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[reddogs]

What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and where does it come from?

Here are some of the doctrines that are considered unbiblical teachings.
1. The veneration of angels and dead saints
2. The Mass
3. The veneration of Mary and praying to her
4. The doctine of Purgatory
5. The transference of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the first day of the week
6. Latin being the official language of prayer and worship
7. The establishment of the position of Pope
8. Worship or veneration of relics, images, statues, or idols
9. Canonization of dead saints
10. Celibacy of the clergy (though I understand this may have changed)
11. The use of the rosary
12. The sale of Indulgences
13. Transubstantiation
14. Confessing of sin to priests and the belief that priests can forgive sin
15. Adoration of the wafer
16. The Scapular (though I don't know if this practice continues)
17. The 7 Sacraments
18. The declaration that tradition is of equal authority as the Bible
19. Papal Infallibility
20. Infant baptism



Let us therefore briefly list the main doctrines challenged by the reformers and reconfirmed by Rome during the Council of Trent. This Council was called by Pope Paul III between 1545-1563 and met in three sessions where Protestants were present during the second meeting.

DOCTRINES REAFFIRMED: transubstantiation, justification by faith and works, the medieval mass was upheld, the seven sacraments were confirmed, celibacy was maintained, the doctrine of purgatory was maintained, indulgences were reaffirmed, papal power was increased by giving the pope the authority to enforce the decrees of the Council and requiring church officials to promise him obedience.

Transubstantiation is the doctrine, which claims that Jesus is offered every time the mass is held:

"Marvellous dignity of the priests, in their hands as in the womb of the blessed virgin Mary the Son of God becomes incarnate. Behold, the power of the priest! The tongue of the priest makes God from a morsel of bread, it is more than creating the world.
Canon 1: If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or a figure or force, let him be anathema."

The Bible, however clearly states:
Because by one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy.Hebrews 10:14 NIV
Grace can only be sought in the merits of Christ and sacraments cannot contribute to one’s salvation.

If by one sacrifice Christ justifies the sinner who comes to Him in repentance, then it also follows that the doctrine of purgatory has no Biblical basis. In fact, Catholic doctrine completely negates the ministry of Christ and replaces it with salvation by the system. The Pope becomes the supreme leader, the priest becomes the one who forgives transgression and Mary becomes the mediator between man and God.

The Catholic Church has elevated Mary to the level of mediator, advocate and co-redeemer of man in clear and direct contradiction of the Scriptures. In 1854, Pope Pius IX declared Mary ‘immaculate’, and in 1951, Pope Pius XII defined and enforced the doctrine of the Bodily Assumption of Mary, thus placing Mary in a position to act as mediator and supporting the long list of claims made by Catholic saints over time.

Statements on Mary by Catholic saints:
..."He falls and is lost who has not recourse to Mary. Mary is called the gate of heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her. The way to salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary. The salvation of all depends on their being favoured and protected by Mary. He who is protected by Mary will be saved: he who is not will be lost. Our salvation depends on thee. God will not save us without the intercession of Mary."

Mary takes the place of Jesus in Catholic teaching. Instead of the faithful looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of their faith, they look to Mary. In Mary they find access to God, in her the Church is all holy, in her they learn obedience to God and the list goes on and on. Not one of these doctrines can be supported by Scripture, in fact, the Scriptures teach the exact opposite. Mary takes the place of God and she herself is treated like a goddess.

Article 829 of The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

"But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary: in her, the Church is already the “all-holy."
Mary – Eschatological Icon of the Church. Article 972, The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own “pilgrimage of faith”, and with her she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There “in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity,”“in the communion of all the saints,” the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother. In the meantime the Mother, in the glory, which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and the beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth, until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God. "
The title Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate in particular should raise serious objections as it so obviously contradicts the plainest teachings of Scripture. The Bible clearly teaches that there is but one Redeemer, Mediator and Advocate for the people of God, the man Christ Jesus.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1John 2:1

Yet, the Catholic Church is willing to accept Mary in the place of Jesus Christ thus depriving Christ of His mediatorial role. Even more surprising is the willingness of the Catholic Church to carry the teaching on Mary to the extreme and to acknowledge Mary as goddess and part of the Godhead.

Roman Catholic teachings seem determined to minimize the role of Jesus in the salvation of souls and at best to place Him on a par with any of the founders of the religious systems of the world. Either Jesus is God, and as such the only one in heaven and earth that can save us, or He is not. Compromise on this issue is impossible no matter how much one bends the rules to suit the aspirations of all groups.

