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[Johann]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2825095663035&set=a.2825095503031.2152047.1128301813&type=1

[Johann]

Jeremiah 2:22

New International Version (NIV)

22 Although you wash yourself with soap
   and use an abundance of cleansing powder,
   the stain of your guilt is still before me,”
            declares the Sovereign LORD.

Jeremiah 2:22

King James Version (KJV)

 22For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

[princessdi]

To directly answer the OP. That is supposed to be how it works.  It is what God did/does for us.  "....in that while we were yet sinners........, right? He sent His Son to die befor all of us here had yet to be born and then to sin.  So, His example is that we love the sinner UNCONDITIONALLY, and hate the sin. For me after this, the discussion is over.

Ok so I looked back and I had already posted int his thread.....several times.......getting old for sure.......Just to let you know that I said previousy stands, Hasting th sin and loving the sinner does not include being abused by the perosn who chooses to sin over and over again. That is not a christian, that is a door mat, codependent, and extremely unhealthy unhealthy.

[christian]

To directly answer the OP. That is supposed to be how it works.  It is what God did/does for us.  "....in that while we were yet sinners........, right? He sent His Son to die befor all of us here had yet to be born and then to sin.  So, His example is that we love the sinner UNCONDITIONALLY, and hate the sin. For me after this, the discussion is over.

Ok so I looked back and I had already posted int his thread.....several times.......getting old for sure.......Just to let you know that I said previousy stands, Hasting th sin and loving the sinner does not include being abused by the perosn who chooses to sin over and over again. That is not a christian, that is a door mat, codependent, and extremely unhealthy unhealthy.

Hello princess. -----We absolutely cannot love the sinner while hating the sin. The sinner and the sin are both the same thing. The sin is simply an extention of the sinner. Only when the sinner stops sinning can we love them. Here is an example: A man is rapping my wife, can I say man I love you but I hate the thing you are doing, absolutely not. Rather I will take a gun and shoot him and chop him into a thousand pieces and scatter his ashes on the fatherest places of the earth. Can I separate the monster from the monster? absolutely not. Sin and sinner are synonymous with each other I can no more separate them than separate the head of a man from his body. In order to love the sinner he must stop sinning and if he does not stop then the transformation is complete and I will hate the sinner along with his inners which is the sin.

[princessdi]

....and for give us our debts as we forgive our debtors..........I know you thought that i would not have a response for that..........LOL!!!  If Christ is our example we HAVE to love the sinner and hate the sin. 

Now, there is also another part to this and that is forgiveness.  We have mistakenly thought that to forgive ALWAYS means to restore.  As in the example of the rape, restoration of a realtioship is not always wise. 

[christian]

....and for give us our debts as we forgive our debtors..........I know you thought that i would not have a response for that..........LOL!!!  If Christ is our example we HAVE to love the sinner and hate the sin. 

Now, there is also another part to this and that is forgiveness.  We have mistakenly thought that to forgive ALWAYS means to restore.  As in the example of the rape, restoration of a realtioship is not always wise. 

I never said I cannot forgive them it is just that I still hate them. Whoever said you cannot forgive someone and still hate them? In the end of time we will be left to our sin and eventually God will not save us. In otherwords there is a limit to the forbearance of God and humankind too. God would say Esau have I hated. In otherwords when passing the forbearance of grace the individual becomes the very essence of sin. You see in order to have sin you must have the action and the trigger to that action is the individual. Sin is a combination of person plus action or physical thought of action, equal sin. For instance if we say thou shalt not commit adultery the words mean nothing, they in and of themselves are not sin. In order for there to be sin you must have a sinner, thus making the sinner part and parcial of the sin itself. Thus we must conclude that we cannot love the sinner and hate sin for they are one in the same.

[Murcielago]

Christian, you could be right about this, but everyone who I love is a sinner. There is not one person who I love who doesn't sin. If we are supposed to hate sinners because of their sins, then I can't expect to be loved, and I shouldn't love anyone. In fact, love should not exist in relation to humans at all. Yet, I can't help but love. I'll tell you right up front that I sin and I am a sinner, so I suppose you hate me. And since you, as a human, are a sinner, I guess I am obligated to hate you, but I don't. Lol.

