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[Johann]

What do these stories by Ellen White tell you?

[tinka]

Remarriage of S. N. Haskell—We received Brother Haskell’s [Elder S. N. Haskell’s first wife died in 1894. This letter refers to his second marriage, which took place in 1897, when he was 64 years old.] letter the evening after the Sabbath. We were glad to hear from you that your interests are united as one. May the Lord bless this union, that you may be a strength and support to one another at all times. May the peace of God rest upon you, is my sincere desire and earnest prayer. “Go, stand and speak ... To the people all the words of this life” [Acts 5:20]. {TSB 33.1}
I am pleased, Brother Haskell, that you have a helper [Mrs. Haskell]. This is that which I have desired for some time. The work in which we are engaged has made us one in Christ Jesus to diffuse the knowledge of Jesus Christ. It is your privilege to have happiness in your new relation to each other, in ministering the gospel to those who are in darkness and error. We can sympathize and unite in the grand work that you and I love, and which is the one great object ever before us, the enlargement of the kingdom of Christ and the celebration of His glory. In everything which relates to this we are united in bonds of Christian fellowship, in companionship with heavenly intelligences.... {TSB 33.2}
Because of the light given me, I am fully possessed with the conviction that through your united agencies, as sanctified instrumentalities, light shall be reflected to the salvation of many souls that are now in darkness and error. I know you have not lived unto yourselves but unto Him whom you love and whom you serve and worship.—Letter 74a, 1897. {TSB 33.3}

Now to read in context this individual case.

No 1. in red highlighted statement or comment is "now your interests are united in one". Does this make you question about Mrs. No.1. Was she a help to Brother Haskell in this "great movement" that Haskell was to do and loved the same as EGW?

No.2 in red highlight EGW now says it is their priviledge to have happiness in strenght and support at all times for a united effort for the people in darkness

No. 3 in blue highlight.. Now she says "you are to go Stand and speak"?

Does this maybe give you the question that he maybe hindered before!! Was there something not of help to Haskell, only the Lord knows that and EGW gave the best advise for Haskells situation that would give him help to continue. and the fact is that God chooses his messengers and in this context is unique in its self as these were the beginning of 3rd angels message/  but Paul also was giving a beginning message and had no hinderance and gave reason in his and our context that it is better not to remarry as basically a whole concept but yet a "loop hole" for unique situations.

No. 4 the key words--the second wife and Haskell were now "fully possessed  conviction of united agencies,  possessed as santified instrumentalities. 

This tell you Haskell, now had the helper he so much needed. Did he not have it before or what hinderance did he have? that side of story is not there,  EGW had her husband as a helper and she helped him.

Now, why did she not remarry for the same reasons of Haskell, I would say Haskell did not have the same desirous situation that would help and tie Haskell to. In fact EGW states May the Lord Bless this Union. No other side of the story is here all about first marriage only statements for help from the second. So therefore you cannot take away Paul's statement for a different situation. and that is what is important to understand when you read the writings of EGW.  instead of coming up with well, here you go story. Haskell married at 64 end of story.

[tinka]

Advice to J. N. Andrews—I advised you to marry before you returned the last time to Europe for these reasons. First, you needed a wife to care for you and [you] should not have taken your family to Europe without a good companion to be a mother to your children, that these children might not in all things bear the stamp of your mind and be molded according to your ideas. Your mind is not equally balanced. You need another element brought into your labors that you do not possess and that you do not understand is really essential.... {TSB 34.1}
Your ideas have been erroneous to preserve your life as a widower, but on this point I will say no more. The influence of a noble Christian woman of proper capabilities would have served to counteract the tendencies of your mind. The ability of concentrativeness, the intense light in which you view everything of a religious character connected with the cause and work of God, has brought upon you depression of spirits, a weight of anxiety that has weakened you physically and mentally. If you had been connected with one who would have opposite feelings, who would have ability to turn your thoughts away from gloomy subjects, who would not have yielded her individuality, but have preserved her identity and had a molding influence upon your mind, you would today have had physical strength and power to resist disease.—Letter 9, 1883. {TSB 34.2}
You remember I wrote you from Texas to obtain a wife before you returned to Europe. Do you suppose I would have given you such advice if I had had no light upon the matter? Be assured, no such counsel would have been given you without good reason. I was shown [that] you follow your own judgment and your own ideas altogether too tenaciously. If you were more willing to be counseled by those you should confide in, and trust less to your own feelings and impressions, the result for yourself and for the cause of God would be far better. {TSB 34.3}
I was shown that you made a mistake in starting to Europe without a companion. If you had, before starting, selected you a godly woman who could have been a mother to your children, you would have done a wise thing, and your usefulness would have been tenfold to what it has been.—Letter 1, 1883. {TSB 35.1}

