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[Johann]

  (laugh) Johann, does this mean good or bad? Can only read some words but don't know the French.

Depends on which side you are.

[tinka]

smile, I bet you've been a good, kind  pastor   but the worst place to be is on the fence with no side     is my side 

[princessdi]

See, Tinka, the problem is that for some strange reason you think that we went off to equality Oz because of the efforts of those in the civil rights movement.......not true............Issue just off the top of my head.........it took 40 years after Dr. King's(BTW, I didnt' knowyou knew him personally so that you refer to him with such familiarity) death for us to even get a black President.....and he was the first one to get Secret Service from the threats just for running...and for the christian right, he is the devil incarnate, basically because you believe he is going to give undeserving black folks all kinds of handouts.  Racism is everyone's problem.  They still follow black people around stores to see if they are going to shoplift anything, while the white people are robbing them blind.  There are still "restricted areas" where blacks are discouraged from buying homes.....crosses are still burned on lawns, employment discrimination is alive and kicking.  I am not sure where you live, but just know that racism....white against black....is still alive an kicking the go good ole' US of A.  It did not end with the civil rights movment.  Now that you have been informed, I truly expect for you to stop telling that falsehood.

Yes, I know you have your friends, but you know, after all this time, your friends have never come on  here to tell me, nor any other black person that trash they feed you to stay on your good side.  I told you before there were blacks who helped the slavers, slaves who sold out those trying to escape, and the list goes on.  It does not surprise me that you have friends who sell out their own.

Now, I am not for lazy people of any race.  I was born and raised upper middle class, and still work hard at two jobs everyday to make it.  I don't get the benefit of a single social program.  However, I do know that there are those....of ALL raaces.....in need and need these programs to survive.  My point is when did we get so heartless.

Mrst53,

Now with that "great explanation" of purple ink, you can readily see what the problem is. Forefathers mistakes give new generation the "rights" for handouts.
They just don't get it. This new generation has been given much equally...Rascism is now a black problem.  I have black friends that do not think this way and you will never hear them talk of it as they are just as much American as the Whites. Past History is gone. But there are many dwellers of past history that still carry it to "taunt others" and use it under the banner of "discrimination".  Yes, there used to be discrimination but the whites and Martin worked together to change it.  If now laid back history dwellers would stop this, then all would stop -as reason and effect are still in play with the ignorance of moving on to bettter life and harmony. Most black and white in this age want this. If most of that above explantion you do not think is right then why was it so important for them to have a first black president no matter what he stood for. They did not even try to figure out the details. Just get him in. But Obama was the great deceiver of the poor and knowing this... HE USED IT. and that was more wicked then anything.  plus his agenda.  Believe me there are many black men that would have been truly a good American President and I for one would welcome any that can stand up to the American Values as again they were the best for knowing to work the land and what it takes to do it. That is experience most useful for good morals and the way of the people. But then you get the group of what you just read and it appears the blocks are blocked until Jesus returns. I feel is is quite a block of Harmony living. Your point was well taken as I do not know of any whites that speak differently as you spoke your reasoning. Of course I realize there are just as bad whites that have laid down their ignorant same back in time evils but it is not the majority. An American is an American and BO does not in anyway give sanction to what America was built on. His God is not the God of this Nation!

[Johann]

smile, I bet you've been a good, kind  pastor   but the worst place to be is on the fence with no side     is my side 

I was a staunch Republican for about 70 years. Even voted for Eisenhower.  Have you done better than that?

[Murcielago]

It is interesting to see how both politics and religion divide people into categories. The people in each category feel superior to those in the others based on the factors emphasized, and those factors become focal to the point of exclusion of the factors that the other side embraces. Each side loses the possibility of balance in their fervour to emphasize the points that make them feel superior, and de-emphasize the points that make the other side feel superior. Both points are good and valid, and balance requires both, but pride keeps both sides from it.

Republican = Strength, national security, hard work, dicipline, and economic strength.

Democrat = Social justice, compassion, and equality.