Btw, here is a quote that makes me question the premise that we are to hate sinners.

Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

[christian]

Christian, you could be right about this, but everyone who I love is a sinner. There is not one person who I love who doesn't sin. If we are supposed to hate sinners because of their sins, then I can't expect to be loved, and I shouldn't love anyone. In fact, love should not exist in relation to humans at all. Yet, I can't help but love. I'll tell you right up front that I sin and I am a sinner, so I suppose you hate me. And since you, as a human, are a sinner, I guess I am obligated to hate you, but I don't. Lol.

Btw, here is a quote that makes me question the premise that we are to hate sinners.

Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Good point Murc. I can remember the old soul song sang many years ago, FIRST YOU LOVE ME THEN YOU HATE ME THATS A GAME FOR FOOL. The song was meant to stress the absolute ups and downs of relationships. However, we are talking about someone we know is actually trespassing against us, can we love them? I also differentiate between like and love. Liking someone is a far cry from actually loving someone. Which brings me to another thought, I have a lot of people that really like me but can think of very few that come close to what I would call love. LOL, I guess they are having a hard time separating the sin from the sinner. "But GOD shows his love for us in that while we are still sinners, Christ died for us." I have no problem with the fact that God loves us even though we are sinners. My problem is with the people who say they love me or humanity and really don't.

[princessdi]

Christian, if Christ is our example, we cannot hate the sinner.  God did all He did after man sinned.  he could hav destroyed us and started all over until someone finally made the right decision, but He didn't.  instead he found a way of escape for us from sin, His beloved children.  i with Murcielago, everyon eI love is a sinner.  woule you hate your own child? Mother? Father? Sibling?

[Johann]

Christian, if Christ is our example, we cannot hate the sinner.  God did all He did after man sinned.  he could hav destroyed us and started all over until someone finally made the right decision, but He didn't.  instead he found a way of escape for us from sin, His beloved children.  i with Murcielago, everyon eI love is a sinner.  woule you hate your own child? Mother? Father? Sibling?

You remind me of my sins!!! I am getting far behind in wishing friends a Happy Birthday!

[christian]

Christian, if Christ is our example, we cannot hate the sinner.  God did all He did after man sinned.  he could hav destroyed us and started all over until someone finally made the right decision, but He didn't.  instead he found a way of escape for us from sin, His beloved children.  i with Murcielago, everyon eI love is a sinner.  woule you hate your own child? Mother? Father? Sibling?

Would you hate you own child, Hmmm let me think about that one for a moment. Would you hate your Mother, Father, Sibling? Hmmm let me think real hard about that one and I will let you know. Anyway, you ask the wrong question, I am talking about really loving someone. I really think the word love is taken way, way out of proportion. I personally don't think most of us really know what love is. As I get older I realize that most of us do not know true love or how to express love. We have a strong like for people and most of that is attached to how much can we gain from our association with the individual. But let someone become sick for some time and we quickly see that we never really love that person. Or let someone who was well off become poor and watch the utter disregard of that person. We as Christian don't seem to understand the difference between the word of God and the Love of God. We talk love and quote the bible but when the true metal of love is needed it is very, very rarely found. By in large our supposed love is very conditional and is only what I would call the human love but definitely not the Godly love.

[princessdi]

Well, Christian, maybe it's because I have experienced many blessings sent by God through people around me, friends, family. So while I so see what you are talking about, I chose to view the other side.  you see, It started with my parents who were foster parents who fostered so many children, i can't even count.  They also adopted.  It extends to my extended family who accepts children, fostered, adopted, step as their own and all of those labels are dropped....not only for the time they are with us, but should they be disconnected from our family, forever. That extends to extraordinary friends who have blessed me and my family with great kindness and generosity. now, I have tried to pay forward as much as I can.  My sister and I were foster parents to two wonderful girls for six years until they were able to go home to their family.  I haven't even mentioned my church family...........as i said, I choose to focus on the other side of the coin.