Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Sister on August 06, 2008, 10:14:35 AM
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The ASI Convention begins tonight. The opening night speaker is Jim Gilley. It is broadcast live from 3ABN. Check their webpage for time if you are interested in watching.
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Is this worth it's own thread???
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Somebody needs to be there watching how they accept donations of goods! Then we need to watch eBay to see what they have to sell.
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Somebody needs to be there watching how they accept donations of goods! Then we need to watch eBay to see what they have to sell.
Oh yes absolutely....afterall the IRS found all kinds of unseemly things going on with the donated goods program.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Now Sam;
How could the IRS check eBay sales that are not accounted for on 3ABN Books? How do I understand why Tammy got the money for some of 3ABN's items that sold to me? Remember, all the records for those sales don't exist. They only admit to sales since 2002. Even them, items on 3ABN that didn't sale went to Tammy's eBay store and I bought it! Tammy got the money. Then again, even though I made a purchase from Tammy's Store, Tammy's Variety Outlet, for a lesser price. That would be the store that Tammy said she never ever had.
Where are the records for sales prior to 2002? Are they gone so those sales will have no record as to where the money went?
Yes, I believe they need to be watched to see if they do it right! Sorry, that is just how I feel about it. The facts mentioned above really does not make the situation above board as far as I am concerned. Especially when Tammy outlined that Donors did not get receipts until AFTER the sale of the item! Wrong! Receipts are give on the date of the receipt.
Again, how can the IRS review and evaluate items that aren't there? Duh! Where did the money go for all those eBay sales that are not there, but I know they were sold. How do they explain that I made a purchase and got a Cash donation receipt for my purchases? It even said I received no goods or services for my cash donation? Remember, I had purchases and did not donate a penny! Is this what they do for everyone that made purchases?
Was Danny Shelton on the bank account that Tammy used for her eBay store? Or did Tammy get to keep all the proceeds? Think about it, Sam.
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How is it that some run all around seeking and trying to find a speck in someone else eye when they have a large pole beam protruding out of their own eye? I believe all of us have imagination enough to picture that.
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How is it that some run all around seeking and trying to find a speck in someone else eye when they have a large pole beam protruding out of their own eye? I believe all of us have imagination enough to picture that.
How is it that some can't answer simple, legitimate questions?
Fran has asked some things here that need answers. The Scripture verse you loosely quoted has nothing to do with what she asked.
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Answers have been given but just not what some wanted to hear. Some just keep looking for what they want to see and not what is really there.
Remember, there were those who added to the Law of God and sought to find ways to then catch their fellowman breaking their own added on laws and did not see that they themselves were not keeping the Law of God.
Luke 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother\'s eye.
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How is it that some run all around seeking and trying to find a speck in someone else eye when they have a large pole beam protruding out of their own eye? I believe all of us have imagination enough to picture that.
And how do you know that they have a "large pole beam protruding out of their own eye" if you were not looking for it?" So, how would you be different than them inasmuch as both you and they have found foreign matter in other people's eyes?
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A speck, or mote, is not easily seen and has to be looked for but no one needs to look for a large beam because it is easily seen by everyone.
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Answers have been given but just not what some wanted to hear.
Then both sides agree on that one regarding Tammy Shelton Chance's denial that she had an eBay store, when she clearly did. It was an answer that was given, but it didn't put her in a good light, and thus both sides would not have wanted to hear the answer she gave.
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Folks, there is still a lot of twisting going on under the influence of the twister who fell from heaven.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5PqydMA1kA
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What was twisted? You mean you were glad after all that Tammy said she had never had a store when she really had? I would never have guessed.
And really, if I was mistaken and you were glad, you could have merely said so instead of accusing some unspecified person of twisting some unspecified thing.
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A speck, or mote, is not easily seen and has to be looked for but no one needs to look for a large beam because it is easily seen by everyone.
Well said!
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I encourage everyone to listen to the ASI meetings. They have been a great blessing and encouragement to me.
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I encourage everyone to listen to the ASI meetings. They have been a great blessing and encouragement to me.
Back again Donna?
