Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: mrst53 on June 12, 2010, 10:14:48 AM
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Do you think that with the Pope's apology to those that have been molested by priests and promising to stop future pedophilia in the priesthood, will lead to the SDA's clery apoligizing also, or at least being more open to answering to those that have been molested? I know this is a long question. Do you think this will help with the trial coming up in July?
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I don't see SDA clergy apologizing anytime soon.
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I think SDA church leadership will continue to sweep problems like 3ABN, pedophilia, and non-biblical teachings in La Sierra University (with also "progressive" churches of the Pacific Union) under the rug until they are forced by some events to act otherwise.
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I just wonder if the trial in July might be just the beginning of the woes for not only Tommy Shelton but also for other people involved. Who knows where this will end? It is interesting to note that the same people are involved as those dealing with the Roman Catholic Church. Will they get at all the people who have tried to cover something up? In which way? Are we able to see warnings in what happened to the Roman Catholic church in damages paid? To what extend could this involve both the Church of God and the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or will the damages be limited to members of the board of 3ABN? How could this affect families, wives, children, grandchildren, or is there a way to keep this a secret in order to avoid family traumas?
The defending lawyer has just lost a case recently, according to information posted. And some of us recall the Simpson case where he was declared not guilty by the jury, and yet he had to pay considerable amounts in damage to the family.
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I don't see SDA clergy apologizing anytime soon.
Or a church of God pedophile, for that matter!
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I'm sorry, I forget that with Tommy's ties to the SDA that he was Church of God. Please forgive me. In fact, how did Tommy end up as a Church of God Minister and part of 3abn and not a minister of the SDA church? Pastor JB Wood is married to a former SDA member, whose father was a SDA minister.
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They would have to admit there was a problem first, Mrst53.
Do you think that with the Pope's apology to those that have been molested by priests and promising to stop future pedophilia in the priesthood, will lead to the SDA's clery apoligizing also, or at least being more open to answering to those that have been molested? I know this is a long question. Do you think this will help with the trial coming up in July?
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In fact, how did Tommy end up as a Church of God Minister and part of 3abn and not a minister of the SDA church?
One of the things Danny has been accused of is nepotism, to the point that he included that issue in the lawsuit against us.
When I tell some folks that Tommy is not an Adventist, they express surprise. Many 3ABN viewers never knew.
I think that the easiest explanation is that Tommy the alleged pedophile got a job at 3ABN in 2001 after being kicked out in 1991 because he's Danny's brother.
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Was Tommy raised Adventist?
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Was Tommy raised Adventist?
I have wondered that myself. My understanding is that he was not, but I really don't know. Perhaps Cindy or Tommy/Danny_Defender or Sam or anyman can tell us. Or maybe Sister can tell us.
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If I remember correctly, just like his other siblings (after their parents joined the SDA church), he was raised SDA. Having a gift for music, Tommy started playing with a gospel group from another denomination and traveling with them. After a while Tommy joined another denomination. My recollection may not be exact, but I believe that is what happened or something close along those lines. Please correct me if my memory has failed me.
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ok, that explains how he was involved in 3abn and was preaching in the Church of God.
Does the SDA demonination believe that you can lose your salvation?
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Absolutely you can lose it! There are no provisions "once saved, always saved".
a lot of people go into "saved" mode on emotions one day and change the next and right back to old habits and actions.
You can lose it by the "unpardonable sin" --that is rejecting the Holy Spirit when your conscience tells you truth and you ignore it.
A true Adventist progresses day by day their whole life and repent with unintential falls. A firm believer excerises what they believe in levels they understand. Some don't. An Adventist believes in the 10 commandments.
Most others believe that commandments are done away with or just keep 9 of them. But the end of Bible in REv. states to enter the gates will be those who will keep the commandments. It is easy when the mind is willing to trust and obey. and to a true Adventist the Sabbath is a day of rest with Jesus in mind. A day that is looked forward too.
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Does the SDA demonination believe that you can lose your salvation?
