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[GrandmaNettie]

I am moving these posts to a new thread so we don't get too far off topic in the Prayer for Blue Mountain Television Sharathon thread.

Much focus has been made on the behavior of Danny Shelton and the 3abn leadership that Bob, Gailon and others find out of line with their interpretation of traditional Adventism.  EGW writings are often used to bolster their positions against the behavior of Danny Shelton and the 3abn leadership.  Are they applying the same standard to their own behavior?  Are they practicing what they preach?

It is my sincere hope that after the careful review of the following posts we can calmly discuss the best way to approach the perceived sin in the 3abn camp, and how we should treat each other when our views differ.

Is it too late to shift strategy?  Is the horse so far out of the barn that it can't be led back in?

Now, why don't you take your incidious little detraction game and "ponder" it for a while. When you get done, let's play chess some day!!! You would have a better chance at winning that game, Grandma.

Gailon Arthur Joy

Gailon, were you aware of the EGW position on chess when you played it as a child?  How about when you tossed out the invitation for us to play chess some day?  Do you believe it is a sinful game since she said so?  Do you have a chess set in your home?  I have one or two.  My grandkids have lost a piece from one of them.  Have you taught your grandkids to play yet?

In fact I was a chess champion... and quite proud of the title...and this at the very same time I had Congressman Philbin write a recommendation letter to the US Military Academy at West Point. Unfortunately, I failed my physical, (unacceptable eyesite at the time, without glasses) and ended my dream of a military career. My nickname was "general" and I lived and dreamed of leading armies in battle. Even was part of a team that would play out scenarios with Avalon Hill type game boards that would go on for weeks in "the Tower Room". My hero's were McArthur, Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and host of others. My specialty was integrated large force engagement in a conventional setting (Army Corp, Army Group and theatre commands). When that dream went bust I left it behind, reluctantly at first, but then I met that terrific lady that would become my wife and never looked back.

I believe somewhere in storage I do still have my Chess Champion Set and Board (if my wife didn't dump it at some point.). I have not played since I have been married and have not taught either my children or grandchildren how to play.

Now, for the more important question, did I know Mrs White gave specific counsel on Chess at the time I was playing? Yes, I did. Did I ignore that counsel, yes I did!! Would she have approved of West point? EXTREMELY UNLIKELY as the Point is not tolerant of conscientious objectors. At the time, war and its death and destruction were lost in the glamour of shoulder bars and stars, battle ribbons and the need to out-think your opponent. I believe I was pretty good at strategic thinking and implementation in controlled settings. And I had nerves of steel that worked well for me in an ER for five years.

Years later those same talents would work well for me as we developed trial strategy and did case management. Mental agility while part of a trial team is critical as the case unfolds and each puts forth their direct, cross and then rebuttal witnesses. In summary, the advocates play the supreme game of "toying" with the jury in an effort to gain the upper hand or to handicap the opposition. There is a right way and a wrong way with each jury. The right way leads to the glory of winning and the almighty award or judgement (and a happy client), the wrong way
leads to the depression and nausea of defeat and an unhappy client.

Fortunately, my wife was quite helpful in getting me beyond those stages and settling into a "normal life" however that is best defined. The 'general" is long faded and the chess skills quite rusty, I am sure. Since then, I have come to believe unreservedly in the Spirit of Prophecy and the great messages and lifestyle that is gifted to the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Is that a sufficient answer for the dis-ingenuous inquisitions of GrandmaNettie?

Gailon Arthur Joy

I appreciate the insight you have given by sharing where your passion was in your younger years.  I would submit, however, that you have not left your dreams of leading armies in battle behind, merely transplanted them to what you may suppose to be an alternate, vegetarian battlefield.  You are still very much in your Tower Room, your bunker, still mustering players to engage in scenarios on Avalon Hill type game boards although now with the lives of real people being pushed about.
 
With each conflict you have chosen, among them Hartland, AUC and 3abn, you are living that dream and following the strategies of some of those heroes of old rather than the One who could actually lead you to victory.  You are rousing in some of your soldiers a blood lust that is reminiscent of the spirit that drove the Crusades and the Inquisition as they model their behavior after you, their “general”.
 