Has 3abn defended gone flat or have you found that 3abn/DS is not always honest in their dealings? :oops:
Edited for spelling error
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How is it that some run all around seeking and trying to find a speck in someone else eye when they have a large pole beam protruding out of their own eye? I believe all of us have imagination enough to picture that.
Folks, there is still a lot of twisting going on under the influence of the twister who fell from heaven.
Child of God;
Just what did I say below that show I have a beam in my eye?
Stating facts is not twisting the facts?
What I have stated as fact, is fact! I did not stutter.
Why are you implying that I am of the twister who fell from heaven (Satan)?
Praise God you are not my judge!
I am a child of God too!
Now Sam;
How could the IRS check eBay sales that are not accounted for on 3ABN Books?
How do I understand why Tammy got the money for some of 3ABN's items that sold to me?
Remember, all the records for those sales don't exist. They only admit to sales since 2002. Even then, items on 3ABN that didn't sale went to Tammy's eBay store and I bought it!
Tammy got the money. Then again, even though I made a purchase from Tammy's Store, Tammy's Variety Outlet, for a lesser price. That would be the store that Tammy said she never ever had.
Where are the records for sales prior to 2002? Are they gone so those sales will have no record as to where the money went?
Yes, I believe they need to be watched to see if they do it right! Sorry, that is just how I feel about it.
The facts mentioned above really does not make the situation above board as far as I am concerned.
Especially when Tammy outlined that Donors did not get receipts until AFTER the sale of the item! Wrong! Receipts are give on the date of the receipt.
Again, how can the IRS review and evaluate items that aren't there? Duh!
Where did the money go for all those eBay sales that are not there, but I know they were sold.
How do they explain that I made a purchase and got a Cash donation receipt for my purchases? It even said I received no goods or services for my cash donation? Remember, I had purchases and did not donate a penny!
Is this what they do for everyone that made purchases?
Was Danny Shelton on the bank account that Tammy used for her eBay store?
Or did Tammy get to keep all the proceeds?
Think about it, Sam.
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Anybody see anything interesting at the ASI convention?
Just wondering if it is worth my while to attend next year. Any good stuff?
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My husband is attending the ASI Convention this year. Unfortunately, circumstances made it impossible for me to attend with him. He said he has been blessed by the experience and especially commented that there are some really good speakers and he wished I could have been there, too.
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Snoopy, Rather than write the same to two different forums, I have answered your questions about the ASI Conventions at the following:
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Now Sam;
How could the IRS check eBay sales that are not accounted for on 3ABN Books? How do I understand why Tammy got the money for some of 3ABN's items that sold to me? Remember, all the records for those sales don't exist. They only admit to sales since 2002....
Where are the records for sales prior to 2002? Are they gone so those sales will have no record as to where the money went?
Now Fran, I am not unacquainted with either the Chances or the donations dept. I have even helped out in the donations barn at 3abn. So please forgive me for being blunt here, but my view you are going off half cocked, without having all the facts and evidence to look at.
Just because you have not seen the records or paper trail, does not mean that the 3abn bookkeeping department, their auditors and yes even the IRS has not seen them.
I personally know that you have never once contacted, approached, or asked any kind of questions whatsoever of either Bruce or Tammy Chance, (or 3abns bookkeeping dept) as I asked them, and they didn't even know who you were or anything about your concerns, questions nor accusations. Yet here you are finding fault with them and 3abn etc without bothering to consult those you are talking about or even trying to get the whole picture.
You are trying to weave bits and pieces and scraps together and coming up with the wrong pattern.
For these reasons, al though I do not plan on engaging in a discussion or debate here, I have to interject the following and say that I consider you not credible and very wrong. To be blunt again, that is not how we as Christians are to operate.
Even thought you didn't bother to contact her Tammy Shelton Chance did very graciously answer some of your concerns and criticisms here in a letter written to Sam.
I am including it below for those who haven't seen it before, and have bold texted some specific parts for emphasis.
From: Tammy Shelton Chance
Sent: Thu 6/05/08 11:58 AM
I have no problem with answering your questions to the best of my
ability. I will try to go through them one at a time.
