Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Bob Pickle on April 09, 2008, 09:33:14 AM
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I was informed again today that Remnant will not provide us with one single piece of paper unless we file a motion to compel.
Kind of ridiculous, isn't it? I don't understand why any supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church would behave that way. A lawsuit accuses us of stating certain things about the royalties Remnant paid Danny, and then Remnant refuses to provide any documentation regarding that. Why in the world would they do such a thing?
It's a disgrace for any ministry to pull these kind of pranks.
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Don''t you think it is actually quite telling? If they had nothing to hide, why not rush to comply and set the record straight? I think the whole mess is a disgrace! Is it safe to assume you will be filing the motion to compel?
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Bob,
Did they give a reason why they wouldn't provide?
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Don''t you think it is actually quite telling? If they had nothing to hide, why not rush to comply and set the record straight? I think the whole mess is a disgrace! Is it safe to assume you will be filing the motion to compel?
I'd say that's safe.
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Bob,
Did they give a reason why they wouldn't provide?
Yes. Overbroad. Burdensome. Financial information of a proprietary nature.
So I talked to the attorney today and told him that none of those reasons prevent him from producing documents pertaining to the royalty payments Remnant paid Danny. But he doesn't care. He said I have to file a motion to compel.
Dwight Hall told me that they wouldn't make it hard for us to get the information we need, so I have a question for Dwight Hall: Did you lie to me?
And this is all about the royalties paid on a book about the 10 Commandments.
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Bob Pickle: Dwight Hall: Did you lie to me?
Dwight Hall: No, I hired a lawyer to do it for me...I can't afford to expose the truth...did you see what we made last year?
Gailon Arthur Joy
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As we work on a motion to compel, I wonder if Dwight Hall realizes the significance of going this route. Laying out the documented evidence in court documents is not the best way to keep everything hush hush. It would draw much less attention to the facts if he just let us have what we need.
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As we work on a motion to compel, I wonder if Dwight Hall realizes the significance of going this route. Laying out the documented evidence in court documents is not the best way to keep everything hush hush. It would draw much less attention to the facts if he just let us have what we need.
Dwight has a "FULLY VESTED INTEREST"..."where a man's heart is...". Dwight has chosen his course and you recall that old adage??? Bird's of a feather..."?
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Bob Pickle: Dwight Hall: Did you lie to me?
Dwight Hall: No, I hired a lawyer to do it for me...I can't afford to expose the truth...did you see what we made last year?
Gailon Arthur Joy
:ROFL:
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It is time to move forward and get Remnant to produce the evidence. Take the checking accounts information, add the data from the Remnant Publications Documents and throw in a mix of the information that we must compel from the auditors, then the financial experts will be very busy!!!
Then the lawyers have to decide who to sue, for what and when.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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It is time to move forward and get Remnant to produce the evidence. Take the checking accounts information, add the data from the Remnant Publications Documents and throw in a mix of the information that we must compel from the auditors, then the financial experts will be very busy!!!
Then the lawyers have to decide who to sue, for what and when.
Gailon Arthur Joy
Is that the 3ABN lawyers?
Who would be in their line of sight to sue?
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It is time to move forward and get Remnant to produce the evidence. Take the checking accounts information, add the data from the Remnant Publications Documents and throw in a mix of the information that we must compel from the auditors, then the financial experts will be very busy!!!
Then the lawyers have to decide who to sue, for what and when.
Gailon Arthur Joy
Is that the 3ABN lawyers?
Who would be in their line of sight to sue?
The 3ABN Lawyers will be plenty busy, but they are not the subject of this statement. I think I have made it clear for some time that there are a variety of claims that have not been resolved. Gilley and the present board have made it abundantly clear they will not address them and ASI has opted out...therefore the Civil Courts are the alternative forum.
Since they find the civil arena such a terriffic place to take up their cases these days, it seems only fitting to accomodate these miscreants of due process and justice...give em what they want!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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It is time to move forward and get Remnant to produce the evidence. Take the checking accounts information, add the data from the Remnant Publications Documents and throw in a mix of the information that we must compel from the auditors, then the financial experts will be very busy!!!