Here is a story in context of a younger man with children and where the children do not have proper direction and it is all self explanitory that in highlighted red above that he was not able to carry out the cause of God in this situation and needed a Godly woman. Plain and simple this context.
This also was unique with the 3rd angels message going forward. What can you do without a Godly woman when his life work was ahead of him.  This does not take away from Paul's statement but a "loop hole" for this situation probably from wrong choices to begin with, but who knows the rest of story because EGW just gives hint to what his situation was and the next best thing to do for him to carry out his lifes calling.

Then in James we are to do all with reasoning. and that is exactly how EGW is shown and replies to each individual case, cause and reasoning working through Past events.

[tinka]

A Son’s Interference [This letter was written July 28, 1902, to the son of Elder George I. Butler, former president of the General Conference. Elder Butler’s wife died November 15, 1901, leaving him a widower at the age of 68. As a result of his son’s influence, Elder Butler did not marry the woman referred to in this letter. Five years later, in 1907, he married someone else.]—I beg of you not to reproach your father. You should not feel as you do, for your father has done nothing that God condemns. His condemnation exists only in the minds of men. He has in no wise dishonored his children. He is keeping the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment. The Lord is opening the way before him, that he may do a great and good work for His people. Christ is his Saviour, and in beholding Christ he will be changed into His image. {TSB 35.2}
Your father has been a kind, tender husband. For many years he served faithfully her whom he has always loved. Death separated him from the one who for so long has been his special charge. Then his sister was taken from him, and his home was broken up. Is it any wonder that under these circumstances he should, after your mother’s death, become attached to a woman in whose conversion to the truth he was instrumental? This woman is not young, but of an age to be a help to him in his work. Should your father’s age have stood as a barrier to his happiness? ... {TSB 35.3}
Had your father married this lady, I believe that the Lord would greatly have blessed them both. But I do not think, seeing that the matter has been treated as it has, it will go any further. Those who refused to sanction this union should remember that one day they must meet the result of their action. But I must leave this matter with those who have been acting a part in it.—Letter 117, 1902. {TSB 36.1}

Here again a different scenario but still basically the same reasoning, The highlighted is EGW giving a big reason for second wife. Evidently Elder Butler had a burden his whole life with special needs to his wife with their son also giving first place to his mother. Hmmm, Therefore the Lord opened a way for Elder Butler to go forward with work for the Lord. Who can question this one but still does not take away from Paul's statement for us in most common situations once we have married evenly yoked under God. You see God knows more about the Unions of marriage that we choose and what will work for his cause.

When you are evenly yoked for what other reason would one want to remarry if the other was loyal to God and spouse?


None of your posts or EGW letters to individuals show that these situations were evenly yoked to begin with but hindered their life work. It seems plain and simple to me. Of course I'm very used to her opinion and reasoning with much time invested to know her writings.

[Bob Pickle]

None of your posts or EGW letters to individuals show that these situations were evenly yoked to begin with but hindered their life work.

Hindered their life work? Rather, the burden would be on you to show that that was true. The quotes concerned three prominent Seventh-day Adventist ministers, the last being the man that was GC president in 1888. Rather than assume that their wives hindered their life work, we should assume that they did not unless we have clear evidence to the contrary.

