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[Gregory]

Sure, everyone is free to have an opinion, even unwarranted opinions. And my opinion is that Johann's comments were over the top.

If anyone is free to express any and every opinion, then we wouldn't have moderators editing some comments.

Bob, I  agree.  Yes, you express personal opinions as do Johann and I.

I cannot see how your quotations disprove what I said.

I did not intend to disprove your main thesis as to the correctness of Johann's statement.  I did not commenet on that.  My comment was to the effect that you had misconstrued what Johann had said.

It is not unwarranted and over the top for Johann to express an opinion, which he clearly identified as his opinion, on Damsteegt atn Batchelor.  That opinion, which may be correct and it may be incorrect, is clearly subject to debate and such a debate would be fair.

[Johann]

First I went into Batchelor'd website where I was not satisfied he was drawing the right conclusions in his understanding of Paul, especially in what seemed  to me to be such a grave sin as ordaining women for the ministry. To prove his point Batchelor posted a Power Point presentation by Damsteegt right there on his website, again, as I understood it poiting to the great sin of ordaing women to the ministry. To prove his point Damsteegt referred to Pipim.

So I go to Pipim, and what do I find there? I understood Pipim was stating that really going to bed with another woman than one's wife was not so bad. That was all I wanted to read. I did not copy it nor do I have any urge whatsoever going back to reading any more of such stuff. That is just my honest opinion. I am not demanding of you to share my opinion. Neither will I object to you trying to change my opinion.

[Bob Pickle]

Gregory,

Then we disagree on this one. I think that Johann's opinion that Batchelor and Damsteegt come across as if rape is not as bad a sin as ordaining women is totally unwarranted.

Johann,

Adventism has a long history of quoting individuals in support of a point, without endorsing every single point the individual holds. To propose that Damsteegt and Batchelor must endorse every point Pipim holds too simply because they cite him regarding women's ordination is unwarranted.

Particularly is this the case since, in all likelihood, Batchelor and Damsteegt's presentations were made before the allegations of rape against Pipim went public in recent weeks. It is unfair to propose that someone endorses a position when that alleged position wasn't even known.

[Gregory]

Bob:  We seem to be talking over each other's head.

I did not express an opinion as to whether or not Johann's statement was accurate.  On that basis, it can not be said that you and I either agree or disagree.

What I said was that you misquoted Johann.

1st of all, he clearly stated that "it seems to me."  IOW, he was stateing it as a personal opinion.  He was not stating it as a quoted fact.

Johann stated an opinion in regard to the two cited  authors.  Instead of taking it as an opinion, you responded as if Johann had stated it as a fact.

As an opinnion, you could have challenged Johann.  If he had stated it as a fact, you could have challenged himl.  It would have been appropriate to do so in either case.

When one stated an opinon, one is not claiming that something has reached the level of a fact.

If I say:  "X happened on Monday, July 17, 2012,"  I am making a definative statement of fact that is clearly wrong due to the fact the  July 17, 2011 was not a Monday.  If I say:  "I believe that X happened on Monday, July 17, 2011, I am stating an opinion that can be challenged and shown to be wrong, but I am not stating it as a fact.

Bob, you said:

Then your comments are definitely unwarranted.

  You spoke to the idea that Johann should not have posted his opinon.

If you had said: "You conclusion is unwrranted." I would never have challenged you.

This is probably a minor issue which I would not have wanted to comment on at such length.  I have done so due to the fact you have indicated that you and I disagree with Johann's conclusion.  I have not stated one way or the other as to whether or not I agree or disagree with his conclusion.  I simply believe that it was not unwarrented for him to state an opinion, regardless of whether or not that opinion was accurate.

I disagree with some of your posted opinions and agree with others.  Regardless, I beileve that you have a right to post your opiinions.

[Bob Pickle]

I do not think people should recklessly post unwarranted opinions. To accuse individuals of minimizing rape without any logical or factual basis for doing so in today's litigious climate is dangerous. Whether one calls it an opinion or not may not help.

Further, no Christian should recklessly post unwarranted opinions. Heaven's courts will judge us for every idle word, said Jesus.

If someone wanted to recklessly post, "I think Batchelor and Damsteegt hate black shoes, but like brown shoes," big deal. But in this instance these men were accused of minimizing rape in their opposition of women's ordination.

I can see why someone might accuse Pipim of that, and I would say that there may be evidence to that effect. But to accuse Batchelor and Damsteegt of that without any basis for doing so, simply because they cited Pipim at some point in the past, that is unwarranted.

One of the definitions of "unwarranted" is "unjustified."

[Johann]

First I went into Batchelor'd website where I was not satisfied he was drawing the right conclusions in his understanding of Paul, especially in what seemed  to me to be such a grave sin as ordaining women for the ministry. To prove his point Batchelor posted a Power Point presentation by Damsteegt right there on his website, again, as I understood it poiting to the great sin of ordaing women to the ministry. To prove his point Damsteegt referred to Pipim.

So I go to Pipim, and what do I find there? I understood Pipim was stating that really going to bed with another woman than one's wife was not so bad. That was all I wanted to read. I did not copy it nor do I have any urge whatsoever going back to reading any more of such stuff. That is just my honest opinion. I am not demanding of you to share my opinion. Neither will I object to you trying to change my opinion.

I stand by what I say here, and not what you, Bob, falsely accuse me of saying.

[Bob Pickle]

First I went into Batchelor'd website where I was not satisfied he was drawing the right conclusions in his understanding of Paul, especially in what seemed  to me to be such a grave sin as ordaining women for the ministry. To prove his point Batchelor posted a Power Point presentation by Damsteegt right there on his website, again, as I understood it poiting to the great sin of ordaing women to the ministry. To prove his point Damsteegt referred to Pipim.

So I go to Pipim, and what do I find there? I understood Pipim was stating that really going to bed with another woman than one's wife was not so bad. That was all I wanted to read. I did not copy it nor do I have any urge whatsoever going back to reading any more of such stuff. That is just my honest opinion. I am not demanding of you to share my opinion. Neither will I object to you trying to change my opinion.

I stand by what I say here, and not what you, Bob, falsely accuse me of saying.

Do you also stand by your statement that a segment of the church feel that rape is less a sin than women's ordination? You wrote that one after you wrote the above.

Are you simply saying that Pipim must believe that rape is less of a sin? Or are you saying that many others do too? You original statement sounded like you included Batchelor and Damsteegt in that segment.