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[Bob Pickle]

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

Absolutely remarkable! The RCC claims that it has the authority to change one of the 10 Commandments, but it has no authority to ordain a woman. How can that possibly be?

[Bob Pickle]

What a bombshell, Gregory. Here we have it black on white. The Roman Catholic Church finds no reason in the New Testament to refuse the ordination of women, so they base their doctrine  on tradition, and/or an infallible proclamation of the pope himself.

Now we see how interestingly some of our Dear Brethren have stretched themselves to re-invent this teaching that is mainly based on Roman Catholic tradition. So they go searching for an excuse in the New Testament to follow this Roman tradition.

And then some of them make the claim that you cannot be a true Seventh-day Adventist unless you follow the papal tradition. How can the good Lord have His way with us? Laodicea.

The anti-Trinitarians say the same, Johann, even though it isn't true.

1 Timothy 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

[Bob Pickle]

Johann, maybe I have missed where these statements from Ellen White are located.  Would you please list them again?  Thank you.

Here is a sample: “it is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.” (Review & Herald, January 15, 1901)

Johann, did you quote the wrong statement? This one says nothing about ordaining anyone.

And I believe I already gave you a quote about a minister who was preaching to a congregation, but who was not a pastor to that congregation because he did not like doing "pastoral work," which Ellen White described as "visiting" and "personal labor" (9MR 343, 344). To ignore that statement and to just keep quoting RH 1-15-1901 without making any attempt whatsoever to show that "pastors" in that statement must refer to the senior pastor of a local church makes no sense.

Plus, I've also raised the issue how in the very same year, as well as in 1902, Ellen White wrote the folks in Iowa and told them that as a general rule, the preachers were to go out from the churches into new fields (Ev 382; 1888 1762; 16 MR 346). It would make no sense, then, for her to say in that same year that both men and women were to be pastoring local churches rather than laboring in new fields.

Here starts the avalanche Throwing out blurs about local churches versus laboring in the field. We have gone through that before to no avail. And also these blurs about senior pastors etc. In my early youth I never heard the term "senior pastor" used anywhere, neither have I ever read it in the writings of Ellen White. It could have been after 1960 I first heard the term "senior pastor" when I had been working in the ministry for a while.

We may therefore conclude from your reply that you have no answer, and that therefore RH 1-15-1901 is not talking about ordaining women to be local pastors of local churches.

Far from that, Bob. I am not trying to invent some detailed excuse that keeps me from taking Ellen White at her words here, but it appears to me like that is your delight. Anything to shirk your responsibility from doing what is prescribed or adjust your thinking to what God is telling us. You do not want this female prophet telling you anything that is different from what you know already.

You do not change my conscience from calling sin by its right name by demanding I define if Ellen White is talking about one kind of ministry or another. God does not demand of us to wait forever before we have defined all the details in his command to us. Males have invented this doctrine of male supremacy just to avoid being obedient, or could there be any other purpose?

Since you have again failed to show where RH 1-15-1901 anywhere talks about ordination, this is further confirmation that the quote you gave says nothing about ordination.

That's one issue. The other unanswered issue concerns what Ellen White meant by "pastors."

[christian]

Thank you for your corrections, Gregory. But the way I describe it is not only what I have read in Catholic instructions to the priests, but also as I experienced it when I took part in a Roman Catholic mass in a Roman Catholic church in Copenhagen around 1981 or 82. I received a special invitation to meet with the church members immediately after the mass, to tell them about Seventh-day Adventists and the difference in our beliefs and theirs. It was a member of the Catholic Church whom I knew who arranged it. As I recall I talked to the priest before the mass, so he knew who I was. Then when the priest gave out the bread he took a circle around me to avoid that I'd get hold of the bread. It was after my lecture that this Lutheran lady came to me to ask me to help her get permission to participate in the Eucharist, something the priest had not been willing to let her have, even though she was a regular attendant at the mass.

Thirty years have passed, and this was in a country geographically closer to Rome. Could that explain the differences? But the Hoc est corpus Christos magic formula has hardly changed,  unless it is different in the American military?