Q. Now, 3ABN started selling on eBay in 1998. I made purchases. The
User ID at that time was nan_don! The Store now says it started June
1, 2001, on the information page right now. 3ABN has a total
feedback of 2011; however the feedback SCORE is 1581. What does this
mean? It means that they have bought and sold to 1581 unique
accounts. The difference is for repeat sellers and buyers.
A. At no time was 3abn's user name nan-don. If you will look at the
link that you sent me it says nan_don had over 4000 sales! That
certainly wasn't us. Only a very limited number of items were even
sold on ebay before we created the donation dept and then started the
store. Nan_don had nothing whatsoever to do with 3 Angels. Someone
entirely different. I won't go into answering the rest of the
questions you sent pertaining to nan_don since it is a moot point.
As far as the feedback score, repeat buyers are limited to the amount
of feedback that can be left, and we also must take into account that
some people that purchase don't bother to leave feedback so their
purchase isn't calculated into feedback scores.
Q. Did the store change its name 4 times in less than 2 weeks?
A. Absolutely not! There was no ebay store until I created and
named the store and I have never changed it! I am guessing this is
another error related to the nan_don ID.
Q. The PayPal expense is posted when PayPal charges it. The
eBay/PayPal expenses should be looked at each month to see if you are
loosing money!
A. Though this wasn't a question I will answer. Every sale is logged
into the computer database which connects to the accounting dept. It
is done at the time of the sale and the money from the item goes
directly into 3abn's account as soon as the person pays unless they
use an e check which takes approximately 7 days to clear. We do not
sell items everyday but when we do all is taken care of the day of
sale and again when payment is made. (We have a 3 day payment
policy). Every sold item has a check and balance.
Monthly reports are as follows: A download of all paypal payments
and fees. A download of all auctioned items and store inventory
items as well as, all sold items and all fees pertaining to those
items.
There is a monthly donor "sold item report" which shows the items
that were sold, the donor that gave the items, the donor's
constituent number, the sale date and the amount sold for. These
records are compared with the ebay/paypal records and any receipts
and records of sales outside of ebay.
As items arrive they are logged into the computer with the info of
who sent it, constituent number, date received and a description of
the item or items. A report of those items is made monthly.
Though you didn't ask for a "play by play" directly it may simplify
the process for you if I explain the process.
When an item or items arrive at 3 Angels it arrives at the call
center's shipping and receiving dept. The S/R manager opens the box,
gets the general idea of what is in it (doll, picture, quilt)and
makes a note of the description, who sent it and when it arrived.
These are kept on file.
The box is then brought over to the donation
department where an assistant inventories the box completely and then
logs the contents into the database along with donor and const #,
date received....Then the item or items is tagged or labeled with the
const # of the person who gave it.
Later when it is sold we look up the record by the const # where it
was entered upon arrival and we put the date sold and the amount sold for.
The same process of recording the sold items also applies to the Barn
Sale. Each item is tagged with the correct const # and is recorded
when it sells. When the monthly sale report is printed out it is
given to accounting so that they can receipt the donor for their
items that sold.
Q. Did you ever say on a program that you had brought in 2.4 million
dollars?
A. Absolutely not! Because we haven't. On one program we quoted
that over several years time we had brought in a quarter of a million
and on a later program close to half a million. Again those figures
were over several years. I don't have the exact time period in front
of me but 2.4 never happened and hasn't happened yet. We have faith
that one day we will reach that mark though as we continue to receive
great donations.
Q. What time period did the mock check you presented to Jim G.
represent?
A. One year.
Q. When did you begin using Paypal? Was it because of something you
read on Club Adventist?
A. lol We began using paypal in 2003. I never heard of Club
Adventist until about 8 or 9 months ago and certainly have never been
there.
Q.Is your department audited?
A. Absolutely. The auditor's come to our department with all the
reports in hand. They know our system and the checks and balances
that are in place. Given the complexities of all that is involved, +
a massive paper trail, they give us good marks on our accountability
with the department. Laws change as time goes by so we comply with
everything we are told to do by our CFO and the auditor's. That
results in periodic changes that are implemented into the program and
we do our best to keep up.