Then the lawyers have to decide who to sue, for what and when.
Gailon Arthur Joy
Is that the 3ABN lawyers?
Who would be in their line of sight to sue?
The 3ABN Lawyers will be plenty busy, but they are not the subject of this statement. I think I have made it clear for some time that there are a variety of claims that have not been resolved. Gilley and the present board have made it abundantly clear they will not address them and ASI has opted out...therefore the Civil Courts are the alternative forum.
Since they find the civil arena such a terriffic place to take up their cases these days, it seems only fitting to accomodate these miscreants of due process and justice...give em what they want!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Whatever it takes!
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You know the old saying, be careful what you ask for as you just may get it!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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You know the old saying, be careful what you ask for as you just may get it!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
:amen:
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This may have been answered before, but I did not see it, how long will it be before some of these civil suits against 3ABN or DS???
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That, unfortunately, is not our call. If it were, yesterday would be the day.
Just ask Pickle.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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This may have been answered before, but I did not see it, how long will it be before some of these civil suits against 3ABN or DS???
Reader,
I can tell you this, the civil enforcement action to enforce the subpoena against Remnant Publications has been drafted and is being served and filed with the US District Court in Michigan.
Next comes the enforcement of the subpoena for the auditor in the Illinois district Court.
Then there will be a bunch of miscellaneous third party subpoenas that will need to be served and
most likley enforced, one at a time.
This will be supporting evidence and clarify the picture for experts and for the inevitable jury presentation.
I trust this clarifies where we are at this point in time.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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This may have been answered before, but I did not see it, how long will it be before some of these civil suits against 3ABN or DS???
Reader,
I can tell you this, the civil enforcement action to enforce the subpoena against Remnant Publications has been drafted and is being served and filed with the US District Court in Michigan.
Next comes the enforcement of the subpoena for the auditor in the Illinois district Court.
Then there will be a bunch of miscellaneous third party subpoenas that will need to be served and
most likley enforced, one at a time.
This will be supporting evidence and clarify the picture for experts and for the inevitable jury presentation.
I trust this clarifies where we are at this point in time.
Gailon Arthur Joy
Thank you for this explanation Gailon. It also demonstrates why legal procedures take so long to have an outcome. I had not understood all this background stuff. :TY:
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Magistrate Judge Ellen Carmody on July 28 denied Remnant's motion to reconsider her previous order that Remnant produce documents to us instead of under seal to Magistrate Judge Hillman.
Today Remnant appealed that decision, and paid $455 to do so.
What are Remnant and Dwight Hall trying to hide?
Do donors to Remnant think this is a good way to spend their money?
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Actually, I would say you have been the one wasting the money - and I am guessing none of it yours (see banner at bottom of page and all legal bills of third party subpoena victims). Remnant is doing what it can to end your lies, innuendo, prevarication, falsehood, fib, fiction, inveracity, misrepresentation, tale, untruth, fabulation, fabrication, falsehood, hyperbole, mendacity, pseudology, roorback, subreption, subterfuge, forswearance, canard, tergiversation, deception, dishonesty, mis-statements.
Trying to hide? Nothing! They are doing all they can to insulate the ministries of God that you daily seek to bring to demise. Maybe you should follow suit and put your energies into the spreading of God's message of love, forgiveness, and salvation. Job endured, so will 3ABN, Danny, Remnant, Dwight, the 3ABN board, and ever other individual you have spent your time and other people's money defaming and harassing. Maybe if you didn't travel far and wide harassing people you might find a mission field in your own backyard.
Magistrate Judge Ellen Carmody on July 28 denied Remnant's motion to reconsider her previous order that Remnant produce documents to us instead of under seal to Magistrate Judge Hillman.
Today Remnant appealed that decision, and paid $455 to do so.
What are Remnant and Dwight Hall trying to hide?
Do donors to Remnant think this is a good way to spend their money?
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anyman,
Why not try to answer the question?
The lawsuit essentially accuses us of saying that Danny was trying to hide his royalties, and of saying that Danny did not disclose all his assets and income on his July 2006 financial affidavit, among other things.