And the anti female formula is still a Roman Catholic trademark and also the great difference in the Roman Catholic priesthood as compared to the pastor/evangelist of  the New Testament.

Johann, you have a lot of knowledge about the Catholic Church, I am just saying. You have a way of interpreting everything in the light of your own beliefs, it would do good for you to correctly state what a person is actually saying. Why are you reading the Catholic Instruction to the Priest? Really man stop trying to corrupt the Adventist Church. You know the Church is the Bride of God? With your thinking the church will become the Groom? For the hundredth time you are not fooling anyone, in Gods church men and women have different roles each being different but both of equal value. God created the man and woman different, women have breast for a reason. It is only homosexuals who believe that the relationship between men and women is the same as the relationship between men and men and women and women. Your diabolical mask the covering for the distortion of the gospel will not work.

[christian]

Christian, honest people who are committed to follow Christ and who hold the Bible to be the auathorative standard can and do differ of some points as to what the Bible teaches.  This is probably due, in part, to the fact that all of us have been corrupted by the world of sin in which we are born and live.

It is entirely inappropriate for you to call Johann a Jesuit.  It demeans you as a person.  It diminishes any truth that you might claim for your position.  It slanders a man who has devoted a life-time dedicated to following Christ in the manner that he beleived God was leading.  You may ultimately be correct in your position that God only wants males to be ordained, although I disagree with you as does Johann.  But, the Christ that I follow would not stoop to the level that you have done in saying:  " . . . you are a Jesuit for sure."

I do not agree with every position that Johann has taken.  I do not think that he is 100% correct in everything that he says, just as I do not disagree with everything that you say. Engage in the debate if you wish. But, do so, I would hope, with the spirit of Christ.  What you have said about Johann lacks the integrity that I expect to come from those who are following Christ.

 Let me make myself as plain as possible. For much to long we have been cordial with people when having discussions that destroy the very foundation of the church. I truly believe that women will be ordained and in the end as "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths Isaiah 3:12." I have seen this fight when it came to music, Ellen G. White, movies, video games etc... And the longevity of someone in the work does not diminish the responsibility of that individual to sound doctrine. Even in choosing Ellen G. White, it was only done after men rejected or did not fulfill the call. Even the prophetess Diana wanted to give the rightfull position to the man. I understand what the fight is about and it never is clear until after the die is cast, then the true motive is revealed. This step will lead, in my opinion, to a worse condition of the church instead of a better one. I can remember the music discussions and how the church needed the music of the day to survive but look at the results. Hardly ever is their a discussion of more prayer and to a large extent music has taken the place of prayer and Bible study. Music has become the driving force of many a service, even being liken to the Holy Spirit. Our young people are for the most part participants in every form of entertainment and debauchery as those in the world. And the major Colloges teach some of the most nasty courses in the name of accreditation. ----Have you ever wondered how someone acts when they are in real danger? Your corduality is a result of the fact you don't believe the words of God. Would you sit and kindly ask someone to stop stabbing your daughter? The Pandora's box will be open and you will see the like of what you have not seen and you will lament the day you were cordual. Why do you think Jesus called the Priest of their day servants of the devil? You know what the High Priest had been in service for a long time too. By the way I don't know if her is a real Jesuit or not but I have seen this argument and techniques before and I know what the results will be. As for what he is asking for I believe falls in the realm of the Jesuits.

[tinka]

waiting...waiting.....waiting...... exactly what I said and got ripped off posting. Wonder what the difference is here. This post is still here. lol a Jesuit is a Jesuit. Their actions are all the same and there is no stopping it.

But good job with all your comments as I agree with all. Glad someone else stood up as was sickening to watch the improvising of all sound doctrine being ripped in all directions with all ridiculous reasoning. You might add to the perpetrator. It is written!!  This is how the "reformers" work and see first hand on here. it's mind boggling...for them to keep up their reasoning of own agenda. But Christian -you got the picture. It took a while to discover, but shocking.