This is quite a challenging question. I'd say, "No, you cannot lose your salvation unless you decide to do that yourself!"
The greatest decision you make in your life is to let God himself through Jesus Christ, the WORD, and the Holy Spirit be the supreme Guide in your life. This is a challenging life that leads to eternal lilfe in Christ, and without Him there is no eternal life. Scripture makes it clear that only God is immortal. No other being in the universe is immortal, not even the angels, because some of them decided to follow Satan and become the tempting demons around us.
When even an angel can fall (Rev. 12 tells you that one third of the angels followed Satan, but thank God that there are two good angels to our rescue for every evil angel that attacks us) - when it is possible for them to fall, then it is also possible for man to fall.
So if a man gets tempted by a demon to be bad he cannot fall as long as he keeps a living connection with God. If he lets go - that is where the danger lies.
There is a way out: 1 John 1:9
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Our way back goes through forgiveness. But
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
So if we hide our sins and act as if we never sinned, then there is no chance to be saved.
Some think that it is often very difficult for the most conservative Christians to confess their sins. They'd rather hide them in order to make the appearance of being perfect.
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Johann,
those words were much better put for understanding but in my very simpleton quick northern country yankee talk and to the point I am understanding exactely as you put it. ;)
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I agree whole heartedly, Tanka!! Well said, Johann...You MUST let me know the next time you are here visiting.........
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Let me be more clear. If I have served the Lord faithfully and one day I stub my toe and I swear and take the Lord's name in vain. If in the next instant, I die, before I have a chance to ask for forgiveness, have I lost my salvation?
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Let me be more clear. If I have served the Lord faithfully and one day I stub my toe and I swear and take the Lord's name in vain. If in the next instant, I die, before I have a chance to ask for forgiveness, have I lost my salvation?
No, you have not lost your salvation...God is both just and merciful. Although He knows every act of your life, including the possible situation above, He looks at your life as a whole and sees the direction it has taken. In the example you have given above there is no opportunity to ask forgiveness for your sin. It is through the blood and sacrifice of Jesus Christ that we receive salvation. He without sin paid the price though giving his sinless life for our sinfull lives. When we accept Christ as our personal Savior, it is through his sacrifice that we can stand in the sight of God sinless. It is not by our works that we are saved---our works are evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit within our lives---we are saved through accepting the sacrifice that Jesus has made for us personally and acknowledging Him as our Savior.
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mrst53, in your opinion, will King Saul be in heaven, or is he a lost man?
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Bob, that is a hard question. Since before the coming of Jesus, those in the Old Testament were under the Law. They were expected to follow the Law to the letter and to take sacrifices to the Temple, but I also think they could still have a relationship with God. David did, Jonah did, and Abraham did. Saul was hard headed, always wanting to what he wanted to do. Yet, David was always told, Saul was "God's annointed". Even when Saul sought out a medium and brought up Samuel. Samuel told him that the next day - he and his sons would be with him. So if you take take the scriptures, saying over and over that Saul was annointed by God and if you take the medium scripture literally, then yes, King Saul would be in heaven. I had to do some studying on that one. Been a long time since I studied the life of King Saul. :TY:
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I think you are the first person I've asked that question of who has answered "Yes." Most people do not think he will be.
Since you answered yes, let me ask a different one: How about Judas? Do you think he will be in heaven?
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Bob,you really want me to study don't you? I don't think and never have that Judas believed Jesus would be condemned to death. I believe he thought Je sus would rise up against the Romans and set up a kingdom on earth. I just don't think he "got it" . At any rate once, he realized that Jesus was not going to do that, he returned the money to the priests and he was sorry for what he did-remorseful is what my translation says. Now, he committed suicide. In the Catholic Church that is a grave sin. Others believe that is an "unpardonable sin" because you can't ask for forgiveness. Hmmmm... But now we know that those who commit suicide are mentally ill. God would not condemn those who mentally ill.Judas was so remorseful, so depressed at what he had done, he probably was mentally ill at the time. So I would say yes, I think Judas will be in heaven. Had he not been sorry for turning Jesus in, that would be a different story, I think.