I could go into more facts and details than told here but I won't
bore you with everything that is required of us. Suffice it to say
we keep as precise and detailed records as is possible and we
continue to grow as our department grows.
Hope this helps,
Tammy Chance
Yes, I believe they need to be watched to see if they do it right! Sorry, that is just how I feel about it. The facts mentioned above really does not make the situation above board as far as I am concerned.
Fine, then watch, there are no problems with that, but please make sure you look at all in a impartial and unbiased manner, and that you have all the facts and evidence before reporting about it.
The funny thing about those looking to find fault, is that they will always find a way to do so.
I am quite sure none of us here want to be bearing false witness or to become an accuser of the brethren.
Righteous Judgment includes being both Just and Merciful.
Jax
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Jack,
Since Fran said that Tammy had a store of her own, and Tammy said she never had had a store, and Fran proved that she did, do you think Tammy is credible?
This discrepancy was pointed out awhile back, and no one that I have seen has yet explained why Tammy said she never had had a store when she clearly had. Does she have an explanation?
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Jack,
Since Fran said that Tammy had a store of her own, and Tammy said she never had had a store, and Fran proved that she did, do you think Tammy is credible?
This discrepancy was pointed out awhile back, and no one that I have seen has yet explained why Tammy said she never had had a store when she clearly had. Does she have an explanation?
Frankly there appears to either be an error of some kind, or some kind of funny stuff going on here.
Tammy Chance said she never had her own private store, and Ebay records don't show any records of her ever making any payment of fees to them for a store, whether before, during or after Fran claims she had one.
You or anyone else are free to contact Ebay with questions, (or anyone else) but this has been proven to my satisfaction and that is all I have to say about this topic.
Jax
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My husband is attending the ASI Convention this year. Unfortunately, circumstances made it impossible for me to attend with him. He said he has been blessed by the experience and especially commented that there are some really good speakers and he wished I could have been there, too.
Sera wish you not have to be separated from husband again too. :)
Remember story about Fiscalinis you write?
You say Fiscalinis you friends and tell you story and answer you questions.
He there too. Friend say he say wife sick and could not go too.
Friend say Danny Shelton talking to Pastor Fiscalini about Kris in front of people in aisle of ASI convention so friend hear what they say.
That is all. :)
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Sera think much rules make much more rules needed all the time. Is good have rules for every thing. Have new idea have new rule.
Like rule no one can answer posts on 3abnTalk forum here on adventtalk. No one can talk about what 3abn defenders say there. All must please answer posts on 3abnTalk forum, only on 3abnTalk forum, but never talk about here.
Is good idea? We add? :)
Sera
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Jack,
Since Fran said that Tammy had a store of her own, and Tammy said she never had had a store, and Fran proved that she did, do you think Tammy is credible?
This discrepancy was pointed out awhile back, and no one that I have seen has yet explained why Tammy said she never had had a store when she clearly had. Does she have an explanation?
Frankly there appears to either be an error of some kind, or some kind of funny stuff going on here.
Tammy Chance said she never had her own private store, and Ebay records don't show any records of her ever making any payment of fees to them for a store, whether before, during or after Fran claims she had one.
You or anyone else are free to contact Ebay with questions, (or anyone else) but this has been proven to my satisfaction and that is all I have to say about this topic.
Jax
Jack,
It was proven which way to your satisfaction? It was proven that Tammy really did have a store because Fran coughed up PDF's of the web pages that prove it?
The reason I ask that question is that your response could be interpreted to mean that you think that it has been proven that there never was a store, but that really can't be, since I have yet to see any response to the question of eBay not maintaining searchable records for stores going back beyond a certain point.
Hence the confusion as to your meaning.
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My husband is attending the ASI Convention this year. Unfortunately, circumstances made it impossible for me to attend with him. He said he has been blessed by the experience and especially commented that there are some really good speakers and he wished I could have been there, too.
Sera wish you not have to be separated from husband again too. :)
Remember story about Fiscalinis you write?
You say Fiscalinis you friends and tell you story and answer you questions.
He there too. Friend say he say wife sick and could not go too.
Friend say Danny Shelton talking to Pastor Fiscalini about Kris in front of people in aisle of ASI convention so friend hear what they say.