3ABN's Form 990's and financial statements, and Remnant's Form 990's indicate that Nick Miller was likely correct when he said that Danny earned several hundred thousand dollars in royalties.
So we need the documents we've requested from Remnant, and the magistrate agreed. If what Nick Miller and other said was all lies, Remnant could simply produce the documents and put the questions to rest once and for all.
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anyman,
Your reply was highly inappropriate and unchristian. I think Jeanette would agree with me on that.
You've accused me of lying. Why not list what you think I've said that you think are lies?
- Did I lie when I said that Walt Thompson didn't contact any of Tommy's alleged victims?
- Did I lie when I said that Tommy was an alleged pedophile?
- Did I lie when I said that Nick said that he was fairly certain that Danny earned several hundred thousand dollars in royalties?
- Did I lie when I said that Hal Steenson said there was a recording?
- Did I lie when I said that Kevin Paulson said that Danny told him that Brandy had been chasing him for 17 years?
- Did I lie when I said that I've talked with 7 of Tommy's alleged victims and the mother of an 8th and an eye witness?
- Did I lie when I said that Mike Riva threatened Glenn Dryden with a lawsuit?
- Did I lie when I said that Gerald Duffy invoked common law copyright?
Name the lies you think I've told.
But really, your reply is totally inappropriate. Rather, you should take a stand for truth and righteousness and conservative Seventh-day Adventist principles, which supports the church's stance that dishonesty in business practices is grounds for church discipline. So misrepresentation in business matters is a serious thing, according to the world church.
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Further, unlike Danny et. al., I am not afraid to apologize and make things right. Christian courtesy demands that opportunities be given to do that privately regarding many matters. But I realize that Danny doesn't play that way.
This scandalous saga gives us an idea of what it was like in days of old, and what it will be like in the days ahead to take a stand for truth and righteousness. The Albigensians were accused by their persecutors of engaging in unseemly conduct, and then sacrificing the babies that resulted, and then burning them to ashes, and then eating the ashes as a special food. The early Christians were also accused of human sacrifices and/or cannibalism. Shall we expect any different today?
I fear that if persecution were to start in earnest, many Adventists would simply disappear to escape ridicule and privation.
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Actually, I would say you have been the one wasting the money - and I am guessing none of it yours (see banner at bottom of page and all legal bills of third party subpoena victims). Maybe a job and some prayer and Bible study will get you back on track.[b] Remnant is doing what it can[/b] to end your lies, innuendo, prevarication, falsehood, fib, fiction, inveracity, misrepresentation, tale, untruth, fabulation, fabrication, falsehood, hyperbole, mendacity, pseudology, roorback, subreption, subterfuge, forswearance, canard, tergiversation, deception, dishonesty, mis-statements.
Anyman
You speak as if you are the person representing Remnant. :scratch:
You sound that you are answering as if you are the person implicated in this saga. :hot:
Now, how could that be? :dunno:
Looks like you've been poring over a dictionary in your anger also! One correction though. Should that read "confabulation" rather than "fabulation"? :help:
Got to get it right Mate, when you're dealing with legal stuff. :ROFL:
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Remnant could simply produce the documents and put the questions to rest once and for all.
As evidenced by your misrepresentation of emails and information over the past two years I think of many reasons why they wouldn't want to give you anything - and none of them have to do with hiding anything. You hae misrepresented, put words in peoples mouths they never uttered on numerous occasions over the past two years and many have taken you to task for it . . . yet you always make a rousing attempt at justifying your actions always trying to cloak yourself in righteous robes. Maybe if you didn't edit, insinuate, and misrepresent the information that lands in your lap people would give you what you demanded.
Often you walk a very fine line between outright lies and defensible comments - however, the discerning juror will know the difference.
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If wishes were -phishes- we'd all have a fry, eh, Oz?
It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to see what is happening - a little common sense and an understanding of the Spanish Inquisition methods of Mr. Robert Pickle, and Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy allows one to understand why Remnant continues on course.
As to your "correction" . . . here is a little elucidation: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=fabulation
Maybe down under the word no longer exists, but for now, the dictionary still contains the word.