Taken together they eqaul balance, but the need to feel and project superiority keeps a mutual exclusivity that precludes that possibility. The verbage in the above partisan posts are a clear example of this, and reflect that need to feel superior, and to denigrate the people on "the other side" as inherently inferior.

[tinka]

Now that is one good example; for your Republican View

Now take the adjectives and compare with Bibical knowledge as those were excellent adjectives to use to describe how the Bible uses them.

Strength, (coming from belief in God from our "inspired writers" or forefathers,
National security (Respect for freedom, patriotism, respect for those who gave their all for us with the American flag representing the blood shed.)
Hard Work (knowing that your work will benefit you, your family, others and your church for being thankful for the above.)

Discipline, (because you have freedom of choice, persevering, determined, and inventive then all the above bring on "Economic strength.

and likewise now for the Democratic View.

Compassion,(is the most important word to use for correct application.. and here is where it is hard to understand but something we cannot control or force everyone to have as that will take their own individuality away that the Lord will judge on individual basis.  Compassoion comes from Love and God.

Social Justice is forcing every person to a National government  pay out to what THEIR CHOICE IS AND NOT YOURS. Your choice is gone for the stewarship of your own work and money.   They give it on a whim never voting or asking of any approval. Just like now all the money people have been bailed out while you keep giving and giving until you cannot live.

 Every person should be full of compassion. But not to the extent that you force Social justice,

 Equality is the only thing on earth  that everyone has equal being in the sight and love of God. There is absolutely nothing else as we are all individuals of different backgrounds, intelligence, talents and abilities. Just like individual snowflakes.  It seems noble compassion to force "sharing the wealth" but it is wrong because that brings on less equality economically  and forces the theory of Social justice whether they earn it or not and it ends up that the poor are also forced to do this whether they think so or not. There was a time the unions helped immigrants get jobs. But now it is pay the union so you can get work. No more protection because of race. Just give the money. The unions have demanded all your money and on and on it goes.

The place for Social justice is not financial equality, but a harmony of love, actions, places of choice to live, shop, play, school and that is  what I feel as been accomplished. The rest is up to the individual as their character permits then the same equal chance to live, work, and accomplish.  That is the real freedom. When a nation uses force to pay someone else's agenda --that is not freedom!!!

How can one change the Scripture when it clearly states that the "poor will be with us always." That alone is what God says and there we have no right to force against His agenda for whatever His purposes are. We cannot overrule Him and forcefully change His Plans of Creation of difference and why.  again the word Compassion and only compassion comes from God for his brother. We must help as much as we possibly can on individual basis but never ever vote for the force of all to do it.  That is why I also have been Republican.  But I also believe in latter times there were very good democrats. Kennedy, for one and more but it is no longer that type of Democratic Organization of old. This is a new sounding drum that is now corrupt on both parties....Therefore on individual basis of compassion we must seek out a part of a country, part of a community, part of a neighborhood, part of a church  for any individuals that we come in contact with and above all part of the family of God to help as our own assest of our own work permits and for close instruction for this upcoming trauma that America is headed for. The widow gave 2 bits and was accounted for giving the most . That is the plan, that is our instructions, and that is how I believe. But yes, we can all discuss for better understanding of one another.

But I thought your words were perfect.

[tinka]

See, Tinka, the problem is that for some strange reason you think that we went off to equality Oz because of the efforts of those in the civil rights movement.......not true............Issue just off the top of my head.........it took 40 years after Dr. King's(BTW, I didn't' knowyou knew him personally so that you refer to him with such familiarity) death for us to even get a black President.....and he was the first one to get Secret Service from the threats just for running...and for the christian right, he is the devil incarnate, basically because you believe he is going to give undeserving black folks all kinds of handouts.  Racism is everyone's problem.  They still follow black people around stores to see if they are going to shoplift anything, while the white people are robbing them blind.  There are still "restricted areas" where blacks are discouraged from buying homes.....crosses are still burned on lawns, employment discrimination is alive and kicking.  I am not sure where you live, but just know that racism....white against black....is still alive an kicking the go good ole' US of A.  It did not end with the civil rights movement.  Now that you have been informed, I truly expect for you to stop telling that falsehood.