"I see in Elder Butler a man of usefulness, a man of intelligence and Bible study.  His ministry would be much more valuable were he united with a woman who could help him in his work.  Think of how much more he could accomplish with the help of a discreet, intelligent woman.  He should not be left to live alone and to travel alone.  The sooner he can find a good wife, the better it will be for his work.  A wife could do for him those things that no male companion could do -- look after his clothes, see that they are free from dust, and that he is always prepared to appear before large congregations" (RY 118-119).

Doesn't this make sense? What percentage of widower ministers out there who want to still labor for the Lord would not be more effective in their work if they remarried "a discreet, intelligent woman" who could, among other things, make sure he looked presentable? Perhaps Butler was less skilled in that area than most, but I would think it a general rule that women are more adept, talented, and skilled in that area than men.

[Johann]

None of your posts or EGW letters to individuals show that these situations were evenly yoked to begin with but hindered their life work.

Hindered their life work? Rather, the burden would be on you to show that that was true. The quotes concerned three prominent Seventh-day Adventist ministers, the last being the man that was GC president in 1888. Rather than assume that their wives hindered their life work, we should assume that they did not unless we have clear evidence to the contrary.

"I see in Elder Butler a man of usefulness, a man of intelligence and Bible study.  His ministry would be much more valuable were he united with a woman who could help him in his work.  Think of how much more he could accomplish with the help of a discreet, intelligent woman.  He should not be left to live alone and to travel alone.  The sooner he can find a good wife, the better it will be for his work.  A wife could do for him those things that no male companion could do -- look after his clothes, see that they are free from dust, and that he is always prepared to appear before large congregations" (RY 118-119).

Doesn't this make sense? What percentage of widower ministers out there who want to still labor for the Lord would not be more effective in their work if they remarried "a discreet, intelligent woman" who could, among other things, make sure he looked presentable? Perhaps Butler was less skilled in that area than most, but I would think it a general rule that women are more adept, talented, and skilled in that area than men.

Very good, Bob. In this I agree fully with all you have written. None of the quotes referred in any way to the first wife but to the fact that the man was alone after the first wife died., and therefore free to marry again.

[Bob Pickle]

Johann, you don't have to comment if you don't want to, but are your clothes more presentable because of your dear wife, or would you fare just as well and better than Butler if you had never remarried? I know there are areas in which my wife excels me.

[Johann]

Johann, you don't have to comment if you don't want to, but are your clothes more presentable because of your dear wife, or would you fare just as well and better than Butler if you had never remarried? I know there are areas in which my wife excels me.

 

[youngwarrior]

Tinka - Perhaps you should read Jesus' response to the Saducees' question regarding the woman who had married seven brothers (one at a time).  The question was "who will she be married to in the resurrection?"  The answer was they didn't understand the power of God.  That in heaven there would no longer be marriage.  Doesn't mean we won't know them or have a special relationship; it does mean though, that it won't be like it is here where we are married to only one at a time.

[tinka]

None of your posts or EGW letters to individuals show that these situations were evenly yoked to begin with but hindered their life work.

Hindered their life work? Rather, the burden would be on you to show that that was true. The quotes concerned three prominent Seventh-day Adventist ministers, the last being the man that was GC president in 1888. Rather than assume that their wives hindered their life work, we should assume that they did not unless we have clear evidence to the contrary.

"I see in Elder Butler a man of usefulness, a man of intelligence and Bible study.  His ministry would be much more valuable were he united with a woman who could help him in his work.  Think of how much more he could accomplish with the help of a discreet, intelligent woman.  He should not be left to live alone and to travel alone.  The sooner he can find a good wife, the better it will be for his work.  A wife could do for him those things that no male companion could do -- look after his clothes, see that they are free from dust, and that he is always prepared to appear before large congregations" (RY 118-119).

Doesn't this make sense? What percentage of widower ministers out there who want to still labor for the Lord would not be more effective in their work if they remarried "a discreet, intelligent woman" who could, among other things, make sure he looked presentable? Perhaps Butler was less skilled in that area than most, but I would think it a general rule that women are more adept, talented, and skilled in that area than men.