The Bible clearly states that:
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

Lets take a look at confessing of sin to priests and the belief that priests can forgive sin...

Rome says we should confess our sins to priests, yet the Word doesn't teach this. James wrote, "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed." James 5:16 (KJV). This is not the same as confessing sins to a priest, but rather means that we should confess our faults to each other, and pray for each other. David wrote, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord, and You forgave the iniquity of my sin." Ps. 32:5. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Thus we should confess our sins to God who alone can forgive. The practice of confessing one's sins to another sinner is not only degrading to the confessor, but harmful to the hearer. Paul said "it is shameful even to speak" of certain sins. Eph. 5:12. If we sin against someone, we should make it right with them, but otherwise, we should not confess our sins to another sinner. If we do, we are planting the seeds of evil in another mind. Paul wrote, "Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers." Eph. 4:29. If we confess our sins to a priest, we are disobeying this Word, and will only impart evil "to the hearers." We should confess our sins to Jesus Christ! He can handle it, and He will forgive us.

And here is what Christ said on calling them a spiritual 'Father'..

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven

Some of these beliefs clearly seem to be coming from paganism or beliefs related to it and changed and incorporated to 'Christianize' it enough to allow it to be incorporated as a Christian belief, what are your thoughts...?

[Johann]

In a sense there is not much point in discussing such false doctrines with a Roman Catholic because their church does not accept Scripture as the only authority of faith. To them tradition and the pronouncement of an infallible pope are just as important. So where do we start?

[reddogs]

In a sense there is not much point in discussing such false doctrines with a Roman Catholic because their church does not accept Scripture as the only authority of faith. To them tradition and the pronouncement of an infallible pope are just as important. So where do we start?

But can we show them what beliefs/doctrine that they call from tradition are really from paganism much like how the pagan sun worship is tied to worship on Sunday...

[Johann]

There are hardly two Roman Catholics completely alike. Much depends on their background. Some might not agree with you that any of their doctrines come from paganism. YUou see the doctrines of the early Christian Church developed gradually. What we know as paganism was not just "evil" but often a set of good rules for human behavior. Pagans often did their best to show justice and kindness, and they often tried to live on a high level of "holy" life. They lived devout lives to satisfy their gods and show others how "good" they were.

Just as an example some pagan priests did not marry because they wanted to devote their lives fully to their religious tasks. Soe pagans pointed to this and said, "See how holy our priests are. Your priests are not as holy as ours."

This seemed a challenge to the Christians. They met the challenge by saying, "We can do better than that." And then they got the approval of their bishops and the pope, and the new doctrines became valid in the new Christian Church. So they may say this did not come from the pagans, but the doctriens developed in order to show the pagans that Christianity is superior.

Reformers like Martin Luther discovered the fallacy in this, and he proclaimed the doctrine of justification  by faith alone and not by works.

Ellen White approvede a similar proclamation by Waggoner and Jones, and she stated this is the Advent Message.  So in many cases it is much better to proclaim the Advent Messsage than to point out the weaknesses in the Roman Catholic system. Only Christ saves, and not adherence to sanctifying devises.

[Habanero]

That aside, it is difficult for me to wrap my mind around this. We take issue with the Catholic church for not basing their doctrine and faith soley on the Bible, yet we don't either. We base much of our doctrine and virtually all of our interpretation of the Bible on the writings of Ellen White, and a large segment of our church, the ASI/OCI members base much of life and doctrine on tradition, which we attack Catholicism for doing. Also, many Adventists view Ellen White and her pronouncements as infallible, yet we use it against the Catholics that they view their Pope in a manner similar to which we view EGW.

Then there is the matter of the Bible as we know it being an invention of the Catholic Church. Our Bible was put together by the Council of Nicea upon the order of Emperor Constantine the Great. We claim to base our faith on a Catholic book, yet traditional Adventist doctrine and the bulk of Adventist evangelism claims that the organization that gave us the Bible is the anti-christ that their book tells us about, and we accuse them of many false beliefs that are very similar to our own.

[reddogs]

That aside, it is difficult for me to wrap my mind around this. We take issue with the Catholic church for not basing their doctrine and faith soley on the Bible, yet we don't either. We base much of our doctrine and virtually all of our interpretation of the Bible on the writings of Ellen White, and a large segment of our church, the ASI/OCI members base much of life and doctrine on tradition, which we attack Catholicism for doing. Also, many Adventists view Ellen White and her pronouncements as infallible, yet we use it against the Catholics that they view their Pope in a manner similar to which we view EGW.

