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[inga]

Bonnie, I cannot begin to imagine what your family had to go through!

I applaud you and your family for having the determination not to let things rest without exposing the perpretators.

There are other areas in which our church is often less kind/just than the world --"not rehiring" employees, for instance. In my own conference I know of former Adventist teachers who built a distinguished career after not being "rehired" in an Adventist institution. In my own case, I discovered the reason the conference education secretary asked impossible things of me (hired 3 weeks before the beginning of the school year) was that the job had already been promised to someone else (related to conference staff) for the following year. So he had to find reasons not to "rehire" me. The chairman of the school board apologized to me later, after the results of the provincial government examinations for Grade 12 came out. (I had been painted as an incompetent teacher, but the exam results were significantly higher than they had been for years previously. I admit that felt good.)

In my situation, I saw the problem that others had seen. Accusations/evaluations are made, and a committee decides *without* being open with the employee or even interviewing the employee. It's so easy to abuse such a closed system. By contrast, in "the world," it is actually illegal to fire someone without demonstrating good cause. I saw that our whole Adventist proceduraly system of hiring and firing needed reformation (I knew of other incidents), but I also saw that I wasn't spiritually strong enough to survive being part of such a campaign.

I pray that the Lord will give you peace regarding this matter, even while you continue to remain sensitive to the needs of others. That is only possible by the power of the Holy Spirit, I'm sure.

Those in administrative positions who follow the Pharasaical course of making things "look good" will eventually reap the rewards of their actions. When it comes down to it, it is a lack of faith that God will look after the consequences if they do the right thing. While it may look different on the surface, it is not qualitatively different from the morality of the thief or embezzler. God sees past the suits and ties into the hearts of church officials in high places. Unless they repent, they will some day hear those awful words, "I know you not."

[Ozzie]

What kind of a denomination do we belong to? I am not questioning SDA doctrine, but an organization.
One where aggressive lawsuits are recommended and I agree is needed to get their attention and make any kind of change. Lawsuits only teach them they may suffer consequences for not doing the right thing.
It doesn't change the heart.
I don't care that this is something that plagues all denominations, we claim to be different. Nor do the typical pat answers of it is an evil world cut it.
Secular businesses live in the same evil world and they seem to see the importance of stopping abusive behavior. We hide behind the seperation of church and state, condemn those that would dare bring dishonor on the church by speaking out.

I have to agree with Bonnie here. I was also with her in SNT for some considerable time, but hitting one's head up against a brick wall and seeing family and other victims crumble around us, is very draining and soul-destroying. I admire Bonnie that she and her family have been able to 'hang in there'. Believe me, the tactics that are used to destroy those who stand for truth, are legion, but seem to follow a pattern. Even one's home is not safe from intrusion, in one way or another.

It's all about sweeping it under the carpet; don't let the church get a bad name; too bad about the victim (they should forgive and forget, as if one could forget those terrible abuses), blame the victim (they MUST have encouraged the perpetrater etc - ABSOLUTE GARBAGE).

There will be a day of reckoning in the judgement day, but how many people will there be whose lives on this earth have been ruined, because of those in positions of power, denying the victims any rights? I'd better stop right there, or there will be a long essay following.

Sit with a victim and listen to them. REALLY LISTEN. I don't know how many of these dear people can get up and face each day. It's no wonder many of them try to blot it all out with drug and alcohol and then further, have the 'labelling' of righteous (sic) Christian people, to deal with. If anyone thinks they know what all this must be like, just talk to and listen to victims who are trying to deal with life, after being treated as liars, promiscuous and trouble makers, by those in authority.  

[Johann]

Unfortunately I am well acquainted with a case where victims of sexual abuse could not find any help within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Years too late they found some help through a parson of another denomination. We must not continue sweeping such crimes under the rug as if it does not matter.

What did our Saviour and His Word say about such conditions in the last days?