Anyman
You speak as if you are the person representing Remnant. :scratch:
You sound that you are answering as if you are the person implicated in this saga. :hot:
Now, how could that be? :dunno:
Looks like you've been poring over a dictionary in your anger also! One correction though. Should that read "confabulation" rather than "fabulation"? :help:
Got to get it right Mate, when you're dealing with legal stuff. [/b] :ROFL:
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You love to take every opportunity to spew your nonsense don't you. They say that if someone repeats something long enough to themselves - they eventually believe it is the truth . . . NLP tactics again? . . .
anyman,
Your reply was highly inappropriate and unchristian. I think Jeanette would agree with me on that.
You've accused me of lying. Why not list what you think I've said that you think are lies?
- Did I lie when I said that Walt Thompson didn't contact any of Tommy's alleged victims?
- Did I lie when I said that Tommy was an alleged pedophile?
- Did I lie when I said that Nick said that he was fairly certain that Danny earned several hundred thousand dollars in royalties?
- Did I lie when I said that Hal Steenson said there was a recording?
- Did I lie when I said that Kevin Paulson said that Danny told him that Brandy had been chasing him for 17 years?
- Did I lie when I said that I've talked with 7 of Tommy's alleged victims and the mother of an 8th and an eye witness?
- Did I lie when I said that Mike Riva threatened Glenn Dryden with a lawsuit?
- Did I lie when I said that Gerald Duffy invoked common law copyright?
Name the lies you think I've told.
But really, your reply is totally inappropriate. Rather, you should take a stand for truth and righteousness and conservative Seventh-day Adventist principles, which supports the church's stance that dishonesty in business practices is grounds for church discipline. So misrepresentation in business matters is a serious thing, according to the world church.
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Generally speaking fighting a motion to produce documents falls into two categories 1. You have information in those documents that either prove the other parties contentions or the documents reveal incriminating evidence on other issues and possibly a combination of those two. 2. You want to wear down the other party by a. Costing them money and time by fighting senseless motions b. Get the other party frustrated c. Stalling preventing other party from making their case
d. Prevent the other party from the information because it might affect another ongoing case. :hamster:
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Maybe if you didn't edit, insinuate, and misrepresent the information that lands in your lap people would give you what you demanded.
Examples? Got any?
It's interesting that the Plaintiffs made the same claim around May 2007, but I don't recall them ever giving any examples either. You'd think that they would have come up with at least one by now.
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I give you an opportunity to back up what you said, and you refuse to take me up on it.
The only conclusion that can be drawn is that you out and out lied when you accused me of lying. What else can be concluded when you can't give a single example to support your claim?
And how is anything that I said nonsense? Are you trying to say that Walt did contact some of Tommy's alleged victims when he said that he didn't? Are you trying to say that Riva never threatened Dryden, or that his letter was actually forged? Are you trying to say that Hal Steenson never told me that there was a recording? Etc.? Etc.?
What exactly are you trying to say when you accuse me of speaking nonsense?
You love to take every opportunity to spew your nonsense don't you. They say that if someone repeats something long enough to themselves - they eventually believe it is the truth . . . NLP tactics again? . . .
anyman,
Your reply was highly inappropriate and unchristian. I think Jeanette would agree with me on that.
You've accused me of lying. Why not list what you think I've said that you think are lies?
- Did I lie when I said that Walt Thompson didn't contact any of Tommy's alleged victims?
- Did I lie when I said that Tommy was an alleged pedophile?
- Did I lie when I said that Nick said that he was fairly certain that Danny earned several hundred thousand dollars in royalties?
- Did I lie when I said that Hal Steenson said there was a recording?
- Did I lie when I said that Kevin Paulson said that Danny told him that Brandy had been chasing him for 17 years?
- Did I lie when I said that I've talked with 7 of Tommy's alleged victims and the mother of an 8th and an eye witness?
- Did I lie when I said that Mike Riva threatened Glenn Dryden with a lawsuit?
- Did I lie when I said that Gerald Duffy invoked common law copyright?