The outcome of any great and noble campaign depends on the fabric of the leader and his soldiers and how they engage the “enemy”.  The true motivation within each heart for joining the fight is of equal importance.

With great flourish you aver that “Since then, I have come to believe unreservedly in the Spirit of Prophecy and the great messages and lifestyle that is gifted to the Seventh-day Adventist Church.” But, are you practicing what you unreservedly believe?  When you thrust and slash at your supposed  adversaries with abusive words and actions you are most decidedly not unreservedly practicing the counsel of the “Spirit of Prophecy”.   How many demeaning phrases echo through these digital halls after you have cast them like Pharisaical stones at me and Bonnie as well as those like Ian, Anyman, and Sam who defend 3abn?  How many emails to Danny Shelton and others are out there with a level of vicious verbage unbecoming for anyone claiming to be a follower of Christ?

Is the grand strategy you have been using in these crusades in line with the Spirit of Prophecy that you unreservedly believe in?   I am posting portions of the following EGW writings that directly speak to how Christians are to treat others:

Testimonies for the Church, Volume Two, Pages 50 - 55 ~ Chapter 8. Evilspeaking:

 
Sister F moves from impulse, and finds fault, and has had too much to say against her brethren and sisters. This will cause confusion in any church. If she could control her own spirit, a great victory would be gained. If she would seek the heavenly adorning, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, calls of great price, she would then be a real help to the church. If she would cherish the spirit of Christ, and become a peacemaker, her own soul would flourish, and she would be a blessing to the church wherever she might be located.
…
 
As Sister F has seen a selfish spirit manifest in deal, she has committed a greater sin by feeling and talking in regard to the matter as she has. She has erred in expecting too much. The tongue has been truly an unruly member, a world of iniquity, set on fire of hell, untamed and untamable. Sister F has had a spirit of retaliation, manifesting by her deportment that she was offended. This was all wrong. She has cherished bitter feelings, which are foreign to the spirit of Christ. Anger, resentment, and all kinds of unkind tempers are indulged by speaking against those with whom we are displeased, and by reciting the errors and failings and sins of neighbors. The lustful desires are gratified.

Sister F, if you are grieved because your neighbors or friends are doing wrong to their own hurt, if they are overtaken in fault, follow the Bible rule. "Tell him his fault between thee and him alone." As you go to the one you suppose to be in error, see that you speak in a meek and lowly spirit; for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. The erring can be restored in no other way than in the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and tender love. Be careful in your manner. Avoid anything in look or gesture, word or tone, that savors of pride or self-sufficiency. Guard yourself against a word or look that would exalt yourself, or place your goodness and righteousness in contrast with their failings. Beware of the most distant approach to disdain, overbearing, or contempt. With care avoid every appearance of anger; and though you use plainness of speech, let there be no reproach, no railing accusation, no token of warmth but that of earnest love. Above all, let there be no shadow of hate or ill will, no bitterness or sourness of expression. Nothing but kindness and gentleness can flow from a heart of love. Yet all these precious fruits need not hinder you from speaking in the most serious, solemn manner, as though angels were directing their eyes upon you, and you were acting in reference to the coming judgment. Bear in mind that the success of reproof depends greatly upon the spirit in which it is given. Do not neglect earnest prayer that you may possess a lowly mind, and that angels of God may go before you to work upon the hearts you are trying to reach, and so soften them by heavenly impressions that your efforts may avail. If any good is accomplished, take no credit to yourself. God alone should be exalted. God alone has done it all.

You have excused yourself for speaking evil of your brother or sister or neighbor to others before going to him and taking the steps which God has absolutely commanded. You say: "Why, I did not speak to anyone until I was so burdened that I could not refrain." What burdened you? Was it not a plain neglect of your own duty, of a thus saith the Lord? You were under the guilt of sin because you did not go and tell the offender his fault between you and him alone. If you did not do this, if you disobeyed God, how could you be otherwise than burdened unless your heart was hardened while you were trampling the command of God underfoot, and in your heart hating your brother or neighbor? And what way have you found to unburden yourself? God reproves you for a sin of omission in not telling your brother his fault, and you excuse and comfort yourself by a sin of commission by telling your brother's faults to another person! Is this the right way to purchase ease--by committing sin?
 