Yes, I know you have your friends, but you know, after all this time, your friends have never come on  here to tell me, nor any other black person that trash they feed you to stay on your good side.  I told you before there were blacks who helped the slavers, slaves who sold out those trying to escape, and the list goes on.  It does not surprise me that you have friends who sell out their own.

Now, I am not for lazy people of any race.  I was born and raised upper middle class, and still work hard at two jobs everyday to make it.  I don't get the benefit of a single social program.  However, I do know that there are those....of ALL races.....in need and need these programs to survive.  My point is when did we get so heartless.

Mrst53,

Now with that "great explanation" of purple ink, you can readily see what the problem is. Forefathers mistakes give new generation the "rights" for handouts.
They just don't get it. This new generation has been given much equally...Racism is now a black problem.  I have black friends that do not think this way and you will never hear them talk of it as they are just as much American as the Whites. Past History is gone. But there are many dwellers of past history that still carry it to "taunt others" and use it under the banner of "discrimination".  Yes, there used to be discrimination but the whites and Martin worked together to change it.  If now laid back history dwellers would stop this, then all would stop -as reason and effect are still in play with the ignorance of moving on to better life and harmony. Most black and white in this age want this. If most of that above ex plantion you do not think is right then why was it so important for them to have a first black president no matter what he stood for. They did not even try to figure out the details. Just get him in. But Obama was the great deceiver of the poor and knowing this... HE USED IT. and that was more wicked then anything.  plus his agenda.  Believe me there are many black men that would have been truly a good American President and I for one would welcome any that can stand up to the American Values as again they were the best for knowing to work the land and what it takes to do it. That is experience most useful for good morals and the way of the people. But then you get the group of what you just read and it appears the blocks are blocked until Jesus returns. I feel is is quite a block of Harmony living. Your point was well taken as I do not know of any whites that speak differently as you spoke your reasoning. Of course I realize there are just as bad whites that have laid down their ignorant same back in time evils but it is not the majority. An American is an American and BO does not in anyway give sanction to what America was built on. His God is not the God of this Nation!

Your wrong again, racism is not everyone's problem because if it was no one would get to heaven.. It is the ones that never lived it but relive past history over and over from past generation shoes and not their own in this day and time.  You have freedom to have 2 jobs, middle class living, choice of living where you want, education, using your vote for your agenda because of past history. Your free the same as me. The amazing point is voting to make us not free!!! You would think you could learn from your endeavor to relive and relive in the past instead of believing the change of force on American soil where many are buried and gave their lives for the cause of freedom. Life, liberty and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. You voted to take it out. Is this ignorant or what?? over promises never kept and over a Socialist agenda?? How do like going to pay the high taxes that was given to all the bailout of the rich?? and he keeps going until I think the red necks will shut him down.
Believe it or not!

Actually, the race to watch in great depth is the financial in the world filtrated by the Jews as in the beginning of being blessed for financial.
How have they used this blessing??  The holocaust was horrific, I imagine God could have stopped it. But in History back then they confiscated all businesses by ownership, and using all money to control all businesses. The people rose up against in fierce disbelief of actions. (Will this happen in America yet for same reasons)   Hitler!  Should the holocaust have happened, we think not but there was a cause why it did. It was the Lords business as He sure well knew the action.   Maybe you should change your talents of History to another race and think upon the history of that and why and leave the petty stuff go as America protects the unbelievers of Jesus on forced National basis. The Jews are not going to be saved on National basis but individually the same as us.  They did it. They are still doing it because they believe they are going to build a "New Jerusalem with New Temple" and use every means to still take all they can as a Nation while the Muslims concoct their agenda.  Obama is a Muslim with Muslim agenda and beliefs whether you admit it, believe it or not. and he is in our White house no matter where he born from.  They also have an embedded agenda from their roots. It seems to be a curse! a blockage that will not be removed on a national basis. Individual Jews must come to the Lord on Individual basis and so the horrible curse of racism reasoning as well. It's over --even if the rebels still raise their rebel flag on an individual basis as they choose to die for believing against "freedom for all" but America as a whole as come to "freedom for all" while individuals try to "change" it to their own individual "hates". Christians cannot be in these shoes from the past, now or in the future.   The one equal race to be in the "Sons and daughter of Jesus" and standing for His agenda and Helping to bring in all races. and there is no racism allowed in this race. Plain and simple.