What do you think about King Saul and Judas?
I like discussing things with you.
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However, if I remember correctly he hung himself. Will this disqualify his enterance into Heaven? Some may argue that suicide is suicide. How is one to know?
-Edited to clarify--Bob,you really want me to study don't you? I don't think and never have that Judas believed Jesus would be condemned to death. I believe he thought Je sus would rise up against the Romans and set up a kingdom on earth. I just don't think he "got it" . At any rate once, he realized that Jesus was not going to do that, he returned the money to the priests and he was sorry for what he did-remorseful is what my translation says. Now, he committed suicide. In the Catholic Church that is a grave sin. Others believe that is an "unpardonable sin" because you can't ask for forgiveness. Hmmmm... But now we know that those who commit suicide are mentally ill. God would not condemn those who mentally ill.Judas was so remorseful, so depressed at what he had done, he probably was mentally ill at the time. So I would say yes, I think Judas will be in heaven. Had he not been sorry for turning Jesus in, that would be a different story, I think.
What do you think about King Saul and Judas?
I like discussing things with you.
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The fate of Judas is not firmly established in the Bible, as there are conflicting accounts. Matthew 27:5 says that he returned the money to the temple and hanged himself, but Acts 1:18-19 tells a very different story saying that he used the money to buy a field where he fell down and suffered a ruptured abdomen that resulted in his death.
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Matthew 27:7 says the Priests took the money and bought the Potters field to bury the strangers in. You are right - something different in Acts- hmmm... but it says the one who bought the field - if Matthew is to be believed it was a Priest who bought the field, so maybe it was a Priest who ruptured his abdomen ???
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Matthew 27:7 says the Priests took the money and bought the Potters field to bury the strangers in. You are right - something different in Acts- hmmm... but it says the one who bought the field - if Matthew is to be believed it was a Priest who bought the field, so maybe it was a Priest who ruptured his abdomen ???
That is an interesting thought!
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After Judas hung himself, and before buried the dogs ate him.. Jesus, knew Judas the same as he knew Pharaoh. Jesus gave every opportunity for both to make right choices. The Egyptians were swallowed up in the Red Sea. Scripture relates this too.
They hurried Jesus away with loud shouts of triumph; but their noise ceased for a time when they passed a retired place, and saw at the foot of a lifeless tree the dead body of Judas, who had betrayed Christ. It was a most revolting spectacle; his weight had broken the cord by which he had hung himself to the tree, and, in falling, his body had become horribly mangled, and was then being devoured by dogs. The mutilated remains were ordered to be buried at once, and the crowd passed on; but there was less noisy mockery, and many a pale face revealed the fearful thoughts within. Retribution seemed
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already to be visiting those who were guilty of the blood of Jesus. {5Red 68.2}
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I just looked up Matthew 26:24 and it sounds to me that Jesus was saying that it would be better that Judas had not been born. If Judas was going to go to heaven then would He have said that?
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I just looked up Matthew 26:24 and it sounds to me that Jesus was saying that it would be better that Judas had not been born. If Judas was going to go to heaven then would He have said that?
Good point! I honestly believe that Judas will not be in Heaven. Yes, he did seem emotional for what he did, but I feel that most of his emotions was not due to the act itself, nor of shame. I find it hard to believe that Judas repented for his sin. Which leads me to believe that he will not inherit the kingdom of God.
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If Judas hung himself and then the rope broke and the body fell, his abdomen could rupture and the dogs could eat him. This is how Desire of Ages harmonizes the two accounts of Judas' death.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
That's the only two passages where that phrase occurs. The first refers to Judas, and the second refers to Antichrist. The very phrase sounds like the one it is applied to is lost.
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Regarding King Saul:
1 Samuel 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
1 Samuel 10:9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
The language used here indicates that King Saul was genuinely converted, born again. This would mean that he later apostatized.