All your efforts to save the erring may be unavailing. They may repay you evil for good. They may be enraged rather than convinced. What if they hear to no good purpose, and pursue the evil course they have begun? This will frequently occur. Sometimes the mildest and tenderest reproof will have no good effect. In that case the blessing you wanted another to receive by pursuing a course of righteousness, ceasing to do evil and learning to do well, will return into your own bosom. If the erring persist in sin, treat them kindly, and leave them with your heavenly Father. You have delivered your soul; their sin no longer rests upon you; you are not now partaker of their sin. But if they perish, their blood is upon their own head.

Dear friend, an entire transformation must take place in you, or you will be weighed in the balance and found wanting. The church at -----, especially talking women, have a lesson to learn. "If any man [or woman] among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." Many will be weighed in the balance and found wanting in this matter of so great importance. Where are the Christians who walk by this rule? who will take God's part against the evilspeaker? who will please God, and set a watch, a continual watch, before the mouth, and keep the door of the lips? Speak evil of no man. Hear evil of no man. If there be no hearers, there will be no speakers of evil. If anyone speaks evil in your presence, check him. Refuse to hear him, though his manner be ever so soft and his accents mild. He may profess attachment, and yet throw out covert hints and stab the character in the dark.

Resolutely refuse to hear, though the whisperer complains of being burdened till he speak. Burdened indeed! with a cursed secret which separateth very friends. Go, burdened ones, and free yourselves from your burden in God's appointed way. First go tell your brother his fault between you and him alone. If this fail, next take with you one or two friends, and tell him in their presence. If these steps fail, then tell it to the church. Not an unbeliever is to be made acquainted with the slightest particular of the matter. Telling it to the church is the last step to be taken. Publish it not to the enemies of our faith. They have no right to the knowledge of church matters, lest the weakness and errors of Christ's followers be exposed.

Those who are preparing for the coming of Christ should be sober and watch unto prayer, for our adversary, the devil, goeth about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour; whom we are to resist steadfast in the faith. "He that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers."

The writings above are undeniably clear in their counsel on how to treat others.  Is her counsel accurate, inspired, an SDA standard that makes evilspeaking to others a sin?

Is it a safe procedure to use a manner that is condemned by the Spirit of Prophecy to call sin by its right name?  Is it morally right to treat our neighbors in a way other than how Jesus wants us to treat them? 

[Johann]

You seem to be so sincere. How much time then, are you devoting, Grandma Nettie, to discover what is God's will in this area? Would you join us in a prayer group? Would you be willing to consider also, some of EGW's statement which seem to draw in a different direction than what you are pursuing?

Johann

[Snoopy]

Is GrandmaNettie's double talk in line with the Spirit of Prophecy?

[Habanero]

One of the oldest tricks in the book is the use of Holy Scripture to back up one's claims or actions. The oldest trick in the Adventist book is to do that with Ellen White's writings. We all know very well that there is virtually no point that cannot be proven from EGW or the Bible. The use of either one of those sets of writings as proof of whatever one wishes to prove has become a cheap and unconvincing means of making a point. Indeed, it often simply raises suspicion, as it is common for scounderels to hide behind holy writ.

Writ is words and words move people and raise emotion, but actions speak to what is hidden behind those words, and in my experience some of the most appalling people and organizations whose actions are malicious and harmful are the ones most well versed in holy literature, and the most prolific in throwing it around.

[bonnie]

One of the oldest tricks in the book is the use of Holy Scripture to back up one's claims or actions. The oldest trick in the Adventist book is to do that with Ellen White's writings. We all know very well that there is virtually no point that cannot be proven from EGW or the Bible. The use of either one of those sets of writings as proof of whatever one wishes to prove has become a cheap and unconvincing means of making a point. Indeed, it often simply raises suspicion, as it is common for scounderels to hide behind holy writ.