[Johann]

Watching for signs from different perspectives?

[tinka]

Yes, Johann
The picture is greater and the devil uses much to distract the real deed of oppression of the people.

[mrst53]

Tinka,
 when I wrote my comment, I was not hinting at race. In fact, I was referring to the lazy persons I knew in my past neighborhood in WV and they were VERY MUCH WHITE!- One young man, age 26, worked 1 month, decided he didn't like it, quit. Now he has found a way, not only to collect SSI for he and his wife(perfectly healthy and not working) and 2 children($600 per month) plus $660 in food stamps per month. He lives with his dad, hunts and fishes and mows yards. There is NOT a thing wrong with him. He JUST DID NOT LIKE WORKING EVERYDAY Like who does.
Tinka, I am sorry, if your ancestors were slaves. Mine were indensured servants. They ended up in the hills of WV, living and working in the mines. I did not have a middle income upbringing. My mom ironed for people while I grew up. She made less than $3000.00 a year, when $7000.00 was poverty level. I never knew from 1 day to the next whether I would be in the same house or my alchoholic dad would tic off the landlord and we would be moving again. 

But the past is past and that is where it needs to be and we need to learn from it and move on. I know it can't be forgotten and I don't think we should, just so we don't repeat it, but we can't continue to hold GRUDGES  and teach our children to hold these grudges or the WORLD

[princessdi]

New problem....Tinka, black people still "live" racism each and everyday.  There is no way I can convince you, who has never experienced racism before, of this, because you choose to believe otherwise.  It would be so much easier for us to leave the passed in the passed if it weren't influencing our present and future.

[tinka]

mrst53,
(smile) sometimes it gets a little confusing on posting but you probably meant to address PrincessDi  instead of me (tinka) with this message. The mix up may have been my fault for not addressing my post directly to Di and you thought I was addressing you back.

Di was addressing me as we sort of have discussions on racism and not pertaining to your posting of which we welcome.

I am not black and i post a lot about not having racism as a christian although racism is yet practiced I feel in the lives of non christian. and Di posts about all the evils about the slaves and relives it a lot although I believe she has not went through it and practices the freedoms that are still left the same as me.

My ancestors were not slaves but many whites before were burned at stake for heretics in past generations so I do not know which is worst other then the fact we in a new generation each have our part to put it away as "it cannot enter heaven" with some still in this state. So, you will see at times debating going back and forth. Di and me disagree on much, including religion as we are I think in the same denomination.  In fact it is an experience of never seen until I got on the posts to realize such difference. It is true that all my life i have worked very hard, on farm, business, 6 children and many grandchildren and greats and political and business people because of business that my outside friends has been local church only. The post bring out many different ways and how people believe about religion that is quite eye opening and the Internet has given quite a grandstand of church problems as I imagine in all religions. and this thing going with the TS saga is the worst of a kind. In fact this man has every chance from religion to know his "desires" were evil and destroying, his family knew, his brother knew, and yet done nothing to stop it. A man of this sort is so evil that he took his talents to best hide them is a church. So I feel he is in double jeopardy with God.

[tinka]

New problem....Tinka, black people still "live" racism each and everyday.  There is no way I can convince you, who has never experienced racism before, of this, because you choose to believe otherwise.  It would be so much easier for us to leave the passed in the passed if it weren't influencing our present and future.