I think King Saul decided that he didn't want to live forever with Jesus, and God sadly respects that choice.
1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
I don't see how that can be said of someone who is still bound for heaven.
Those who believe in once saved always saved usually tell me that in the OT things were different, that people could "lost their salvation" back then but not now because of the gift of the Holy Spirit. That explanation has never made sense to me.
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Regarding Judas:
John 10:28, 29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
This passage is the one often quoted to support the idea that we cannot choose to be lost after we have accepted Christ. If that idea were really true, it is hard to see how Adam and Eve could have chosen to be lost when they sinned in Eden.
But at any rate, note that the ones that are in Jesus' hand and that cannot be taken out are the ones that His Father has given Him.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
This verse explicitly says that Judas was one of those whom the Father had given Christ, and yet it also explicitly says that Judas is lost. Therefore, though no man took Judas out of Jesus' hand, Judas took himself out. Thus John 10:28 cannot really be used to support the idea of once saved always saved.
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Bob, My first thought about Saul when it was brought up that the "witch" said Saul would be with his sons was that spirit mediums are not well known for telling the truth but for lying or twisting the truth and just because she identified the spirit as Samuel didn't mean that he really was Samuel or that she or the spirit told the truth about anything. But in this case she told the truth about Saul's fate in a sarcastic way as he and his sons might all have been buried together (that is in the family plot) or at least they were all dead together - not necessarily conscious in death but all dead.
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But that isn't what the Bible says in either passage. Acts says that he used the money to buy a field "and there he fell headlong..." rupturing his abdomen and dying. Matthew says that he threw the money into the temple and hung himself, after which the priests used that money to buy a field. There are also various apocryphal accounts, including the Book of Judas which says that the other 11 disciples stoned him to death.
We can speculate, but none of us has any knowledge of the salvation or loss of Judas or Saul.
If Judas hung himself and then the rope broke and the body fell, his abdomen could rupture and the dogs could eat him. This is how Desire of Ages harmonizes the two accounts of Judas' death.
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There are a number of possibilities. One old suggestion was that Judas did arrange to buy the field before he took the money he was going to use and threw it in the temple, and that the priests then completed the transaction. I think I've seen other possible explanations, but I'm rusty on that one.
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A Religious Fraud.--The case of Judas has been presented to me as a lesson for all. Judas was with Christ through the entire period of the Saviour's public ministry. He had all that Christ could give him. Had he used his capabilities with earnest diligence, he could have accumulated talents. Had he sought to be a blessing, instead of a questioning, criticizing, selfish man, the Lord would have used him to advance His kingdom. But Judas was a speculator. He thought that he could manage the finances of the church, and by his sharpness in business get gain. He was
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divided in heart. He loved the praise of the world. He refused to give up the world for Christ. He never committed his eternal interests to Christ. He had a superficial religion, and therefore he speculated upon his Master and betrayed Him to the priests, being fully persuaded that Christ would not allow Himself to be taken. {5BC 1101.7}
Judas was a religious fraud. He held up a high standard for others, but he himself utterly failed to reach the Bible standard. He did not bring the religion of Christ into his life. How many today are, like Judas, betraying their Lord? Those who follow dishonest practices in business, sacrifice Christ for gain and reveal a wisdom that is after Satan's order. Speculation for selfish gain will not be brought into the life of the man who has that faith which works by love and purifies the soul (Letter 40, 1901). {5BC 1102.1}
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Afterward the money which Judas had cast down before the priest was used for the purchase of a public burial ground. "And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day." {3SP 126.2}
If any testimony had been needed to prove the innocence of Jesus, it was given in the confession of Judas. Not only was it an evidence of the innocence of the Saviour, but the event was a direct fulfillment of prophecy. In prophetic vision Zechariah had looked down the ages and seen the trial of God's dear Son. The act of Judas is thus described: "And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter; a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord." {3SP 126.3}
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As I stated before, Judas believed that Jesus was going to set up his Kingdom on earth, but Judas was not alone. Many of Jesus' followers also believed that. Did the other deciples believe that too? We don't know, but they probably had their doubts about a Kingdom in Heaven. Judas was just trying to force Jesus to create his Kingdom. Yes, he was wrong, but the definition of remorseful is- moral anguish arising from repentance for past mideeds. If this is a good definition from the Greek and I haven't found my books to check, then I would say- Judas repented for what he did to Jesus. Therefore, I would say he went to Heaven.