Writ is words and words move people and raise emotion, but actions speak to what is hidden behind those words, and in my experience some of the most appalling people and organizations whose actions are malicious and harmful are the ones most well versed in holy literature, and the most prolific in throwing it around.

Bob and Gailon do so with frequency and  almost declare a religious calling in what they are doing

[GrandmaNettie]

One of the oldest tricks in the book is the use of Holy Scripture to back up one's claims or actions. The oldest trick in the Adventist book is to do that with Ellen White's writings. We all know very well that there is virtually no point that cannot be proven from EGW or the Bible. The use of either one of those sets of writings as proof of whatever one wishes to prove has become a cheap and unconvincing means of making a point. Indeed, it often simply raises suspicion, as it is common for scounderels to hide behind holy writ.

Writ is words and words move people and raise emotion, but actions speak to what is hidden behind those words, and in my experience some of the most appalling people and organizations whose actions are malicious and harmful are the ones most well versed in holy literature, and the most prolific in throwing it around.

I agree with every word you have written here, Habanero.  I know you fully understand that my motivation for using the passage from the EGW writings is because that is the standard Bob, Gailon, SDAminister and others have held up to judge the fitness of many to be involved in 3abn leadership.  For those who don't get why, it is because I felt it appropriate to hold their mirror back up to them.  We have clearly seen the way emotions have been raised to such a pitch as to give some the sense of license to falsely accuse and villify their fellow human beings.  Wrongs cannot be righted by more wrongs.  Hate, even garbed in scripture, still stinks, divides and destroys. 

[Habanero]

I agree with every word you have written here, Habanero.  I know you fully understand that my motivation for using the passage from the EGW writings is because that is the standard Bob, Gailon, SDAminister and others have held up to judge the fitness of many to be involved in 3abn leadership.

3ABN has used the same in their attacks against against people in judging their fitness to speak in churches, or work within the Adventist fold. I hope that you will speak to their misuse with the same vigor you have in speaking to Bob, Gailon and SDAminister, as they have been far more prolific in the number of people they have attempted to destroy and the lengths they have gone to.

For those who don't get why, it is because I felt it appropriate to hold their mirror back up to them.  We have clearly seen the way emotions have been raised to such a pitch as to give some the sense of license to falsely accuse and villify their fellow human beings.  Wrongs cannot be righted by more wrongs.  Hate, even garbed in scripture, still stinks, divides and destroys.

You are right about that. We have seen that use of emotions being used as a platform to give license to the false accusation and villification to fellow humans and hate garbed in scripture and spreading of the Gospel on a scale far beyond Bob and Gailon, by 3ABN and Danny before Bob and Gailon came along. Can I assume that there will be an equal show of upset over that?

In what I say about the use of scripture and EGW I am making a blanket statement that covers anyone. But yes, I understand that you were trying to use the mirror thing.

[Habanero]

Bob and Gailon do so with frequency and  almost declare a religious calling in what they are doing

3ABN does it with frequency and DOES declare a religious calling in what they are doing.

[bonnie]

3ABN does it with frequency and DOES declare a religious calling in what they are doing.

Your right which is why I have a low tolerance for any independnet ministries. But I have the same low tolerance for the self professed avengers that feel annointed by God doing same.

[Habanero]

3ABN does it with frequency and DOES declare a religious calling in what they are doing.

Your right which is why I have a low tolerance for any independnet ministries. But I have the same low tolerance for the self professed avengers that feel annointed by God doing same.

Is that so? Your words don't reflect it. You speak against Bob and Gailon ad nauseum but nary a word regarding organizations and people who are far more vicious and prolific than those two. In fact it seems that anyone who expresses a negative opinion about 3ABN or DS, or mentions an action of their's that disturbs them is immediately attacked by you for doing so.

[bonnie]

Is that so? Your words don't reflect it. You speak against Bob and Gailon ad nauseum but nary a word regarding organizations and people who are far more vicious and prolific than those two. In fact it seems that anyone who expresses a negative opinion about 3ABN or DS, or mentions an action of their's that disturbs them is immediately attacked by you for doing so.