Name the lies you think I've told.
But really, your reply is totally inappropriate. Rather, you should take a stand for truth and righteousness and conservative Seventh-day Adventist principles, which supports the church's stance that dishonesty in business practices is grounds for church discipline. So misrepresentation in business matters is a serious thing, according to the world church.
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But really, your reply is totally inappropriate. Rather, you should take a stand for truth and righteousness and conservative Seventh-day Adventist principles, which supports the church's stance that dishonesty in business practices is grounds for church discipline. So misrepresentation in business matters is a serious thing, according to the world church.
It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to see what is happening - a little common sense and an understanding of the Spanish Inquisition methods of Mr. Robert Pickle, and Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy allows one to understand why Remnant continues on course.
I noticed that Breezy over on 3ABNtalk has called for church discipline against me for lying. Such a call demonstrates to what lengths this apostasy is going, and how more and more the 3ABN defenders are sounding like Rome of old.
Unlike Danny et. al., neither Gailon nor I have called for the elimination of due process as existed in the inquisition. Neither Gailon nor I have called for procedures in harmony with canon law instead of English and American common law. Neither Gailon nor I have called for extreme secrecy. Unlike the Danny clones, neither Gailon nor I have condemned the other side for promoting the idea that the pope is the antichrist.
But we have Breezy over there calling for church discipline against me for lying when the Danny clones have yet to give any examples of any lies I have told. I must be disciplined for lying. Why? Because they say so. And all must bow to their authority and simply accept their assertions as fact without any evidence to that effect.
What will be next in this sorry saga?
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Is Remnant Publications missing at the ASI Convention? They were very visable last year. Why the silence this year?
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I don't know. I would assume they are there, but you don't think they are?
By the way, I'd love to get a program booklet. Can someone get me one?
Steffan came up with what he claims is an example of Gailon lying when he did not mention someone that reported something to the IRS earlier than the fall of 2006. But I'd have a difficult time calling that a lie, and still no examples of me "lying" yet.
But it was pretty smart of the 3ABN defenders to remove the condemnations of my being a fundamentalist Protestant!
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Trying to hide? Nothing! They are doing all they can to insulate the ministries of God that you daily seek to bring to demise. Maybe you should follow suit and put your energies into the spreading of God's message of love, forgiveness, and salvation. Job endured, so will 3ABN, Danny, Remnant, Dwight, the 3ABN board, and ever other individual you have spent your time and other people's money defaming and harassing. Maybe if you didn't travel far and wide harassing people you might find a mission field in your own backyard.
Magistrate Judge Ellen Carmody on July 28 denied Remnant's motion to reconsider her previous order that Remnant produce documents to us instead of under seal to Magistrate Judge Hillman.
Today Remnant appealed that decision, and paid $455 to do so.
What are Remnant and Dwight Hall trying to hide?
Do donors to Remnant think this is a good way to spend their money?
Wendall: Generally speaking fighting a motion to produce documents falls into two categories 1. You have information in those documents that either prove the other parties contentions or the documents reveal incriminating evidence on other issues and possibly a combination of those two. 2. You want to wear down the other party by a. Costing them money and time by fighting senseless motions b. Get the other party frustrated c. Stalling preventing other party from making their case
d. Prevent the other party from the information because it might affect another ongoing case.
Anyman, if they have nothing to hide, and we now have even more evidence they do, then they should produce the documents for the world to see...declare themselves exonerated and keep on ministering.
BUt they do and Wendall's summation is the only summation worthy of digesting!!! They cannot afford to open the books as it will cost them and their client, DLS, substantially!!! SO they fight a loosing battle but a battle none the less...and as long as they resist, we will persist!!!
By the way, did you want to contribute so you can claim to be a supporter when they finally realize they are going to have to SING??? Then you could have dogs o both sides of the fight!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Is there any update to what is going on in relation to them providing or not providing the requested documents?
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The judge may render a decision on the appeal this week. Haven't heard anything back yet.
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It is done. The Michigan Judge has affirmed the order to produce.