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Or was he just tormented because things didn't work out as he had hoped and he couldn't stand the results of his actions? Is there a difference between Godly sorrow that he had caused Jesus to suffer and die or being sorry that Christ wasn't setting up an earthly kingdom and that because of his own actions Judas's wished-for king was dead - forever putting an end to his hopes?
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Ok so did I miss something. I know Judas tried to give the money back, however, where did he repent? He did that because he was scared things didn't go the way he planned. I agree that he never thought Jesus would let them take him like that, and meant to force his hand. I would even venture to say that Judas is the only one who really understood who Jesus was, he just had the wrong expectations and motives. however, Judas still misunderstood Jesus' mission. We know the other disciples had the wrong idea because they were busy arguing over who would be first in "the kingdom". I also believe that all of the Jews had the wrong expectations, as they were only looking for deliverance from the Romans, a king and/or warrior who would deliver them from bondage yet one more time.
Sorry to be off topic.
As I stated before, Judas believed that Jesus was going to set up his Kingdom on earth, but Judas was not alone. Many of Jesus' followers also believed that. Did the other deciples believe that too? We don't know, but they probably had their doubts about a Kingdom in Heaven. Judas was just trying to force Jesus to create his Kingdom. Yes, he was wrong, but the definition of remorseful is- moral anguish arising from repentance for past mideeds. If this is a good definition from the Greek and I haven't found my books to check, then I would say- Judas repented for what he did to Jesus. Therefore, I would say he went to Heaven.
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The Greek New Testament Lexicon- states that to repent is to be remorseful, to turn about, to turn away from. I think he was sorry he had turned Jesus in and that Jesus was condemned to die. He never expected that. For that he repented and maybe he repented for not believing in Jesus,that we will not know, until the end of time.
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The problem is that Jesus said:
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
So if Jesus said that Judas was lost, that pretty much settles it.
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
There are a lot of remorseful folks in the pen. They're sorry they got caught, sorry about the results, not sorry for the sin. And that's what bothered Judas. He knew he was in big trouble.
If he truly repented, he would never have hung himself. Peter fell in a moment of weakness while Judas' deed was premeditated. Peter sorrowed for the sin and found pardon.
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I read the title of this topic and just have one question. Who is Will Pope? :scratch:
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I read the title of this topic and just have one question. Who is Will Pope? :scratch:
:ROFL: LOL!
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Ah, what a gift you have for seeing the lighter side of things. What a blessing a sense of humor can be.
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Duane, I love it :ROFL: I have read my own line over and over and never did catch it. good thing my English Teachers can't see me now :oops:
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The Greek New Testament Lexicon- states that to repent is to be remorseful, to turn about, to turn away from. I think he was sorry he had turned Jesus in and that Jesus was condemned to die. He never expected that. For that he repented and maybe he repented for not believing in Jesus,that we will not know, until the end of time.
Perhaps this story illustrates a point that needs to be considered, not so much that Judas repented but rather that there is a limit and a point to which even repentance cannot save us. Yes, I believe that Judas was repentant and yes I believe he was remorseful I just believe that it was all to late.
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The Greek New Testament Lexicon- states that to repent is to be remorseful, to turn about, to turn away from. I think he was sorry he had turned Jesus in and that Jesus was condemned to die. He never expected that. For that he repented and maybe he repented for not believing in Jesus,that we will not know, until the end of time.
Perhaps this story illustrates a point that needs to be considered, not so much that Judas repented but rather that there is a limit and a point to which even repentance cannot save us. Yes, I believe that Judas was repentant and yes I believe he was remorseful I just believe that it was all to late.