That is all. :)
Sera, Sister's reason's for not going to the ASI convention and Mrs. Fiscalini's reasons are very different. Mrs Fiscalini was not at ASI for two reasons: she is still walking on crutches after an accident she had a few months ago and secondly it was a business trip for her husband. He and another pastor were there on a business trip as representatives from the Swiss Conference. Neither of the two pastor's wives were with them.
Sister's reason for not being there is too obvious to mention...
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Grandma, your sarcasm is not really necessary here. Does it make you feel better?
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GrandmaNettie, it hasn't been edited by the administrators, so draw your own conclusions. When I think of your posts at AdventTalk, I am reminded of a hamster running on a wheel in a cage: going full speed, it never gets anywhere. It just continues to sin spin it's wheel under the watchful eye of those who feed it. But unlike hamster who receives nourishment as a reward, all you get is surmising and false information:
:hamster: Keep spinning your wheel GrandmaNettie, although you are not getting anywhere, hopefully it gives you pleasure.
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I've been traveling and come back to see this post to GrandmaNettie. Rather chaps my hide, Sister, coming from one who represents herself as a Christian who is calling for a cleansing of sin from the 3abn camp. Have noticed that from one or two others here, as well. And yes, I was lurking earlier and saw GrandmaNettie's post before it was deleted.
Sometimes edits take awhile, but you are correct; it may never be edited.
As far as not getting anywhere... yes, I know. Sometimes, no matter how hard one attempts to point to the actual facts and proper reasoning, it seems to fall on deaf ears.
When this is all over, and one day it most assuredly will be, it will be abundantly clear who has been spinning.
==inappropriate content removed==
GrandmaNettie, it hasn't been edited by the administrators, so draw your own conclusions. When I think of your posts at AdventTalk, I am reminded of a hamster running on a wheel in a cage: going full speed, it never gets anywhere. It just continues to sin spin it's wheel under the watchful eye of those who feed it. But unlike hamster who receives nourishment as a reward, all you get is surmising and false information:
:hamster: Keep spinning your wheel GrandmaNettie, although you are not getting anywhere, hopefully it gives you pleasure.
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Edited by Artiste
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So Petunia, what famous Christian do you think this was written about?
"***, adopting that cool tone of contempt and cutting and homely language so familiar to him, said, 'I slap your spirit on the snout.' "
I found that quote years ago in a book Ellen White highly recommended. If that gentleman were able to post here today and were to say something like that, what would you say to him? How would you treat him?
One more, the second being from the mystery writer:
" 'In like manner we excommunicate and curse all those who intercept any provisions on their passage to our city of Rome.'
" 'He snarls and snaps, like a dog that fears his bone will be taken from him.' "
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Was reading the other day from the New International Version of the Bible. This is a note on Matthew 23: 24-28 "The Pharisees, who literally strained water through a cloth to filter out unclean gnats, could hardly miss the point of Jesus' biting humor. Jesus was not attacking them for being strict per se, but rather for fixating on trivial matters while ignoring more important issues: justice, mercy, faithfulness. He blasted their smug, hypocritical sense of superiority." NIV (italics and bold mine) Jesus wasn't a mealy mouthed wimp. Don't think He would think that most of the issues discussed on these threads are trivial. He said he hated divorce and the hurting of children.
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What about Nehemiah?
"So I gave them a warning. I called curses down on them. I beat some of them up. I pulled their hair out.
I made them take an oath in God's name. I said, "You must promise not to give your daughters to be married to their sons. You must promise not to let their daughters marry your sons. And you must not marry their daughters either..." (New Intenational Reader's Version)
How would his actions and words be regarded?
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So Petunia, what famous Christian do you think this was written about?
"***, adopting that cool tone of contempt and cutting and homely language so familiar to him, said, 'I slap your spirit on the snout.' "
I found that quote years ago in a book Ellen White highly recommended. If that gentleman were able to post here today and were to say something like that, what would you say to him? How would you treat him?
One more, the second being from the mystery writer:
" 'In like manner we excommunicate and curse all those who intercept any provisions on their passage to our city of Rome.'