Kind of strange as I got myself in trouble on another forum stating what I thought of DS and 3ABN.
It isn't those that have a negative opinion about same,it is those that take it upon themselves to call others trash,of no value and alway invoking God's wrath down on someone.
The sly implications instead of stating outright what you what someone to know. After all if you only insinuate or imply you can't be a fault if someone takes it the wrong(right) way.
Implications that DS has been involved with many women and does his current wife know.
One or many women,DS,I believe is guilty of dumping his wife for a new model. After the fact and more to the fact, either there is no interest from the offical SDA.org,his conference to expect him to hold the standards he talks about,or they can do nothing.
So why the sleezy implications. Did he, say so. If you are only speculating to smear a little more you(general) are doing just as bad as he has done.
Be upfront about diffing under the carpet to see what sin you can find of everyone connected to 3ABN,

You want media attention,go get it yourself. If this is important to Bob and he thinks they will even care,let him hog the spotlight as it surely will be focused on the accuser very quickly.
If Bob's personal life can withstand that type of scrutiny,let him do it


but nary a word regarding organizations and people who are far more vicious and prolific than those two

Really, we spent almost six years doing that.in MN. Guess what,Bob didn't have an interest. Maybe because it dealt with the official denomination and his conference. The way he seems to thrive on the threat of lawsuits I find it quite amazing that he had nothing to say about it ending up in the MNSCourt.

But it would be tough to find to many more prolific in this specific behaviour.

[tinka]

I am moving these posts to a new thread so we don't get too far off topic in the Prayer for Blue Mountain Television Sharathon thread.

Much focus has been made on the behavior of Danny Shelton and the 3abn leadership that Bob, Gailon and others find out of line with their interpretation of traditional Adventism.  

I find the term "traditional Adventism" comes from many different interpetations because instead of reading for one's self most like to be led. Example: An older pillar constantly told in Sabbath School class of not ever eating an egg. Until one day reading the book from cover to cover I saw she was refering to an obeese family and telling them they should never eat an egg again. I can go on I think till I'm gone in discussing peoples interpetations from taking only out or just the context they want to hear or believe.  I have seen interpetation lead to fanatical behavior.  I really do not even like that term. EGW I find is clear in a lot of different patterns in people's lives and mostly she discusses a certain situation for whom she writes too. I have never ever found her running in different directions like the internet likes to belittle, ridicule, and take her down. OF course she knew that would happen. I enjoyed her every word tremendously and appreciated that God gave us this last direction in all walks or patterns of how ever our character is.

Had a couple of major operations where I was laid up a while when young. I made good use of it while on my back. I could not get away from her writings from that time on. Actually her writings are to guide us in all applications of what ever patterns that we might come across.

Also --she believe it or not --did not tell men of war to shrink away from it for someone else to take their place. Just think of it. As in all generations there had to be someone fight for the right or for freedom.  I think some of that sort of came from a division of Adventist on their stand in not being reasonable in all things,, maybe from the Swiss many years ago.



EGW writings are often used to bolster their positions against the behavior of Danny Shelton and the 3abn leadership.  Are they applying the same standard to their own behavior?  Are they practicing what they preach?

It is my sincere hope that after the careful review of the following posts we can calmly discuss the best way to approach the perceived sin in the 3abn camp, and how we should treat each other when our views differ.

Is it too late to shift strategy?  Is the horse so far out of the barn that it can't be led back in?

Now, why don't you take your incidious little detraction game and "ponder" it for a while. When you get done, let's play chess some day!!! You would have a better chance at winning that game, Grandma.

Gailon Arthur Joy

Gailon, were you aware of the EGW position on chess when you played it as a child?  How about when you tossed out the invitation for us to play chess some day?  Do you believe it is a sinful game since she said so?  Do you have a chess set in your home?  I have one or two.  My grandkids have lost a piece from one of them.  Have you taught your grandkids to play yet?

