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[SDAminister]

I think we already had that battle with Elder Ford, et al? I know Glacier View is held in low esteam on the "LEFT COAST" but never the less, it has soundly defined the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. All others are not Seventh-day Adventist doctrine and represent apostacy, a sign of the times, I suppose.

Gailon Arthur Joy

Interesting comment in bold above . . . were you there? Were you involved in the discussion/debate? Were you even in the the general Glacier View area when that occurred? If not then why the inclusive pronoun "we"? I am going to guess you were not.

anyman,
Why does it matter if Gailon wasn't near Glacier View?
Neither was I at/near Glacier View, but the battle for truth against the heresies of Desmond Ford (Sorry Gailon, he ain't no "Elder" anymore), was and is waged by many who weren't there. Perhaps the greatest riposte against Fordian theology was made by Pastor David Lin, who lived 10,000 miles away from Glacier View. His book "China Letters" makes short work of the shallow theology and even shallower thinking of the man who sailed a phantom ship far larger than the one D.M. Canright helmed a century ago. Poor Ford, couldn't even get out of the way of his own arguments! Unfortunately, Ford's acolytes still haunt many SDA churches today; but fortunately most younger, Bible-thinking people see through their old saws and are more interested in victorious SDA living.
But it all makes one wonder, is there something in the water in Australia? Another mega-heretic from down under, by the name of Robert Brinsmead, sent his brand of "another gospel" {2 Cor 11:4} to the US where it split my old church. May God have mercy.

So, anyman, what role did you play in helping the SDA church oust the impostor Ford from amongst our midst?
SDAminister

 

[Emma]

[Neither was I at/near Glacier View, but the battle for truth against the heresies of Desmond Ford (Sorry Gailon, he ain't no "Elder" anymore), was and is waged by many who
But it all makes one wonder, is there something in the water in Australia? Another mega-heretic from down under, by the name of Robert Brinsmead, sent his brand of "another gospel" {2 Cor 11:4} to the US where it split my old church. May God have mercy.

So, anyman, what role did you play in helping the SDA church oust the impostor Ford from amongst our midst?
SDAminister

 

For the record "the imposter" Dr Ford is still a member of the SDA church, as far as I know, and lives in Queensland.

And I think you might have left out some of the Australian influence in the Branch Davidians in your category of megaheretics from Down Under.

In the past I have listened to Dr Ford speak, on various occasions, and while I do not necessarily agree with all he believes, I never heard him speak of more conservative
members of the church with the vitriol some with other view points, used.

It would be a good thing if those who believe they have "The Truth'" could show "victorious SDA living".

For the record also, I am a relatively conservative SDA - by Australian standards anyway.

[GrandmaNettie]

Amen, Emma.

IMO, vitriol spouted against any other child of God is a far worse heresy than Ford's or Brinsmead's theology.  There is a correct way to confront error and there is the adversary's way.

[Bob Pickle]

What would have been beneficial to Ford and many others, I think, is to put more effort in finding answers to questions, answers that support what we believe rather than answers that tear it down.

For example, I recall Dr. Ford saying something about "within the veil" in Hebrews having to correspond to a particular phrase in the LXX, and thus it had to mean "Most Holy Place" in Hebrews. But when I tried to check that out, it appeared to me that the Greek of Hebrews 6:19 corresponded more closely to that of the LXX of Num. 3:26, which to me definitely is talking about within the first veil rather than within the second veil.

We tend to find what we are looking for, and if we aren't looking for something, we are unlikely to find what is really there.

[GrandmaNettie]

Here is a little Biblical support for Emma's post as well as the formula for leading a victorious life, SDA or otherwise.

Matthew 22:34 - 40:

34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


1 Corinthians 13 (New International Version)

 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love

[Emma]

Thank you Grandma.

All I was asking for was Christian courtesy in discussing others - I have never been a 'follower' of Dr Ford but I have gained some
useful insights in hearing him speak. 

[SDAminister]

[Neither was I at/near Glacier View, but the battle for truth against the heresies of Desmond Ford (Sorry Gailon, he ain't no "Elder" anymore), was and is waged by many who
But it all makes one wonder, is there something in the water in Australia? Another mega-heretic from down under, by the name of Robert Brinsmead, sent his brand of "another gospel" {2 Cor 11:4} to the US where it split my old church. May God have mercy.

So, anyman, what role did you play in helping the SDA church oust the impostor Ford from amongst our midst?
SDAminister

 

For the record "the imposter" Dr Ford is still a member of the SDA church, as far as I know, and lives in Queensland.

My point exactly. Posing as an SDA but not believing in at least two of the central pillars of our faith (the Sanctuary and the Spirit of Prophecy) makes one out to be a fraud, an imposter. But mind you, I'm glad we live in the merciful times that we do now. I am a sinner. But I have never purposed to destroy the foundations of the SDA faith. What Ford has done over the years would have gotten him, in Biblical times, stoned outside the camp or run through with a javelin for denying the truth, preaching falsehoods, and teaching others the same. He ought to be grateful the Lord has stayed His hand of judgment. I know I am.