Then there is the matter of the Bible as we know it being an invention of the Catholic Church. Our Bible was put together by the Council of Nicea upon the order of Emperor Constantine the Great. We claim to base our faith on a Catholic book, yet traditional Adventist doctrine and the bulk of Adventist evangelism claims that the organization that gave us the Bible is the anti-christ that their book tells us about, and we accuse them of many false beliefs that are very similar to our own.

Who are the ASI/OCI?

Well in my opinion, 'Infallible' when it comes to man should not be applied, and Bible should always come first even in interpretation but we have to allow the Holy Spirit to guide us and the Law and the Prophets to validate....

[Habanero]

ASI/OCI are Adventist umbrella organizations with many sub-entities all over the world. ASI-Adventist Laymen's Serivces and Industries. OCI-Outpost Centers International.

Just recently a religious Muslim council in Africa found a woman guilty of adultery. They dug a hole in the ground and the elders of the community and many of the town people came out and surrounded the hole. The drove her there in a car and got her out. She screamed and cried in terror, and wet herself as they bound her legs together and tied her arms to her sides. They put her in the hole and buried her up to her neck while she cried and begged and screamed. Then the people picked up rocks and started throwing them at her head. Her scalp was peeled, her eyeballs burst, her ears torn and ripped away, her cheeks torn through, her lips torn off, her nose smashed in and the people kept throwing rocks until she was quiet. They dug her out and she was still breathing, so they buried and continued stoning her. This happened three times before her body was lifeless. Her head was unrecognizeable, her brains leaking from her ears and through cracks and holes in her exposed skull.

Horrifying, isn't it. The law and the prophets that you speak of command it. Those Muslims were following the law of God as laid out in the Holy Bible. The terrible thing that those people did involved normal people from the community who had to participate in killing that poor woman, as per the commands given by God himself in the Bible. Those are people who will have to live the rest of their lives haunted by that womans screams, the vision of her head and face being torn to pieces, and the knowledge that they did it to someone who had been their friend, neighbor and relative all her life.

Is Adventism a Biblical religion? Do we abide by scripture, or do we pick and choose what we will follow? Is all scripture inspired by God? Then why don't we do like the Muslims and follow the more unpleasant of the laws handed down to us by the prophets? Where is it written that we should keep the dietary laws, but not the laws regarding stoning people to death? The Catholics are at least honest enough to admit that they have the divine power to change scripture and supercede it with tradition. We do the same but are dishonest about it.

[reddogs]

ASI/OCI are Adventist umbrella organizations with many sub-entities all over the world. ASI-Adventist Laymen's Serivces and Industries. OCI-Outpost Centers International.

Just recently a religious Muslim council in Africa found a woman guilty of adultery. They dug a hole in the ground and the elders of the community and many of the town people came out and surrounded the hole. The drove her there in a car and got her out. She screamed and cried in terror, and wet herself as they bound her legs together and tied her arms to her sides. They put her in the hole and buried her up to her neck while she cried and begged and screamed. Then the people picked up rocks and started throwing them at her head. Her scalp was peeled, her eyeballs burst, her ears torn and ripped away, her cheeks torn through, her lips torn off, her nose smashed in and the people kept throwing rocks until she was quiet. They dug her out and she was still breathing, so they buried and continued stoning her. This happened three times before her body was lifeless. Her head was unrecognizeable, her brains leaking from her ears and through cracks and holes in her exposed skull.

Horrifying, isn't it. The law and the prophets that you speak of command it. Those Muslims were following the law of God as laid out in the Holy Bible. The terrible thing that those people did involved normal people from the community who had to participate in killing that poor woman, as per the commands given by God himself in the Bible. Those are people who will have to live the rest of their lives haunted by that womans screams, the vision of her head and face being torn to pieces, and the knowledge that they did it to someone who had been their friend, neighbor and relative all her life.

Is Adventism a Biblical religion? Do we abide by scripture, or do we pick and choose what we will follow? Is all scripture inspired by God? Then why don't we do like the Muslims and follow the more unpleasant of the laws handed down to us by the prophets? Where is it written that we should keep the dietary laws, but not the laws regarding stoning people to death? The Catholics are at least honest enough to admit that they have the divine power to change scripture and supercede it with tradition. We do the same but are dishonest about it.

My brother, why such anger, its very destructive to hold such hate and rancor. You must let it go and see what God can do, as there is nothing in what you say that deserves such a big swing......