In fact I was a chess champion... and quite proud of the title...and this at the very same time I had Congressman Philbin write a recommendation letter to the US Military Academy at West Point. Unfortunately, I failed my physical, (unacceptable eyesite at the time, without glasses) and ended my dream of a military career. My nickname was "general" and I lived and dreamed of leading armies in battle. Even was part of a team that would play out scenarios with Avalon Hill type game boards that would go on for weeks in "the Tower Room". My hero's were McArthur, Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley and host of others. My specialty was integrated large force engagement in a conventional setting (Army Corp, Army Group and theatre commands). When that dream went bust I left it behind, reluctantly at first, but then I met that terrific lady that would become my wife and never looked back.

I believe somewhere in storage I do still have my Chess Champion Set and Board (if my wife didn't dump it at some point.). I have not played since I have been married and have not taught either my children or grandchildren how to play.

Now, for the more important question, did I know Mrs White gave specific counsel on Chess at the time I was playing? Yes, I did. Did I ignore that counsel, yes I did!! Would she have approved of West point? EXTREMELY UNLIKELY as the Point is not tolerant of conscientious objectors. At the time, war and its death and destruction were lost in the glamour of shoulder bars and stars, battle ribbons and the need to out-think your opponent. I believe I was pretty good at strategic thinking and implementation in controlled settings. And I had nerves of steel that worked well for me in an ER for five years.

Years later those same talents would work well for me as we developed trial strategy and did case management. Mental agility while part of a trial team is critical as the case unfolds and each puts forth their direct, cross and then rebuttal witnesses. In summary, the advocates play the supreme game of "toying" with the jury in an effort to gain the upper hand or to handicap the opposition. There is a right way and a wrong way with each jury. The right way leads to the glory of winning and the almighty award or judgement (and a happy client), the wrong way
leads to the depression and nausea of defeat and an unhappy client.

Fortunately, my wife was quite helpful in getting me beyond those stages and settling into a "normal life" however that is best defined. The 'general" is long faded and the chess skills quite rusty, I am sure. Since then, I have come to believe unreservedly in the Spirit of Prophecy and the great messages and lifestyle that is gifted to the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Is that a sufficient answer for the dis-ingenuous inquisitions of GrandmaNettie?

Gailon Arthur Joy

I appreciate the insight you have given by sharing where your passion was in your younger years.  I would submit, however, that you have not left your dreams of leading armies in battle behind, merely transplanted them to what you may suppose to be an alternate, vegetarian battlefield.  You are still very much in your Tower Room, your bunker, still mustering players to engage in scenarios on Avalon Hill type game boards although now with the lives of real people being pushed about.

Grammy,
I conser Galon and Bob like the "warrior David" after God's own heart. You see when I read the quotes below I did not know for sure as what you posted appeared to be for what I said above. YOu see the patterns you posted were more or less about lust and womans everyday gossip. This here problem is on a very big corporate scale of just the facts mam. Somebody has to do it. I am thankful some on is and am so glad that all surfaced at least some Adventist can now put their honest money to better work. Now this is what I mean about using wrong contexts for the wrong situations.
 
With each conflict you have chosen, among them Hartland, AUC and 3abn, you are living that dream and following the strategies of some of those heroes of old rather than the One who could actually lead you to victory.  You are rousing in some of your soldiers a blood lust that is reminiscent of the spirit that drove the Crusades and the Inquisition as they model their behavior after you, their “general”.
 
The outcome of any great and noble campaign depends on the fabric of the leader and his soldiers and how they engage the “enemy”.  The true motivation within each heart for joining the fight is of equal importance.

With great flourish you aver that “Since then, I have come to believe unreservedly in the Spirit of Prophecy and the great messages and lifestyle that is gifted to the Seventh-day Adventist Church.” But, are you practicing what you unreservedly believe?  When you thrust and slash at your supposed  adversaries with abusive words and actions you are most decidedly not unreservedly practicing the counsel of the “Spirit of Prophecy”.   How many demeaning phrases echo through these digital halls after you have cast them like Pharisaical stones at me and Bonnie as well as those like Ian, Anyman, and Sam who defend 3abn?  How many emails to Danny Shelton and others are out there with a level of vicious verbage unbecoming for anyone claiming to be a follower of Christ?

