by default?

No, it does not make Danny an "honorary elder" by default. If he was not elected as an "honorary elder" than it does not mean that by default he is an "honorary elder". I do not understand how you could logically come to that conclusion. Danny's inability to fulfill his duties as a local elder was not brought up to the church at large before the vote was taken, only to the Nominating Committee.

[inga]

I'm afraid you are at a small disadvantage in this matter.  A conversaton between you and John Alfke on atomorrow was posted here on this forum for a time.  It was quite offensive to some here as there were some references to past behavior on the part of some who hold positions of leadership here, so there was a consensus by administrators to remove most of the posts relating to to that discussion, as well as the link.

Whether or not that was factual is open to question. It could be considered slander, and for that reason, I support the deletion of the posts in question.

You should know that the same administrators will  go through and correct spelling errors as well.  I haven't noticed administrative corrections in grammar as yet, but the site is still young.

I agree that editing of posts by administrators is unjustified. Posters have the ability to edit their own posts.

[Bob Pickle]

What has me scratching my head is why you would speak out so strongly to protect against perceived attacks on your story that is attempting to show the actual character of Danny Shelton, and yet didn't challenge Gailon when he called Linda's character into question by publically condemning her for her lack of support of the cause.

A little technicality: Just because someone states that someone isn't being supportive does not necessarily mean that the unsupportive one's character is being called into question.

[GrandmaNettie]

I'm afraid you are at a small disadvantage in this matter.  A conversaton between you and John Alfke on atomorrow was posted here on this forum for a time.  It was quite offensive to some here as there were some references to past behavior on the part of some who hold positions of leadership here, so there was a consensus by administrators to remove most of the posts relating to to that discussion, as well as the link.

Whether or not that was factual is open to question. It could be considered slander, and for that reason, I support the deletion of the posts in question.

You should know that the same administrators will  go through and correct spelling errors as well.  I haven't noticed administrative corrections in grammar as yet, but the site is still young.

I agree that editing of posts by administrators is unjustified. Posters have the ability to edit their own posts.

Inga,
The quote that the link in question led to was certainly filled with many allegations and I'm not suggesting it was inappropriate to delete it.  To take so much of the rest of Doodle's post that had no connection to the link was going a bit far, IMO.  That was my point.  However, new policy says that we are not to discuss admin/mod actions so will not say more about that.

I have gone back to take a second look at the posts that I clearly remember contained notification by the owner of this site that he had corrected misspellings(was such a shock that it made my jaw drop).  The notices are no longer in the posts.  Perhaps the members who were edited remember the messages; perhaps I was imagining the spate of misspelled words editing for I am getting pretty old.  If the latter is the case, I humbly apologize for the unfounded allegations.  I don't even want to consider the ramifications if my memory is correct.

Jeanette

[J.R. Layman]

  A conversaton between you and John Alfke on atomorrow was posted here on this forum for a time.  .

I agree that editing of posts by administrators is unjustified. Posters have the ability to edit their own posts.

Dern....I'd sure like to know what conversation that was, since Alfke and I talk all the time!   FWIW he went to Collanges (sic) France, got his degree in French from AUC and taught at Loma Linda for awhile.  OTOH, he doesn't exactly get along with Gailon even though they live in the same town in MASS.  FWIW when I "edit" a post on Atomorrow.com.  I make sure that what I've edited is clearly marked as a "bleep" and I give the reason for such! (Usually some vulgarity....which is not allowed)   Indeed John Alfke is the one I most commonly have to "bleep"    even though he's my friend and a classmate of one of my sisters.  ROFL

=====

Edited to correct quote formatting probem only. - Daryl

[Johann]

[quote author=J.R. Layman link=topic=14.msg1429#msg1429
 FWIW when I "edit" a post on Atomorrow.com.  I make sure that what I've edited is clearly marked as a "bleep" and I give the reason for such! (Usually some vulgarity....which is not allowed)   Indeed John Alfke is the one I most commonly have to "bleep"    even though he's my friend and a classmate of one of my sisters.  ROFL

=====

Edited to correct quote formatting probem only. - Daryl
[/quote]

Just noticed that this site has had but one post since 2008.