[bonnie]

Unfortunately I am well acquainted with a case where victims of sexual abuse could not find any help within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Years too late they found some help through a parson of another denomination. We must not continue sweeping such crimes under the rug as if it does not matter.

What did our Saviour and His Word say about such conditions in the last days?

I appreciate what you have all said. I know Ozzie knows exactly what I am talking about. Most hear but do not listen.
I have read here where it seems that there are those trying to change things at 3ABN by new people. 3ABN is 3ABN and will remain so as long as there is not full recognition and responsibility taken by all involved or they are removed. This is exactly what happens in cases abuse that is allowed/ignored and covered. Move the guilty, fire the one accused when there is no choice and claim a change has been made. The only change has been a face.
I am sure this is far from easy for Mr. joy and Bob Pickle and they have those that wish they would just go away, but at least there is some support and desire to get at the truth and stop the abuses.
I don't think this would be happening if this were not an independent ministry. If this were dealing with the administration of a conference or higher that behaved in this manner, I doubt seriously if there would be the support there is.

I am glad there is, I am glad there is support for LS,however how many would support a victim not well known  Just Jane Doe sitting in the back pew that had been abused in this manner or  worse, the way some victims are. Physical,up close and personal abuse. The pastor's wife in our situation ended up in a woman's shelter with her child.
Until that happens and I doubt it will, stories like Atlantic union will continue. Cause commotion for a while and then poof, everyone forgets ,best to move on anyway.
As for turning to another denomination for help, we have been there as well. The Luthren church stepped in and helped my grnadchildren when ours refused.

[bonnie]

Bonnie, I cannot begin to imagine what your family had to go through!

I applaud you and your family for having the determination not to let things rest without exposing the perpretators.

There are other areas in which our church is often less kind/just than the world --"not rehiring" employees, for instance. In my own conference I know of former Adventist teachers who built a distinguished career after not being "rehired" in an Adventist institution. In my own case, I discovered the reason the conference education secretary asked impossible things of me (hired 3 weeks before the beginning of the school year) was that the job had already been promised to someone else (related to conference staff) for the following year. So he had to find reasons not to "rehire" me. The chairman of the school board apologized to me later, after the results of the provincial government examinations for Grade 12 came out. (I had been painted as an incompetent teacher, but the exam results were significantly higher than they had been for years previously. I admit that felt good.)

In my situation, I saw the problem that others had seen. Accusations/evaluations are made, and a committee decides *without* being open with the employee or even interviewing the employee. It's so easy to abuse such a closed system. By contrast, in "the world," it is actually illegal to fire someone without demonstrating good cause. I saw that our whole Adventist proceduraly system of hiring and firing needed reformation (I knew of other incidents), but I also saw that I wasn't spiritually strong enough to survive being part of such a campaign.

I pray that the Lord will give you peace regarding this matter, even while you continue to remain sensitive to the needs of others. That is only possible by the power of the Holy Spirit, I'm sure.

Those in administrative positions who follow the Pharasaical course of making things "look good" will eventually reap the rewards of their actions. When it comes down to it, it is a lack of faith that God will look after the consequences if they do the right thing. While it may look different on the surface, it is not qualitatively different from the morality of the thief or embezzler. God sees past the suits and ties into the hearts of church officials in high places. Unless they repent, they will some day hear those awful words, "I know you not."

Your story is all part of the whole problem of abuse.Goes right to the administration of our denomination. Once it is tolerated and accepted,it isn't one form of abuse. Abuse of power is just that. And it is tolerated from the top down

If the administration did not practise abusive forms of power, and did not tolerate it well, sometimes encouraging, the employees that did so would not last long, no matter what form the abuse took

[Ozzie]

Your story is all part of the whole problem of abuse.Goes right to the administration of our denomination. Once it is tolerated and accepted,it isn't one form of abuse. Abuse of power is just that. And it is tolerated from the top down

If the administration did not practise abusive forms of power, and did not tolerate it well, sometimes encouraging, the employees that did so would not last long, no matter what form the abuse took

Unfortunately, I do not see the Admin of our denomination at the top echelons, changing in my lifetime. However, I am aware of cases in Australia, where those cases were handled with care for the victim, with the appropriate legal intervention and anything else that was needed or should have been attended to, was put in place. I recognise that these occasions were the exception to the rule, but I guess that CHANGE has to start somewhere. There were leaders with integrity who were prepared to act, as soon as they were aware of it, and I can only thank God for that.