Is the grand strategy you have been using in these crusades in line with the Spirit of Prophecy that you unreservedly believe in?   I am posting portions of the following EGW writings that directly speak to how Christians are to treat others:

Testimonies for the Church, Volume Two, Pages 50 - 55 ~ Chapter 8. Evilspeaking:

 
Sister F moves from impulse, and finds fault, and has had too much to say against her brethren and sisters. This will cause confusion in any church. If she could control her own spirit, a great victory would be gained. If she would seek the heavenly adorning, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, calls of great price, she would then be a real help to the church. If she would cherish the spirit of Christ, and become a peacemaker, her own soul would flourish, and she would be a blessing to the church wherever she might be located.
…
 
As Sister F has seen a selfish spirit manifest in deal, she has committed a greater sin by feeling and talking in regard to the matter as she has. She has erred in expecting too much. The tongue has been truly an unruly member, a world of iniquity, set on fire of hell, untamed and untamable. Sister F has had a spirit of retaliation, manifesting by her deportment that she was offended. This was all wrong. She has cherished bitter feelings, which are foreign to the spirit of Christ. Anger, resentment, and all kinds of unkind tempers are indulged by speaking against those with whom we are displeased, and by reciting the errors and failings and sins of neighbors. The lustful desires are gratified.

Sister F, if you are grieved because your neighbors or friends are doing wrong to their own hurt, if they are overtaken in fault, follow the Bible rule. "Tell him his fault between thee and him alone." As you go to the one you suppose to be in error, see that you speak in a meek and lowly spirit; for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. The erring can be restored in no other way than in the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and tender love. Be careful in your manner. Avoid anything in look or gesture, word or tone, that savors of pride or self-sufficiency. Guard yourself against a word or look that would exalt yourself, or place your goodness and righteousness in contrast with their failings. Beware of the most distant approach to disdain, overbearing, or contempt. With care avoid every appearance of anger; and though you use plainness of speech, let there be no reproach, no railing accusation, no token of warmth but that of earnest love. Above all, let there be no shadow of hate or ill will, no bitterness or sourness of expression. Nothing but kindness and gentleness can flow from a heart of love. Yet all these precious fruits need not hinder you from speaking in the most serious, solemn manner, as though angels were directing their eyes upon you, and you were acting in reference to the coming judgment. Bear in mind that the success of reproof depends greatly upon the spirit in which it is given. Do not neglect earnest prayer that you may possess a lowly mind, and that angels of God may go before you to work upon the hearts you are trying to reach, and so soften them by heavenly impressions that your efforts may avail. If any good is accomplished, take no credit to yourself. God alone should be exalted. God alone has done it all.

You have excused yourself for speaking evil of your brother or sister or neighbor to others before going to him and taking the steps which God has absolutely commanded. You say: "Why, I did not speak to anyone until I was so burdened that I could not refrain." What burdened you? Was it not a plain neglect of your own duty, of a thus saith the Lord? You were under the guilt of sin because you did not go and tell the offender his fault between you and him alone. If you did not do this, if you disobeyed God, how could you be otherwise than burdened unless your heart was hardened while you were trampling the command of God underfoot, and in your heart hating your brother or neighbor? And what way have you found to unburden yourself? God reproves you for a sin of omission in not telling your brother his fault, and you excuse and comfort yourself by a sin of commission by telling your brother's faults to another person! Is this the right way to purchase ease--by committing sin?
 
All your efforts to save the erring may be unavailing. They may repay you evil for good. They may be enraged rather than convinced. What if they hear to no good purpose, and pursue the evil course they have begun? This will frequently occur. Sometimes the mildest and tenderest reproof will have no good effect. In that case the blessing you wanted another to receive by pursuing a course of righteousness, ceasing to do evil and learning to do well, will return into your own bosom. If the erring persist in sin, treat them kindly, and leave them with your heavenly Father. You have delivered your soul; their sin no longer rests upon you; you are not now partaker of their sin. But if they perish, their blood is upon their own head.