Red

[Habanero]

My brother, why such anger, its very destructive to hold such hate and rancor. You must let it go and see what God can do, as there is nothing in what you say that deserves such a big swing......

Red

Hey Red,

Not anger or hate,  just disolusionment. Being aware of what death by stoning actually is, I am horrified beyond words at the thought of actually worshipping an entity that would command it for picking up sticks on Sabbath, recalcitrant children, women who are accused of adultery, etc. I would never even consider worshipping such an entity. I can't help but loath it, as I have deep feeling for people and can't bear to see suffering. I am not inclined to worship gods who require torture. That is what gods like Moloch were known for. Islam still follows the Biblical commands in those areas, but thank goodness Jews and Christians don't. Yet, I don't understand why we adhere to a book that commands it, call that book the infallible word of God, yet throw out the truly horrible things that this god commands, and sometime do horrible things to other people in requiring them to follow the kinder aspects of that god.

Can this question be answered: do we believe in the divine inspiration of the entire Bible?

[reddogs]

My brother, why such anger, its very destructive to hold such hate and rancor. You must let it go and see what God can do, as there is nothing in what you say that deserves such a big swing......

Red

Hey Red,

Not anger or hate,  just disolusionment. Being aware of what death by stoning actually is, I am horrified beyond words at the thought of actually worshipping an entity that would command it for picking up sticks on Sabbath, recalcitrant children, women who are accused of adultery, etc. I would never even consider worshipping such an entity. I can't help but loath it, as I have deep feeling for people and can't bear to see suffering. I am not inclined to worship gods who require torture. That is what gods like Moloch were known for. Islam still follows the Biblical commands in those areas, but thank goodness Jews and Christians don't. Yet, I don't understand why we adhere to a book that commands it, call that book the infallible word of God, yet throw out the truly horrible things that this god commands, and sometime do horrible things to other people in requiring them to follow the kinder aspects of that god.

Can this question be answered: do we believe in the divine inspiration of the entire Bible?

These doubts are not from God, evil is tempting you with them. You need to ask God to bring the Holy Spirit and guide you into all truth.

God Bless my brother
Red

[Chrissie]

Reformers like Martin Luther discovered the fallacy in this, and he proclaimed the doctrine of justification  by faith alone and not by works.

Ellen White approvede a similar proclamation by Waggoner and Jones, and she stated this is the Advent Message.  So in many cases it is much better to proclaim the Advent Messsage than to point out the weaknesses in the Roman Catholic system.

It is so important to remember this. We can create enemies where that need not be so. Taking a stand on "I'm right and you're wrong" doesn't win people to Christ.

Only Christ saves, and not adherence to sanctifying devises.

 
And... this is the most important message that we can ever get across to people.

As I was brought up a very strict Catholic, I still have a few Catholic friends. I still have the opportunity to dialouge with them occassionaly, because I make Christ and His sacrifice, the centre of conversation rather than the difference in dogma. If I had gone down that track, they would not still be friends and all doors for communications would be permanently closed.

[reddogs]

Reformers like Martin Luther discovered the fallacy in this, and he proclaimed the doctrine of justification  by faith alone and not by works.

Ellen White approvede a similar proclamation by Waggoner and Jones, and she stated this is the Advent Message.  So in many cases it is much better to proclaim the Advent Messsage than to point out the weaknesses in the Roman Catholic system.

It is so important to remember this. We can create enemies where that need not be so. Taking a stand on "I'm right and you're wrong" doesn't win people to Christ.

Only Christ saves, and not adherence to sanctifying devises.

 
And... this is the most important message that we can ever get across to people.

As I was brought up a very strict Catholic, I still have a few Catholic friends. I still have the opportunity to dialouge with them occassionaly, because I make Christ and His sacrifice, the centre of conversation rather than the difference in dogma. If I had gone down that track, they would not still be friends and all doors for communications would be permanently closed.

Very true as I talk to many Catholics on the forums, but we must never forget the context in which many of these beliefs come from as many have no idea. My family comes from a Catholic background and many Catholics today will tell you that the idols and candles, etc.. mean nothing that it just reminds them of Christ and the disciples like the Iwo Jima monument reminds of the Marines and the battle the fought. But that is not true if they go down to parts of the world were the idols are worshiped, and the heathen beliefs continue just with a 'cloak of christianity' to hide it. Baal is still being worshiped along with all the pagan gods, just with a new coat of paint.....