However, I have spoken with victims and their families elsewhere and it's been more of the same ole same thing. Sweep it under the carpet, blame the victim and intimidate them in order to protect 'the good name of the Church'. No wonder there are so many missing members over the years. While they were shamed into submission, escape out the back door was the only option available to them.

I understand what you're saying Bonnie about whether this was a case other than with 3abn, would people be taking up the cause? Maybe, (hopefully), this particular case may create awareness within our Church, so that people are not led so blindly up the garden path, and people may question behaviours and leaders as they've never done so before. Education and exposure is a good way to start, to let Adventist see that they (and others), cannot have abuse covered up. Maybe, people will start looking for accountability from the top down, and might not be so ready to keep the lid on abuse (or am I being overly optimistic today?). Let us continue to support and encourage Gailon and Bob, as they open more of the Pandora's box day after day.

[bonnie]

I hope the situtation with 3 ABN has that effect. I am glad there are those that could call a spade a spade and take action. I think LS does deserve support. I know a little about what Bob Pickle and Mr. Joy have/are facing. I am not making slight of that. More than anything I wish I had the funds to make a significent contribution.


 I just wish this was a action that could take over the mentality of the pew sitters for awhile in general.

Maybe we just haven't heard, but where are the alumni and parents of the current students of Atlantic Union. If I were a parent my tution would be withdrawn until some explainations were forthcoming, not years down the road when they finally decide to settle..As alumni all funds would be cut off till I received the same information.
Parents and alumni have the ability to rattle this cage pretty effectively and I doubt it will happen. A few words of disbelief and then "Let christ Handle It When He Comes" is likely what you will hear.

[Johann]

When my wife came back home this morning she felt quite uneasy. In a parking lot she had come rather close to a parked jeep. An unseen bar or something? She tried to find the owner of the jeep, so she jotted down the license number. Back home she called the registry and the name and address was provided.

- Shall we try to find the phone number? I suggested.
- No, I want to go there. I want to see that person face to face.

It turned out to be a smiling, beautiful young lady.

- Let's take a look, she suggested. And then she said she had driven into a signpost recently, which meant that section had to be replaced, and she was sure that little scratch would be taken care of at the same time.

Ida stopped by a daughter on her way home. When the son-in-law saw the minor damage to our car, he promised to take care of that. And we know he is able to do just that.

When we have done something there is but one way of handling it, and that starts with facing it. Yes, the damage will be covered up on the cars, but how?

Other issues have to be met face on too. Trying to cover them up by blaming others is not the solution. And then covering up all the blunders made in previous cover-ups just make it worse. This is how Danny Shelton is attempting to get away, and this does not work among Christian people in the long run.

Gailon Arthur was a staunch supporter of 3ABN and Danny Shelton until he discovered this cover-up. I think he tried to reason, he tried to get the matters settled and reaching a solution. Then Bob came to his aid with his thorough research.

I cannot say if I would have done all the things they have done exactly the same way they have done it, but at least they have demonstrated their willingness to help uncover things that need to be cleansed in the Church before Jesus returns. Jesus is looking for purity among His people, and filth needs to be eradicated and covered up by His blood. This what the whole thing is about.