Dear friend, an entire transformation must take place in you, or you will be weighed in the balance and found wanting. The church at -----, especially talking women, have a lesson to learn. "If any man [or woman] among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." Many will be weighed in the balance and found wanting in this matter of so great importance. Where are the Christians who walk by this rule? who will take God's part against the evilspeaker? who will please God, and set a watch, a continual watch, before the mouth, and keep the door of the lips? Speak evil of no man. Hear evil of no man. If there be no hearers, there will be no speakers of evil. If anyone speaks evil in your presence, check him. Refuse to hear him, though his manner be ever so soft and his accents mild. He may profess attachment, and yet throw out covert hints and stab the character in the dark.

Resolutely refuse to hear, though the whisperer complains of being burdened till he speak. Burdened indeed! with a cursed secret which separateth very friends. Go, burdened ones, and free yourselves from your burden in God's appointed way. First go tell your brother his fault between you and him alone. If this fail, next take with you one or two friends, and tell him in their presence. If these steps fail, then tell it to the church. Not an unbeliever is to be made acquainted with the slightest particular of the matter. Telling it to the church is the last step to be taken. Publish it not to the enemies of our faith. They have no right to the knowledge of church matters, lest the weakness and errors of Christ's followers be exposed.

Those who are preparing for the coming of Christ should be sober and watch unto prayer, for our adversary, the devil, goeth about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour; whom we are to resist steadfast in the faith. "He that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers."

The writings above are undeniably clear in their counsel on how to treat others.  Is her counsel accurate, inspired, an SDA standard that makes evilspeaking to others a sin?

Is it a safe procedure to use a manner that is condemned by the Spirit of Prophecy to call sin by its right name?  Is it morally right to treat our neighbors in a way other than how Jesus wants us to treat them? 

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Well, here we are!!! When do I get my own world-wide television ministry to go along with the rest of the hypocricy??? I would like a jet, my own personal secretary and a barn full of horses and a cute little filly to go with the new sports car. And I need to be able to do book deals that will net $300,000 annually, minimum!!!  A new house with a tarred driveway and a gate would be nice!!! 4,300 sq feet of living space would be ok, as long as the grandchildren get to live with us!!! But I also need one of those disappearing mortgages from a foundation somewhere!!! I also need complete discretion to hire, fire and ridicule people
regardless of due process. I would clearly need "kingly authority"!!!

Well, Grandma, When do I start???

Problem is it has never been my goal to "wipe out sin" at 3ABN!!! Where did you get such a strange idea??? Getting a bit soft upstais, Grandma? To do that we would have to destroy them all!!! Sounds like a good start but a bit problematic with the civil common law!!! Particulary in a modern era!!!

ANd you have the audacity to challenge Bob's extrapolations? LOOK IN THE MIRROR!!!

My purpose has always been to bring accountability,,,a concept you reject!!! Ideally I would like to see a constituency and a governance elected based on General Conference standards, not the gang of fifteen standards. I would like to see due process for the accused, including the presentation of REAL evidence. I would like to see justice for all, not just the few!!! Would be nice to see the face of adventism adopt a few christian standards in their own lives, in other words, practice what they preach.

WIPE OUT SIN??? Are you daft, my dear???

To pull out specific counsel that addresses a specific situation within a church is contrary to the principles of Matthew 18 and we could go on. YOU are the most egregious in your failure to follow the very clear instructions of part three: TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH!!! YOU, GRANDMA,  ARE ALL MERCY AND NO JUSTICE...a bit out of balance in my BIBLE!!!

Your unbalanced view of mercy and justice is simply un-biblical...shocker, huh?

And shall we end with the premise that Grandma is definitely above reproach!!! She has never called anyone to task in other than a "loving way"!!! If one believes this sales job, then I have the Brooklyn Bridge for sale, complete with toll gates!!! Any takers??? Cheap if you buy by midnight!!!

Love ya Grandma, but your unbalanced view of christianity results in a premise that we all can be saved "IN OUR SINS" and all are above reproach, regardless of how much and how often we fleece the sheep!!! Did you get fleeced Grandma??? Or are you fleecing???

Gailon Arthur Joy

I know, no cookies for me!!! Did you ever notice what the LORD ordered the Israeli's to do...some would call it, dare I say it...ETHNIC CLEANSING...they even eliminated Grandma's, can you imagine that!!!