Maybe you should read my points again, I am simply stating that under each and every situation of the above quotes, EGW mentions the points why and for what reasons they needed this help. How did you pick up the point that I disagreed with and needed to prove  what she advised for those different particular  situations??

 I also stated  within the 3 different situations that the rest of the story from the side of deceased spouse was not told. Did you not get that I pointed that out?

 But because of the reasons she advised on all 3 different scenarios it is common sense and quite obvious that all 3 widowers needed what they did not have then or previous. Especially so in the younger man with small children. That was quite obvious.

 Evidently Elder Butler was totally not free as much as he would have liked  because his wife was given or had special needs of which is not divulged here (so if there is nothing to this morsel of info why did she very carefully state it? . and it is very much like Mrs. White not to divulge what is not necessary but in many instances like this is how people run on into their theories of "Jewelry, ordination of women etc, etc.  So what am I to prove? That Mrs Butler did not take time from Elder Butler by his  being so tentative to her, a wonderful husband and giving special needs to his wife. No body nor I discredited him and even EW mentions all that info how wonderful he was.  So now common sense gives that he can go forward with much more effort from a helper or second wife  and gives vivid account of why.

Each post she gave points for different men that were doing the same work as her and gave the hardships they were going through with which again common sense made it harder for them to do their work. Her advise in each situation was to better what had befell them. and according to the reading account of each different man-  did not have a situation as described to go full force without help.

Again, why did not EGW remarry when she advised the other to do it???

all the years, James and Ellen pulled the same yoke, nothing stood in their way (even their hardships) as the info of trials and description of each 3 posts above were much different.

Sorry if you don't get my point, but I look at a very broad picture with reasoning with what info she gives.

Would it been more black and white if she just stated "get remarried" with no reasons why? Then you could have argued with her and Paul. It would have been direct contradiction without reasoning out the full purpose of the chosen of God to give 3rd angels message and His ways of doing it at that special timing. His ways are mysterious ways.

[tinka]

Tinka - Perhaps you should read Jesus' response to the Saducees' question regarding the woman who had married seven brothers (one at a time).  The question was "who will she be married to in the resurrection?"  The answer was they didn't understand the power of God (and his knowledge of all inclinations of thoughts and truths of each human being).  That in heaven there would no longer be marriage. (true, as your life choices were made on earth) Doesn't mean we won't know them or have a special relationship; (families will be united together- is this not true then somebody tell Lyle he's thinking wrong too) it does mean though, that it won't be like it is here where we are married to only one at a time.  Now that is a horrible thought for me to contemplate- you mean we will have different companions at different times.

To understand the Godhead and the working of each entity that is really One God makes me understand why Marriage will not be in heaven as we know it here. Not all will have all their spouses, but some will. not all children will have their parents but some will and not all parents will have their children but some will. Even the angels have their companions and no need for marriage with them . Has anyone contemplated why!!!

[Bob Pickle]

Evidently Elder Butler was totally not free as much as he would have liked  because his wife was given or had special needs of which is not divulged here (so if there is nothing to this morsel of info why did she very carefully state it?

The facts at the time were well known, and here is what I remember: Elder Butler had opposed the message of Jones and Waggoner. Though too sick to attend the 1888 GC Session, he told the brethren to stand by the old landmarks. He blamed Ellen White for making him sick.

When earlier Ellen White had come out against Jones and/or Waggoner publicly presenting contrary views, Butler after that disseminated a booklet he wrote opposing their views. Ellen White then told him that since he had done that, they needed to have their say too.

So at the 1888 GC Session he was put out to pasture, as it were, like Moses herding sheep. He cared for his ailing wife until she died, and then got back into the work. The furnace of affliction apparently did its work, because I don't recall seeing any further complaints about him. He was president of the Southern Union, as I recall.

So the problem with Butler was not his first wife. The problem with Butler was Butler.

[Johann]

Evidently Elder Butler was totally not free as much as he would have liked  because his wife was given or had special needs of which is not divulged here (so if there is nothing to this morsel of info why did she very carefully state it?

So the problem with Butler was not his first wife. The problem with Butler was Butler.

Right, and yet Ellen White cared for  him.