" 'He snarls and snaps, like a dog that fears his bone will be taken from him.' "
I'm not Petunia but my guess is Martin Luther. :rabbit:
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So Petunia, what famous Christian do you think this was written about?
"***, adopting that cool tone of contempt and cutting and homely language so familiar to him, said, 'I slap your spirit on the snout.' "
I found that quote years ago in a book Ellen White highly recommended. If that gentleman were able to post here today and were to say something like that, what would you say to him? How would you treat him?
One more, the second being from the mystery writer:
" 'In like manner we excommunicate and curse all those who intercept any provisions on their passage to our city of Rome.'
" 'He snarls and snaps, like a dog that fears his bone will be taken from him.' "
I don't know about Petunia, but I know what would I say to him. How about Proverbs 14:12:
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Could I say something to him I'd beg him to fall on his knees and ask forgiveness for his part in bringing about the deaths of so many souls. He rightly broke away from the twisted theology of the papal system, but he, like some today on their "self-righteous" crusades, diverted from the march for truth under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and fell into step behind the father of lies.
A few well-chosen moves do not a stellar example make. The whole must be considered before patterning one's character and strategy after such a man. Far more safe to look to the unerring pattern of our Savior, IMO.
FromMartin Luther's dirty little book: (http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm)
Unfortunately few popular books on Luther go into detail about Luther's anti-Jewishness, or even mention that he had a hatred for Jews at all. This has resulted in a biased outlook towards Martin Luther and Christianity. This unawareness of Luther's sinister side, while honoring his "righteousness" leads to a ratcheting promotion of Luther which supports a "good" public image while also transporting his Jewish beliefs to those who carry the seeds of anti-Semitism. This will present an unwanted dilemma for many Christians because Luther represents the birth of Protestant Christianity as well as the genesis of the special brand of Jewish hatred that flourished only in Germany.
Although Luther did not invent anti-Jewishness, he promoted it to a level never before seen in Europe. Luther bore the influence of his upbringing and from anti-Jewish theologians such as Lyra, Burgensis, (and John Chrysostom, before them). But Luther's 1543 book, "On the Jews and their lies" took Jewish hatred to a new level when he proposed to set fire to their synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbad them to pray or teach, or even to utter God's name. Luther wanted to "be rid of them" and requested that the government and ministers deal with the problem. He requested pastors and preachers to follow his example of issuing warnings against the Jews. He goes so far as to claim that "We are at fault in not slaying them" for avenging the death of Jesus Christ. Hitler's Nazi government in the 1930s and 40s fit Luther's desires to a tee.
I would encourage all to read this entire article. It is quite illuminating! Others in the early 20th century also patterned their behavior after Martin Luther. The article covers this in some detail.
If this is the man some of you choose to adopt as a mentor, an example of how to treat others, one has to wonder if you will soon be calling for the burning of buildings at 3abn. Some of you are already aptly modeling his "sinister" side quite well.
Once again, Proverbs 14:12:
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Jax- just speaking for himself and/or any precious flower...
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So Jack, if it were up to you, would you recommend to Ellen White that she write her chapters in GC differently about Martin Luther?
Did Luther ever call someone a liar ten or twenty different ways, and never give an example of a single lie they told? Have you gotten on anyman's case for doing that?
And have you gotten on anyone's case for condemning me for being a fundamentalist Protestant, for being so-called anti-Catholic, for believing that the pope is the antichrist of Scripture like the Missouri Synod does?
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So Jack, if it were up to you, would you recommend to Ellen White that she write her chapters in GC differently about Martin Luther?
Did Luther ever call someone a liar ten or twenty different ways, and never give an example of a single lie they told? Have you gotten on anyman's case for doing that?
And have you gotten on anyone's case for condemning me for being a fundamentalist Protestant, for being so-called anti-Catholic, for believing that the pope is the antichrist of Scripture like the Missouri Synod does?
You mean like when she wrote this?
THE Reformation did not, as many suppose, end with Luther. It is to be continued to the close of this world's history. Luther had a great work to do in reflecting to others the light which God had permitted to shine upon him; yet he did not receive all the light which was to be given to the world. From that time to this, new light has been continually shining upon the Scriptures, and new truths have been constantly unfolding.