Or was his weakness that of not being able to let go and let God? He seemed to lack full faith and trust that God was in control and therefore stepped in and did his own thing. Ending his own life was further evidence of that.
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You can't really love someone when you can premeditate to kill them before or after. Although you can come to the realization of what you done to the horror of too late.
So will it be when the "Unjust" that go to church and play the rules only to find out they displayed their life in society as "righteous" but their love of God was never priority to the selfishness of self on the inside character that was covered by outward appearances.
The Unjust will react the same as Judas with the "Coming" and that will be the worst class to be in as they discover in horror that Jesus never knew them and they really did not know Jesus. They chose to pick their own desires of opinionated views instead of following what is clearly established in God's Word of what God desires us to do to reach His likeness. Then we can only do that with "no reservations" if we truly love Him. Then only can we truly apologize, repent, and truly be remorseful.
Look how the Adventist have separated taking on the "keeping up with appearances" of known biblical truth. They know better, but their self and desires come first. So there is always division in every church. "Unity" will come with those that Love God and His will for us as the Unified separate from the Justifiers.
You see many do not have the ability or that they don't even fathom to not put self first. They are just plain selfish to the core with the appearance of how good they want people to think they are. "Self vanity". It all has to go. That was the trait of the Devil.
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The Vatican has expressed shock at raids, including the "violation" of a cathedral crypt, by Belgian police investigating alleged child sex abuse.
As well as searching a couple of main Church offices and a cardinal's home, police had drilled holes in two archbishops' tombs, said the Church.
Prosecutors said the raids were over alleged "abuse of minors committed by a certain number of Church figures".
Belgium is one of many countries where the Church has been hit by sex scandal.
In April, the Bishop of Bruges, Roger Vangheluwe, resigned after admitting he had sexually abused a boy more than 20 years ago.
'Da Vinci Code'
The Vatican has summoned the Belgian ambassador to the Holy See to voice anger over Thursday's raids.
Police in Leuven seized nearly 500 files and a computer from the offices of a Church commission investigating allegations of sex abuse.
Continue reading the main story Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard at a news conference in Brussels on 25 June 2010
We are surprised it went as far as drilling into tombs
Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard Leader of the Church in Belgium
They also searched the Church's headquarters, the Brussels archdiocese in Mechelen, north of the Belgian capital.
Bishops holding a meeting there were barred from leaving the premises for several hours and had their mobile phones confiscated, said Church officials.
BBC
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Does this news item indicate the Catholic Church is not willing to help or admit there have been problems, or are the investigations getting too close?
The Vatican has expressed shock at raids, including the "violation" of a cathedral crypt, by Belgian police investigating alleged child sex abuse.
As well as searching a couple of main Church offices and a cardinal's home, police had drilled holes in two archbishops' tombs, said the Church.
Prosecutors said the raids were over alleged "abuse of minors committed by a certain number of Church figures".
Belgium is one of many countries where the Church has been hit by sex scandal.
In April, the Bishop of Bruges, Roger Vangheluwe, resigned after admitting he had sexually abused a boy more than 20 years ago.
'Da Vinci Code'
The Vatican has summoned the Belgian ambassador to the Holy See to voice anger over Thursday's raids.
Police in Leuven seized nearly 500 files and a computer from the offices of a Church commission investigating allegations of sex abuse.
Continue reading the main story Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard at a news conference in Brussels on 25 June 2010
We are surprised it went as far as drilling into tombs
Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard Leader of the Church in Belgium
They also searched the Church's headquarters, the Brussels archdiocese in Mechelen, north of the Belgian capital.
Bishops holding a meeting there were barred from leaving the premises for several hours and had their mobile phones confiscated, said Church officials.
BBC
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Ah, what a gift you have for seeing the lighter side of things. What a blessing a sense of humor can be.
Thank you - and others - for letting us see the lighter side of life.