But why did you bold the "Dr" when you referred to Ford? What is your intent? To show that he has a couple of doctorate degrees from worldly universities? That he gained significant knowledge from the Gods of Ekron to help him in his ministry?

And BTW, he was ousted. He was defrocked, lost his teaching jobs, and was forbidden to speak at any of our churches. The fact that some are sympathetic to his cause in recent years like this recent meeting at an SDA church in Australia only support the prophecies given by EGW, that Satan will try to put as many unconverted people into the church as is possible in order to destroy it.

And BTW again, Ford's sloppy agape view of the grace of God turns that grace into a burden because he doesn't believe it can bring about victorious living. The church that holds his membership should wake up. To countenance Ford's heresies and antics while still allowing membership in God's remnant church now puts blood on their hands as well. Haven't enough people been put in perdition's way by this man? Do we need to add more?

SDAminister

[Emma]

How many current SDA ministers have doctorates (in theology related areas) from "worldly" universities?   Dr Ford gained his first doctorate in 1961 (from Manchester), when I would imagine there were not so many Adventist institutions where it was possible to gain the qualification.  I was merely trying to speak the truth in Christian courtesy, given the tenor of previous comments.

Whether or not he believes in victorious Christian living I am not sufficiently a theologian to debate - I do know I have only seen him behave as a Christian gentleman.

I know many in Australia - including  ministers -  found the whole 'defrocking' at the end of the Glacier View conference to have been rather less than transparently conducted  but that is water under the bridge now.

I had the impression he was a Sabbath School teacher in California for some years after the defrocking, but I could have that wrong.   He has certainly spoken in some Adventist churches since you think he was banned from doing so. 

But my concern is not particularly to defend Dr Ford.  He would not even know who I am.   

I am unaware of which church or recent meeting to which you refer, I have not heard his coming to my State for some years.  He has always had sympathisers, including some who have remained pillars of the church here and who have also been active in the church in N America.   I am quite unaware of any recent surge in that sympathy, but maybe you know more about that than I.


I am extremely grateful that God and not man will be my Judge.

[SDAminister]

How many current SDA ministers have doctorates (in theology related areas) from "worldly" universities?   

Too many.

[Emma]

How many current SDA ministers have doctorates (in theology related areas) from "worldly" universities?   

Too many.

So the SDA church and its institutions have all that is worth knowing in this field?

[Bob Pickle]

The Waldensians attended outside institutions ... for a distinct purpose. Ellen White advocated that we do the same today ... even while acknowledging that it carries definite risks.

Regarding Dr. Ford, a fellow from down under sent out a newsletter a few years back claiming that Ford was confronted by a non-Adventist creationist over evolutionary views. Would you know anything about that, Emma?

[Emma]

There was an arranged debate several years ago between Dr Ford and an evening talkback radio host in Sydney, a man called (?John) Wiltshire.

I did not attend or hear any recordings, according to the report I heard Mr Wiltshire was deemed to have won the debate, for whatever that was worth.

From memory it was held under the auspices of a Protestant group, possibly the Wesley Mission/Uniting Church, but I am not sure about that.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Amen, Emma.

IMO, vitriol spouted against any other child of God is a far worse heresy than Ford's or Brinsmead's theology.  There is a correct way to confront error and there is the adversary's way.

And that has always been the question, hasn't it Grandma: Are you "correct" or the "adversary"? I trust you know where I put you. In my book, your sanctimonious pretentions are without standing. Anyone who can never find the TRUTH, is an adversary to TRUTH.

Especially when they have had four years and the all important relationship!!! Why you should have been able to get down on your knees, put the fleece by the front door and check it in the morning to determine it's moisture content. Then enlightened us with the TRUTH. Since that clearly has not happened, I re-assert:

Anyone who can never find the TRUTH, is an adversary to TRUTH.

Gailon Arthur Joy

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

How many current SDA ministers have doctorates (in theology related areas) from "worldly" universities?   

Too many.

And how many SDA's are imposters? And remember, that does not include LAODICEANS, or does it?

Gailon Arthur Joy

[SDAminister]

How many current SDA ministers have doctorates (in theology related areas) from "worldly" universities?   

Too many.

So the SDA church and its institutions have all that is worth knowing in this field?

It's all relative. Could an average Joe from off the street learn something worth knowing by attending a worldly university to study theology. Sure. Is this what SDA's are called to do, to go and learn about God at an institution or church that is based upon the fallen philosophy of Babylon? Categorically--NO! You are familiar with the SDA position on this, aren't you? If you've got the Ellen White CD ROM, I can send you the references, or links to them, if you don't.

But who knows, the best was to study God (theology) just might be to talk a walk in the woods every day to commune and pray with the one who made it all.