Luther and his co-laborers accomplished a noble work for God; but, coming as they did from the Roman Church, having themselves believed and advocated her doctrines, it was not to be expected that they would discern all these errors. It was their work to break the fetters of Rome and to give the Bible to the world; yet there were important truths which they failed to discover, and grave errors which they did not renounce...
I think she wrote it just fine.
Moving to 3abnTalk now.
Good-bye
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Well, Jack, you seemed to have dodged my questions. Ellen White in GC did not blast Martin Luther like you did. Do you think she should have condemned him in the manner that you did?
Have you gotten on anyman's case yet?
Have you gotten on the case yet of whichever 3ABN defender was responsible for condemning me for being a fundamentalist Protestant, for being so-called anti-Catholic, for believing that the pope is the antichrist of Scripture like the Missouri Synod does?
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By the way, when folks look down on the Jews they forget that they are simply a microcosm of us all. If people think that the Jews have suffered the wrath of God for their sins, they need to remember that what they think the Jews have suffered is what all the rejecters of God's grace shall eventually receive.
I think that it is about time after 2000 years that the Jews as a whole repudiate their bogus chronology which differs so radically from Ussher even though both are supposed to be based on the Masoretic text.
Why is the Jewish year this year 5769 (the number of years since creation) instead of something closer to 6000? Because the rabbis long ago decided that the 490 year prophecy of Daniel 9 stretched from the destruction of the first temple to the destruction of the second temple instead of from Artaxerxes' decree to the Messiah. Thus the 70 weeks go from around 421 BC to around 70 AD.
But putting Nebuchadnezzar's destroying Jerusalem around 421 BC instead of around 587/586 BC vaporizes roughly 166 years of history. Add 166 to 5769 and you end up with 5935, which is a reasonable age of the earth based on the Masoretic text and close enough to Ussher to make sense.
In order to justify the resulting short Persian kingdom when the temple's destruction is placed in 421 BC, I believe I read in the Talmud the idea that Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes in Ezra 6:14 were all the same person. I thought that was actually a more reasonable idea than the idea that Esther was the wife of Mordecai, or something like that.
All Jewish chronological authorities should know and acknowledge the bogus nature of the 5769 year date. So why don't they correct it? Simply to avoid drawing attention to other possible interpretations of the 70 weeks?
But then again, the Jews aren't any different than the rest of us. There are a lot of examples of various groups sticking with their long-accepted traditions even though they know they are wrong.
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I was wondering why the Jewish year was 5769.
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Unfortunately few popular books on Luther go into detail about Luther's anti-Jewishness, or even mention that he had a hatred for Jews at all. This has resulted in a biased outlook towards Martin Luther and Christianity. This unawareness of Luther's sinister side, while honoring his "righteousness" leads to a ratcheting promotion of Luther which supports a "good" public image while also transporting his Jewish beliefs to those who carry the seeds of anti-Semitism. This will present an unwanted dilemma for many Christians because Luther represents the birth of Protestant Christianity as well as the genesis of the special brand of Jewish hatred that flourished only in Germany.
Although Luther did not invent anti-Jewishness, he promoted it to a level never before seen in Europe. Luther bore the influence of his upbringing and from anti-Jewish theologians such as Lyra, Burgensis, (and John Chrysostom, before them). But Luther's 1543 book, "On the Jews and their lies" took Jewish hatred to a new level when he proposed to set fire to their synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbad them to pray or teach, or even to utter God's name. Luther wanted to "be rid of them" and requested that the government and ministers deal with the problem. He requested pastors and preachers to follow his example of issuing warnings against the Jews. He goes so far as to claim that "We are at fault in not slaying them" for avenging the death of Jesus Christ. Hitler's Nazi government in the 1930s and 40s fit Luther's desires to a tee.
I would encourage all to read this entire article. It is quite illuminating! Others in the early 20th century also patterned their behavior after Martin Luther. The article covers this in some detail.
If this is the man some of you choose to adopt as a mentor, an example of how to treat others, one has to wonder if you will soon be calling for the burning of buildings at 3abn. Some of you are already aptly modeling his "sinister" side quite well.