Massachusetts has ordered us to send revised requests to produce and has denied the Motion for Scope and Relevance protection. Therefore, one must assume the judge in Illinois will now have to take up the question of enforcing our subpoena there. The auditors records are clearly relevant and we should be able to get in there sometime in the early fall.
The bank statements now need to be evaluated and put together with the auditors records and the 990's, etc and we should be ready for depositions. Remnant must also produce and we need to move to amend to include DLS Publishing and D&L publishing.
Danny also must produce documents in the Illinois Marital Asset case as well!!! And for once in his life, he will have to produce the same documents for all the courts or guess what? REAL TROUBLE!!!
In summary, IT IS PRODUCTION TIME!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Uh-oh.
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Here goes that attorney bill on a upward movement. It appears money is no object for the plaintiff. Every motion, every trip to court is dollars. I wonder how much has been spent by the plaintiff in attorney bills. :dunno: Keep that calculator handy. :o
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Ah - donor dollars at work. How sad.
Here goes that attorney bill on a upward movement. It appears money is no object for the plaintiff. Every motion, every trip to court is dollars. I wonder how much has been spent by the plaintiff in attorney bills. :dunno: Keep that calculator handy. :o
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OPM is the best way to fund any project, just ask wall street!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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It is interesting to read the life of Jesus in the four gospels. He lived and taught concepts that were so appealing to the human spirit that intelligent people have marketed them broadly under the name of "spreading the gospel" ever since his death. Money and/or power have been at the root of most of Christianity for all but 33 years of its existence. Use of Jesus name and words to justify actions that in no way reflect him is pretty much what history tells us to expect of people and organizations whose "ministry" is simply one of words. Yes, there are shining examples of Christianity in its purest form, but other than Mother Teresa most of those will never be known. They do what they do without a thought of money or power and many of them will come into life and leave it without giving a single bible study, doing any music CDs, hosting any talk shows, preaching any evangelistic seminars, writing any books, donating a single dime to any televangelist or church... they simply help people in a real way like Jesus did. It was once said by a man surrounded by the effects of the evangelists and bible thumpers of his time that "The word 'Christianity' is already a misunderstanding - in reality there has been only one Christian, and he died on the Cross."
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So well said, and so completely true. Thank you Habanero.
It is interesting to read the life of Jesus in the four gospels. He lived and taught concepts that were so appealing to the human spirit that intelligent people have marketed them broadly under the name of "spreading the gospel" ever since his death. Money and/or power have been at the root of most of Christianity for all but 33 years of its existence. Use of Jesus name and words to justify actions that in no way reflect him is pretty much what history tells us to expect of people and organizations whose "ministry" is simply one of words. Yes, there are shining examples of Christianity in its purest form, but other than Mother Teresa most of those will never be known. They do what they do without a thought of money or power and many of them will come into life and leave it without giving a single bible study, doing any music CDs, hosting any talk shows, preaching any evangelistic seminars, writing any books, donating a single dime to any televangelist or church... they simply help people in a real way like Jesus did. It was once said by a man surrounded by the effects of the evangelists and bible thumpers of his time that "The word 'Christianity' is already a misunderstanding - in reality there has been only one Christian, and he died on the Cross."
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From the comments of Copr. 2008, Bruce N. Cameron, J.D on tomorrow's Sabbath School lesson:
"C. Read Daniel 1:11-13. What kind of attitude does Daniel show towards his Babylonian captors?
"1. What lesson do you find in this for the time when you face religious freedom problems? (I have clients who think it is part of their witness to "punch" the "opposition" in the nose. Daniel shows just the opposite behavior. Bible-based emotional intelligence requires being polite and as inoffensive as possible. No insults. No attacks. Seek religious accommodation with a kind spirit.)"
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Is there any update to what is going on in relation to them providing or not providing the requested documents?
That was a couple of years ago!
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Remnant caved and produced the documents on September 22, 2008. After examining them we believed that those documents provided us a basis for counterclaims against the attorneys, since they knew or should have known that the case was frivolous from the get go. They then dropped the case like a hot potato, trying to get the court to order us to surrender those documents to them, when there was no legal reason why we should have to. We therefore appealed.