Di, I am fully away that this sort of thing still goes on and probably will until it all comes to an end, but we cannot keep it going it to relive and relive until it instills into the new generation of children that have not faced it and make them feel inferior. (This is what does it you know).  It should never be spoken of. These are the actions that keep it still going. Maybe I guess I see on tv out in California where everthing is beyond belief at this day and time things happen but where I am and very close to a huge city where black population is almost equal we find a very swell, friendly, and mostly what I call harmony living. It gives me great encouragemet and feeling.  I just do not make any difference in people except honestly for one thing....is it profiling??? what has 911 done to me???I get scared when I see muslims in the Wal-mart.  Maybe thats what they want so we all get out and go home and they can take over so there now you can call me what you want.  Is that what your feeling with whites even if its been almost hundred years ago??? and why it keeps going??? What happened at 9-11 is now and in sight.

[princessdi]

It is now and in your sight, which is the only thing you consider important.  What to you mean these actions should never be spoken of?  Just ignore them?  So you do live in OZ?  Good for you.  Teaching the generations to come the truth does not make them inferior.  Especially since it is apparent that we have yet to learn from these same mistakes.  Where do you get this stuff or the authority to repeat it?  We teach our children, then teach them what they must do to overcome in this imperfect work. Since we are Christians, we should also be teaching our children that in spite of what man tries to do, God is still in contorl and what He has for them, it is for them and no man can stop.   

Those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them..................we must first admit that there is a problem before it can be solved...........both are true.  However, is we do as you say and never mention it, they will fester and grow in the darkness of ignorance.  Not only is who happened on 9/11 now and in our sight, if you are black, brown, and now muslim, so is racism, and those bombs are going off on a daily basis in our lives, and you want us to ignore them, right.   Go back to who ever that is feeding you these trash, and tell I said to stop lying to you, and you stop being so gullible. 

And stop being so paranoid.....they want you to leave so they can take over???  You have got to be kidding me!  You said it yourself, Dr.King and those fighting for civil rights did so that we ALL might live here together.  It is only white supremist who are calling for minorities to leave so they can like in a lily white world.  So no, I don't wish all white people would leave the US so the black people can take over.....that is more than paranoid  If we start with realizing that we are ALL, ALL children of God and brothers and sisters in Christ, we will do away with a whole lot of this maddess.  But then again, that is the reakl fear of white men[general] isn't it?  That someone, especially those who they have oppressed to conquer this country will rise up and take over........they fear.........pay back from the blacks, from the native Americans, and whom ever they see getting too powerful.     Some repentance and healing is needed to allow God to take that fear.

Forgive me if I sound a little angry, I do admit to some frustration.  To put it bluntly, I just am not taking it well that there is a caucasian woman who never ever in her life experienced racism  or discrimination of any kind, telling me, who lives with it on a daily basis that firstly she doesn't believe it still exists, and if it does I should just ignore it.   Please everyone, including Tinka, forgive me, if I bow out this thread.  It is extreme unwise to continue a conversation with someone who is unsafe and means me and those of Children of God who are of color no good.

Di, I am fully away that this sort of thing still goes on and probably will until it all comes to an end, but we cannot keep it going it to relive and relive until it instills into the new generation of children that have not faced it and make them feel inferior. (This is what does it you know).  It should never be spoken of. These are the actions that keep it still going. Maybe I guess I see on tv out in California where everthing is beyond belief at this day and time things happen but where I am and very close to a huge city where black population is almost equal we find a very swell, friendly, and mostly what I call harmony living. It gives me great encouragemet and feeling.  I just do not make any difference in people except honestly for one thing....is it profiling??? what has 911 done to me???I get scared when I see muslims in the Wal-mart.  Maybe thats what they want so we all get out and go home and they can take over so there now you can call me what you want.  Is that what your feeling with whites even if its been almost hundred years ago??? and why it keeps going??? What happened at 9-11 is now and in sight.

[tinka]

Too bad you just can't get it straight what people actually are saying and then you come back with off the wall different meaning of something I never said or meant nor really watch the  total meaning of what people are saying.  I am not the only one that you do this to. but your right in no sense discussing. It is never in my heart, but constantly on yours. So be it.