If Danny Shelton and his cronies had handled this issue in a Christian way right from the beginning, the thing had been dealt with face to face with no cover-ups. And during these four years there have been one cover-up after another. I see the last and the worst is this attempt to squash the truth by spending millions of dollars on a court case. So many guilty people have escaped "punishment" for their deeds by hiring the most efficient lawyers, so why not Danny Shelton?

[Jodi]

If Danny had handled this situation with Linda in a Christian way, (even if Linda were guilty as charged, and I certainly do not believe she was guilty at all), he would have put his arms around her and forgiven her and protected her from any and all publicity!  No one would have known and the marriage could be intact today, with Linda still doing the work she loved at 3ABN.  But, in my opinion, Danny Shelton had another agenda already in place and Linda just wasn't part of his plan ~ and the rest is history.  I don't listen to 3ABN any more as I realize it is not about "mending broken people" as they proclaim.

[Johann]

If Danny had handled this situation with Linda in a Christian way, (even if Linda were guilty as charged, and I certainly do not believe she was guilty at all), he would have put his arms around her and forgiven her and protected her from any and all publicity!  No one would have known and the marriage could be intact today, with Linda still doing the work she loved at 3ABN.  But, in my opinion, Danny Shelton had another agenda already in place and Linda just wasn't part of his plan ~ and the rest is history.  I don't listen to 3ABN any more as I realize it is not about "mending broken people" as they proclaim.

Thank you, Jodi. Right at the beginning I wrote to Danny and suggested he do what you say here, and I made the same suggestion to Walt. From their reaction it seemed like they did not care for my suggestion.

[Daryl Fawcett]

This topic is not particularly about Danny, Linda, and 3ABN, therefore, let us try and not go too far in that direction in this topic.

[Johann]

I wonder when we will hear more about that court case?

[Ozzie]

I hope the situtation with 3 ABN has that effect. I am glad there are those that could call a spade a spade and take action. I think LS does deserve support. I know a little about what Bob Pickle and Mr. Joy have/are facing. I am not making slight of that. More than anything I wish I had the funds to make a significant contribution.

Likewise Bonnie, I understand only too well how families can be bankrupted physically, financially, emotionally and even in regard to family relationships, when one chooses to go with their conscience, rather than bow to pressure from those who have the money and the power.

I would dearly love to financially support Mr Joy and Mr Pickle, but my husband and I have already paid a price that has left us to reply on a very small Government pension in our retirement. Not the way one expects their working life to end, but would I do the same again, given the same set of circumstances? Yes. Indeed I would. One still has to live with their conscience and do what they believe to be right.

I would appeal to people to support Gailon and Bob all hey can. Surely, if there are bank rolls out there to support DS and 3abn, there must also be people who can support Joy and Pickle.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Entrenched institutionalists tend to work hard at crucifying the messengers, rather than looking at the message and determining if there is any real truth to the issue. This is excatly what we have dealt with at 3ABN and within the denomination. It is a common issue and is why so many cases end up in the realm of juris prudence rather than conciliation. And even why so many resort to public disclosure...there is simply no real forum within the denomination to facilitate conciliation.

Gailon Arthur Joy

[Johann]

Entrenched institutionalists tend to work hard at crucifying the messengers, rather than looking at the message and determining if there is any real truth to the issue. This is excatly what we have dealt with at 3ABN and within the denomination. It is a common issue and is why so many cases end up in the realm of juris prudence rather than conciliation. And even why so many resort to public disclosure...there is simply no real forum within the denomination to facilitate conciliation.

Gailon Arthur Joy

Some years ago they started used confrontation where victims and and the offender had to meet. A service station burglar was forced to meet the young girl he demanded the money from at gunpoint. It was quite a revelation to him to discover what that girl had to suffer. He was under the impression he was only confiscating some funds from the wealthy insurance company and nobody would get hurt.

Could it be a similar principle where some conciliator helps the parties understand what really was at stake. How much Linda had to suffer because her husband wanted a younger model? Or perhaps also where Danny gets to "demonstrate" to what degree his ego was hurting?