Once again, Proverbs 14:12:
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Jax- just speaking for himself and/or any precious flower...
Jax: this is a very interesting and informing quote regarding Martin Luther. While it shows a very uncomplimentary picture of a man revered by most Protestants, this does not in any way negate his focus on the scriptural truths he hilighted in his '95 Theses' nailed to the door of the German :oops: well, whatever building he used :scratch:, which, I believe, is your point in sharing this info. Thanks :TY:
It also goes to show the growth factor of new understanding of the times in which he wrote and our acceptance of the message for us in today's world as well as discernment of new light which we are told may come our way. Hopefully we are not so stubborn as to reject that new light when it does not totally conform to the 'way we have always understood it.'
GrammieT :thumbsup:
By the way, when folks look down on the Jews they forget that they are simply a microcosm of us all. If people think that the Jews have suffered the wrath of God for their sins, they need to remember that what they think the Jews have suffered is what all the rejecters of God's grace shall eventually receive.
I think that it is about time after 2000 years that the Jews as a whole repudiate their bogus chronology which differs so radically from Ussher even though both are supposed to be based on the Masoretic text.
Why is the Jewish year this year 5769 (the number of years since creation) instead of something closer to 6000? Because the rabbis long ago decided that the 490 year prophecy of Daniel 9 stretched from the destruction of the first temple to the destruction of the second temple instead of from Artaxerxes' decree to the Messiah. Thus the 70 weeks go from around 421 BC to around 70 AD.
But putting Nebuchadnezzar's destroying Jerusalem around 421 BC instead of around 587/586 BC vaporizes roughly 166 years of history. Add 166 to 5769 and you end up with 5935, which is a reasonable age of the earth based on the Masoretic text and close enough to Ussher to make sense.
In order to justify the resulting short Persian kingdom when the temple's destruction is placed in 421 BC, I believe I read in the Talmud the idea that Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes in Ezra 6:14 were all the same person. I thought that was actually a more reasonable idea than the idea that Esther was the wife of Mordecai, or something like that.
All Jewish chronological authorities should know and acknowledge the bogus nature of the 5769 year date. So why don't they correct it? Simply to avoid drawing attention to other possible interpretations of the 70 weeks?
But then again, the Jews aren't any different than the rest of us. There are a lot of examples of various groups sticking with their long-accepted traditions even though they know they are wrong.
Bob: The information given above is also very interesting and goes a long way to helping us understand some of the chronological questions brought to mind in the calendar differences we see, as well as explaining how we can more intelligently discuss our understanding of the prophecies and how they relate to Jewish negatives to accepting Jesus as the Messiah. Very helpful. :goodpost:
Again: :TY:
GrammieT :dogwag:
Hey, Snoopy! I got the quote usage stuff pretty good here, huh? :hot: :pals: :TY:
Peoplies: Ya gots ta use the icon with the little yellow quote page in the second line of the usage icons in the Post Reply box! Get it? :rabbit:
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Bob: The information given above is also very interesting and goes a long way to helping us understand some of the chronological questions brought to mind in the calendar differences we see, as well as explaining how we can more intelligently discuss our understanding of the prophecies and how they relate to Jewish negatives to accepting Jesus as the Messiah. Very helpful. :goodpost:
Again: :TY:
GrammieT :dogwag:
Your very welcome.
I wondered why the Jewish year was so different from Ussher, and had trouble finding out why. An ultra-orthodox Jewish leader didn't seem to know. A reformed Jewish rabbi didn't know. But a Christian fellow that considers himself an expert on chronology did know and told me why, and then I forgot what he told me and had to rediscover it.
But Ben Zion Wacholder of Hebrew Union College, if I recall correctly, pinpointed the problem in one of his papers.
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Very interesting, Bob.
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Perfect, GrammieT!! You are one smart cookie!!
Hey, Snoopy! I got the quote usage stuff pretty good here, huh? :hot: :pals: :TY:
Peoplies: Ya gots ta use the icon with the little yellow quote page in the second line of the usage icons in the Post Reply box! Get it? :rabbit: