Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Johann on October 18, 2009, 10:53:23 AM
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Our local Lutheran 65 year old parson has been suspended for almost two years. It happened when four teen age girls accused him of improper embraces, touches and kisses. Police was involved and it was decided to take two of the cases to court. The parson had a good lawyer and he was cleared of breaking the law both in the local and the state supreme court. As a result the parson is demanding that his suspension be terminated.
A number of church members threaten to leave the church if the pastor returns, and the local church board does not want him back. But the parson and his supporters demand of the bishop that he declares the parson has the legal right to his job since he has been cleared even by the State Supreme Court.
This has left the bishop in a dilemma. Finally a week ago he wrote the parson a letter requesting him to report for work in connection with the bishop's office. The parson refuses claiming he now has been cleared and has the legal rights of serving in his local church until he retires.
Last Friday evening he held a meeting in the church. The media reports that 200 of his supporters were present and that a majority of them voted to support him in his claims.
At the same time 400 people have signed a petition requesting the young energetic and spiritual interim pastor be installed as their permanent parson. Yet the old parson states he will still demand his rights, even if he has to take the case to court. He also claims he had the full rights of kissing and caressing. . . and that this was part of his pastoral care - and of his own personal needs.
It is understood that the parson received a full salary during his suspension. The lawyer of the State Lutheran Church has stated that the bishop has the full legal rights to transfer a parson to a different job.
Would you support the bishop or the parson?
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Now the mother of one of the girls involved tells the media that her daughter will still need much professional help.
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I would support neither. He needs to be fired, especially after his comments about his rights to "kiss and caress". His dynamic lawyer might have cleared him in the trial, but he just messed it all up with that statement.....kick him to the curb and quickly!
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An adult mother has now appeared on local TV stating she and several other teen age girls had been treated the same way by the same parson in an earlier pastorate. She said the girls had been afraid of notifying their parents or the authorities. She is starting a support group for the young girls who now have the notified their parents and the authorities. After this lady has appeared on TV she has received a very threatening phone call.
There seem to be certain similarities. . .
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.......too many similarities, Johann But this man is just unrepentant, claiming his right to basically return to the scene of the crime, claiming kissing and caressing as a right. He is pretty sick.
The SDA church should be ashamed, well all demons involved in this despicable practice should be ashamed, but SDAs who also practice a form of religious elitism that is second to none because we have the "Sabbath".............and as it stands now, if God really did save us as s denom and not as individuals, because of the actions of administration, we ALL would be lost at this point...........
I always was kind of disappointed in our failure to realize that we were in the same state as the RCC(and every other denom) in this area, and were not safe from some kind of huge investigationa and/or legal action. I hope that NCC has already witten the young lady the check for $5 mil. There was no excuse for the actions of the church to allow a regitered sex offender to continue to teach in our schools. no matter the other facts of the case. Just pay her and every other one he offended.
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An adult mother has now appeared on local TV stating she and several other teen age girls had been treated the same way by the same parson in an earlier pastorate. She said the girls had been afraid of notifying their parents or the authorities. She is starting a support group for the young girls who now have the notified their parents and the authorities. After this lady has appeared on TV she has received a very threatening phone call.
There seem to be certain similarities. . .
Similarities to what?
A scarecrow, or an accuser of the brethren?
Well, one thing you, Linda and all your cronies can be thankful for is that you will not be judged by american jurisprudence, or the SDA Church as you judge others. :)
But.. Are you really saying that "accusations despite proof of that and in contradiction to civil judgments and a pronunciation of guilt still equals guilt, despite the fact you have no personal knowledge of said situation?" Then wait! Aren't you a Pastor? Aren't you a bible believing fundamentalist? well, sorry then,You have condemned yourself and LS too, and you appear to be in big trouble! How many accusations against you all are there?
I'm just sayin....
Mat 7:1-2Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Maybe it's time to look in the mirror?
1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Comprehende?
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.......too many similarities, Johann But this man is just unrepentant, claiming his right to basically return to the scene of the crime, claiming kissing and caressing as a right. He is pretty sick.
On what basis do you declare this? Johann's unsupported word?
I personally know nothing about this situation or each case, but I am not willing to condemn another with zero evidence against him or proof. I wonder how and why you do?
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Nosir Myzing,
Cute name, first of all............Do I know you? Anyway, just a short explanation. I posted a news story a few weeks regarding a lawsuit being filed again one of our local academies by a young woman who says, and it was proved that she was abused by one of the teachers. In short, the teacher had come to California from Idaho, where he was already a registered sex offender. After the incident at our local school, he was then allowed to go and teach at teh Reno(Nevada) Jr. Academy, where two years later he was convicted of having sex with one 15 year old, and fondling another. Johann posted this story a little while later. I believe it is the similarities to those two stories to which he is referring. He will correct me if I am wrong. The stories, while extremely sad and unfortunate, are not uncommon. It is the same story as the RCC with clergy abusing their position of authority to abuse members of their congregations, with the churches not taking appropriate (if any) disciplinary action against the offenders.
Why not just ask doe clarification if you didn't understand? There was no need to insult neither myself or Johann.
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Nosir Myzing,
Cute name, first of all............Do I know you? Anyway, just a short explanation. I posted a news story a few weeks regarding a lawsuit being filed again one of our local academies by a young woman who says, and it was proved that she was abused by one of the teachers. In short, the teacher had come to California from Idaho, where he was already a registered sex offender. After the incident at our local school, he was then allowed to go and teach at teh Reno(Nevada) Jr. Academy, where two years later he was convicted of having sex with one 15 year old, and fondling another. Johann posted this story a little while later. I believe it is the similarities to those two stories to which he is referring. He will correct me if I am wrong. The stories, while extremely sad and unfortunate, are not uncommon. It is the same story as the RCC with clergy abusing their position of authority to abuse members of their congregations, with the churches not taking appropriate (if any) disciplinary action against the offenders.
Why not just ask doe clarification if you didn't understand? There was no need to insult neither myself or Johann.
Princessdi,
Your story has nothing to do with Johann's. I know adulteresses, and I know many stories also, that doesn't make you an adulteress or guilty of those things, true?
I did understand, and I was not attempting to insult you. I asked a question. If you didn't like the answer don't blame me.
Here's the deal.
I gave another, this minister, reportedly found not guilty according to his local court and supreme court the benefit of the doubt, you did not, you judged him guilty merely on the unsupported word of another with a proven agendamwho was repeating only hearsay and something he has no personal knowledge of. (Johann)
I do not need clarification to reserve judgment or to extend mercy, but you do need clarification to make a judgment as you did and to render a guilty judgment rather than mercy. I'm sorry. You are wrong. That is my bonafide opinion.
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Well, all I can say is that I have no reason to doubt Johann's story at this point. It did cross my mind that it might be a hypothetical situation. It also occurred to me that Johann might not have been able to post a newspaper article as I did, and definitely not the new clip. As I said, with things the way they are currently, it is more likely than not that the story is true. Hyptheitcal or not, with the story as he told it, I stand by my position. It's Johann's story, he told it and asked for opinions...I gave mine.
You evidently have a problem with Johann, and most of the members of this site, because of the 3ABN situation. I don't have to share in that. I have spoken to Johann on [several] boards and in private chat for a few years now. I have no reason to doubt him. Now you, are a different case altogether. You might be somebody I have spoken to before, or you might not.......My take is I don't know you from a can of paint. So, on that basis, Johann just has more credibility at this time.
Now, do you live near Johann and know this story to be false or falsified in some way?
I got the part about the courts and his church, however, I was going on the part of what the man said himself. The entire post is in Johann's words, you chose to believe the part about the church,(rather 200 members of his church) and the courts, and stop there. I chose to believe all that, the 400 members who,and the local church board, plus in the man's own words that he feels he has done nothing wrong. Now I could understand you better if you discounted the entire post. We cane xtend mercy all day long, i believe his church did by not firing him, but offering a job which doesnt' require his constant contact with a congregation. he is refusing that mercy. it would be irresponsible of the church to then again place him in a position to offend again, especially seeing as he believes not only did he do nothing worng, but it was part of his job and his personal right.
Princessdi,
Your story has nothing to do with Johann's. I know adulteresses, and I know many stories also, that doesn't make you an adulteress or guilty of those things, true?
I did understand, and I was not attempting to insult you. I asked a question. If you didn't like the answer don't blame me.
Here's the deal.
I gave another, this minister, reportedly found not guilty according to his local court and supreme court the benefit of the doubt, you did not, you judged him guilty merely on the unsupported word of another, Johann's.
I do not need clarification to reserve judgment or to extend mercy, but you do need clarification to make a judgment as you did and to render a guilty judgment rather than mercy. I'm sorry. You are wrong. That is my bonafide opinion.
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Quite interesting how NM comes to a conclusion. On what basis? How does she/he know that my story is based on hearsay?
What I reported is what has been reported officially. Once in a while I meet this Lutheran parson. I could have gone to his meeting last Friday held only two minutes from our home, but I decided not to go because I'm not a Lutheran, and he knows who I am. But some of our friends went there. . . and we read several reports in the papers.
Just the other day this parson opened the door of a moving car driven past him by a young mother who is a member of our family. Do I need legal counsel to tell you she was uncomfortable? Or to let you know that the Youth Department of the Lutheran Church has made an open statement demanding this parson be ousted from his ministerial society? That other pastors and counselors in the Lutheran Church are writing in the newspapers that pastors have to follow a higher moral code than demanded by the civil laws - interpreted by his defense lawyer - which the State Supreme Court based their verdict on?
Similarities? I live by the conviction that the Lord's requirements are high above the laws of any country in this sinful world. Does Nosir Myzing request an exemption for her/himself? Should we not learn from what happens around us?
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A secular radio station has asked listeners to indicate on an Internet ballot if this Lutheran Pastor should be returned to his church.
87% said "NO"
13% said "Yes"
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The media today state that our local Lutheran pastorate will be announced vacant next week. It also states that the suspended pastor will be doing private pastoral duties through the bishop's office which indicate the parson has accepted that his legal battle is hopeless.
He still has a theoretical possibility which is that he applies for the job from which he has been suspended. It seems evident that if the pastor who has been assigned to this pastorate until the end of this year makes an application for a permanent assignment he will be accepted because he has become very popular in the area. A few months ago we attended the funeral of a relative conducted by this pastor. It was beautiful and deeply spiritual, and he took full consideration to his SDA background and relatives who are members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. There were about 1.200 people present at this funeral.
If this temporary pastor does not apply, and all other applicants are men the church would rather not have than the suspended pastor, then he has a theoretical possibility of getting his old job back. His problem would still be that it is the same bishop who makes the final appointment after nine committee members of the local church and the area dean have indicated which applicant they prefer.
The courts can deal with temporal matters, but that does not apply to spiritual matters and church morals.
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True, Johann. In this case there maybe some relief, but in.... Ahem!....others where the church position is little better if any at all than the courts, what can be done?
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There might well be men in high leadership in the Seventh-day Adventist Church who were hoping that someone would succeed in reducing the powers of a self appointed "pope" ruling the church from the fringes.
When such a "pope" has sufficient financial powers that task is difficult. Some rejoice that HOPE is now running as the official Interntional TV net of the Church. But HOPE still needs our prayers and support to succeed and meet the competition. Church members need to be aware of the fact that we do have an official TV channel and that 3ABN is not a SDA TV, and it is 3ABN which decides independently on which programs to transmit without the approval of our denomination.
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It's the same the whole world over,
Ain't it all a blooming shame,
It's the rich wot gets the pleasure,
It's the poor wot gets the blame.
From a Song of World War I
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It is now reported that the Lutheran parson and his bishop have reached the agreement that the parson will spend the remainder of his employment until his retirement translating literature, and that he is at liberty doing the work at his own home or at the office of the bishop. No regular pastoral duties.
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Is there any documentation of this story Johann? Is it in the mainstream news in your area where you can post a link so we can read it for ourselves?
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That may not be of much assistance if the reports are not in English :)
Do you have any reason to disbelieve Johann's account, Junebug?
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Is there any documentation of this story Johann? Is it in the mainstream news in your area where you can post a link so we can read it for ourselves?
Yes, this is all in the mainstream news in our area - various newspapers, various TV stations, and various radio stations. These media will not let the parson get away with it, even though he managed to get clearance through the supreme court. Here is a link where you can read about the final agreement between the bishop and the pastor - at least you can see the picture of the parson where he's playing his cello.
http://www.visir.is/article/20091106/FRETTIR01/896057587
In case you need it for something I can give you a lot more links to the whole story. All the documents are in a language which was common in most of Northern Europe a thousand years ago, and well educated people have a reading knowledge of this language, so you should have no problem.
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"Munnlegt samkomulag hefur náðst milli Biskups Íslands og séra Gunnars Björnssonar fyrrverandi sóknarpests á Selfossi."
...well educated people have a reading knowledge of this language, so you should have no problem.
:ROFL:
I know you're well educated, Johann...not so sure about the rest of us...
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"Munnlegt samkomulag hefur náðst milli Biskups Íslands og séra Gunnars Björnssonar fyrrverandi sóknarpests á Selfossi."
"An oral agreement has been reached between the Bishop of Iceland and the Rev. Gunnar Björnsson, former parson at Selfoss."
...well educated people have a reading knowledge of this language, so you should have no problem.
:ROFL:
I know you're well educated, Johann...not so sure about the rest of us...
:oops:
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Thanks for the translation! :)
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Thank you for the link Johann.
What I'd also like a link to is where this Priest is to have been quoted as saying this as you stated in your first post (copied below).
"At the same time 400 people have signed a petition requesting the young energetic and spiritual interim pastor be installed as their permanent parson. Yet the old parson states he will still demand his rights, even if he has to take the case to court. He also claims he had the full rights of kissing and caressing. . . and that this was part of his pastoral care - and of his own personal needs."
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Hello Johann: I asked several days ago for another link if you don't mind. You can see it in my post above. Would you mind sending me this link? I am reminded of the little motto you post often:
"The truth can lose nothing by close investigation."
(1888 Materials, 38)
I guess that is what I am doing: investigating. Thank you for providing this link.
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Hello Johann: I asked several days ago for another link if you don't mind. You can see it in my post above. Would you mind sending me this link? I am reminded of the little motto you post often:
"The truth can lose nothing by close investigation."
(1888 Materials, 38)
I guess that is what I am doing: investigating. Thank you for providing this link.
When I wrote what you are quoting the process was still going on, and I based my statements of what was current in the news at that time. Since then the case has come to a close with the Bishop offering the Rev. Gunnar a job in connection with his office. The pastor has finally accepted this assignment and therewith the case is closed. Finished. No more discussion.
Since you are so eager to investigate this closed case there is lots of material to be found on Google. Just look for Séra Gunnar Björnsson and there will be hundreds of links. There are also a number which cover what I wrote. Here is just a sample:
http://tidarandinn.is/node/114810
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Now a Lutheran parson has been interviewed on national TV where he claims that a pastor must never break a confidential confession, and therefore he cannot notify the authorities if he finds out that someone has had a sexual affair with a minor.
Shortly after that the Lutheran Bishop disagreed, and he claims that a pastor must obey the laws and do what is essential to protect children.
The first parson states that he would rather be fired from his ministry than break the confidentiality of his parishioners.
What is your opinion?
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Our local Lutheran 65 year old parson has been suspended for almost two years. It happened when four teen age girls accused him of improper embraces, touches and kisses. Police was involved and it was decided to take two of the cases to court. The parson had a good lawyer and he was cleared of breaking the law both in the local and the state supreme court. As a result the parson is demanding that his suspension be terminated.
A number of church members threaten to leave the church if the pastor returns, and the local church board does not want him back. But the parson and his supporters demand of the bishop that he declares the parson has the legal right to his job since he has been cleared even by the State Supreme Court.
This has left the bishop in a dilemma. Finally a week ago he wrote the parson a letter requesting him to report for work in connection with the bishop's office. The parson refuses claiming he now has been cleared and has the legal rights of serving in his local church until he retires.
Last Friday evening he held a meeting in the church. The media reports that 200 of his supporters were present and that a majority of them voted to support him in his claims.
At the same time 400 people have signed a petition requesting the young energetic and spiritual interim pastor be installed as their permanent parson. Yet the old parson states he will still demand his rights, even if he has to take the case to court. He also claims he had the full rights of kissing and caressing. . . and that this was part of his pastoral care - and of his own personal needs.
It is understood that the parson received a full salary during his suspension. The lawyer of the State Lutheran Church has stated that the bishop has the full legal rights to transfer a parson to a different job.
Would you support the bishop or the parson?
Neither deserves support from any Seventh-day Adventist.
The Bishop is Bishop of a “daughter” of the Harlot of Revelation. They are no longer a “Protestant” Faith upholding the Biblical Standards and have long since closed the organizational probation. They clearly rejected the great warning message of the second angel during the 1840’s and walked away from their protestant heritage. And Lutheranism is deeply rooted as the old official church of Norway and Iceland just as Roman Catholicism has been the official church of so many other countries of yesteryear.
Clearly the pastor is far too concerned about his “own needs” to fulfill his duties as an “anointed of the Lord” and since he is apostate, his anointing is clearly not of the Lord. He is clearly willing to abrogate ecclesiastical authority and step across the “protestant reformation” of Luther, breach the wall of separation and seek civil redress to an ecclesiastical issue. Will the Bishop have the backbone to face the crisis “head on”? Unlikely!!!
I would point out the Bishop’s compromise was nothing more than a replication of “Pontius Pilate” in Jerusalem, a compromise that will not satisfy either side and lead to an irreparable breach as the 200 set up their own congregational organization, which the Bishop will inevitably accept back into the Lutheran fold in time.
Now, I will point out that if the un-anointed pastor elects civil authority, it would behoove the Seventh-day Adventist organization to pursue an amicus brief, assuming the Bishop elects to assert “ecclesiastical authority”, and support the separation of church and state, not officially recognized in Norway or Iceland.
But, I doubt we will show such fortitude and simply rest on our laurels so as not to agitate civil authority.
Yup, I declare us “wimps”!!! There is little boldness in Adventism today…but rest assured, it will get VERY MUCH BETTER in time (and I am not suggesting the Wilson administration has the needed boldness).
I do know that I do not want to support Lutheranism, except as the opportunity arises to assert the separation of church and state, if the wayward pastor elects civil authority.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Best not differ with Gailon... He'll take out a red book and whack you hard over the head.
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Best not differ with Gailon... He'll take out a red book and whack you hard over the head.
Admitted!!! My Red Books are READ BOOKS and would recommend you consider making that the same in your home.
And, I am proud of and eager to propogate the concept.
Remember, I am a "Radical, Right Wing, Tea Party Fundementalist" per Dr Lawrence Gerrity...and proud of it...prepared
to defend it and eager to propogate it. I am absolutely not a supporter of of those opposed to "creationism" as described
in the Fundemental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
Are you concerned by my "fundementalism"? Or just don't like opposing views?
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Opposing views are fine... So is the spirit of prophecy. I'd find us agreeing on creationism.
TEA party is my place as well. I was at one of the first ones in 2009.
But there are some sincere believers in Jesus in the Lutheran Church. Even within that denomination's leadership.
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It is profound how a single person's statement on National TV could become the beginning of such a grass-roots effort nationwide.
I was watching that morning in the early Spring of 2009 when Rick Santelli protested the decision to use TARP/HAMP funds to pay their neighbors mortgages and called upon a response from the Chicago Mercantile Exchange... they exploded into an outraged response to which Rick promptly put his entire career on the line at CNBC by calling for a Tea Party in Lake Michigan, live on CNBC, a not so supportive network. That CALL TO ARMS was a shot heard around the world and is one the Obama Administration wishes had never occured. Oh, but for the ability to turn the clock backwards!!!
Can you imagine the world's outrage going forward as SDA's take a stand for the right of conscience in opposition to the false revival of the beast on national Television? The world will beleive their very financial survival is at stake and SDA's will be the only group in the way of world-wide reformation and revival to alleviate the judgments of the Lord of Rome? Just look at how quickly this coallesced into a national movement? How can one wonder further the eschatology we know to be just ahead...gives new meaning to the statement that the final events will be rapid ones.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Before you condemn these Lutheran leaders, let's just remember the grace that Jesus extends to us to lead us out of our stubborn ways. That same grace could be being applied to those Lutheran leaders right now.
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And so when do we expect the announcement of their coming out of apostacy and becoming Seventh-day Adventists? Maybe during the Loud Cry???
A most fundemental step would be to hold an ecclesiastical tribunal and let the Pastor defend himself pursuant to canonical law for the purported allegations, giving the victims a fair hearing.
The rules of canonical evidence would unlikely give the Pastor the same "loop-holes" as the rules of criminal procedure and if he is guilty, he should be defrocked and pensioned out, assuming he is fully vested under either canonical law or the Laws of Iceland.
I find the Bishop's compromise un-acceptable, as unacceptable as the Directorate of 3ABN failing to give Linda Sue Shelton a fair hearing.
You may elect to defend their dishonorable conduct, I will choose to condemn it.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Opposing views are fine... So is the spirit of prophecy. I'd find us agreeing on creationism.
TEA party is my place as well. I was at one of the first ones in 2009.
But there are some sincere believers in Jesus in the Lutheran Church. Even within that denomination's leadership.
I have had a couple of Lutheran Professors come to me telling me they are more in agreement with certain Seventh-day Adventist doctrines than they are with their own mainstream theological seminaries.
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"God has children, many of them, in the Protestant churches, and a large number in the Catholic churches, who are more true to obey the light and to do [to] the very best of their knowledge than a large number among Sabbathkeeping Adventists who do not walk in the light. {3SM 386.2}"
– Ellen White, Selected Messages, book 3, p.386
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Ouch!!!! You don't hear nobody quoting that one! LOL!!!! :ROFL:
So now seriously, what does this do to our concept about "The Remnant"?
"God has children, many of them, in the Protestant churches, and a large number in the Catholic churches, who are more true to obey the light and to do [to] the very best of their knowledge than a large number among Sabbathkeeping Adventists who do not walk in the light. {3SM 386.2}"
– Ellen White, Selected Messages, book 3, p.386
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"God has children, many of them, in the Protestant churches, and a large number in the Catholic churches, who are more true to obey the light and to do [to] the very best of their knowledge than a large number among Sabbathkeeping Adventists who do not walk in the light. {3SM 386.2}"
– Ellen White, Selected Messages, book 3, p.386
Are you purporting the Bishop and his Pastor fit this description?
Notice the word "children" not Bishops and pastors that compromise to keep the peace.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Ouch!!!! You don't hear nobody quoting that one! LOL!!!! :ROFL:
So now seriously, what does this do to our concept about "The Remnant"?
Whose concept??? The Spirit of prophecy makes it clear that as the eschatology moves toward the Loud cry, vast numbers of the SDA Membership fall off the path and are replaced by converts from fallen protestantism. May be room for even a Bishop and a Pastor.
However, read carefully the Laodicean Message and when clearly understood that most of us are in SERIOUS TROUBLE!!!.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Gailon...I'm through disagreeing with you, and that EG White quote is not meant to counterpoint anyone. I don't defend the actions of that Lutheran leader either. My only premise is to be sure that we all understand that Jesus still has sheep in pastures other than our own.
My dad was a catholic at one time and he never thought his journey would bring him tobe head elder of a major sda congregation. So let's not let the sins of the leaders of these other denominations malign those precious hungry souls within whom Jesus knows still seek him.
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I guess your post makes me understand a little more how all this is happening then about the 3abn programming. somehow I figured that Adventists were totally mingled with 3abn. but on the other hand Johann, I feel much better not watching "Hope". I just can't get into their displaying views of foundational changing to New age looks and actions.
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Horsetheif, you know I likes you! Well said!
Gailon...I'm through disagreeing with you, and that EG White quote is not meant to counterpoint anyone. I don't defend the actions of that Lutheran leader either. My only premise is to be sure that we all understand that Jesus still has sheep in pastures other than our own.
My dad was a catholic at one time and he never thought his journey would bring him tobe head elder of a major sda congregation. So let's not let the sins of the leaders of these other denominations malign those precious hungry souls within whom Jesus knows still seek him.
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Gailon...I'm through disagreeing with you, and that EG White quote is not meant to counterpoint anyone. I don't defend the actions of that Lutheran leader either. My only premise is to be sure that we all understand that Jesus still has sheep in pastures other than our own.
My dad was a catholic at one time and he never thought his journey would bring him tobe head elder of a major sda congregation. So let's not let the sins of the leaders of these other denominations malign those precious hungry souls within whom Jesus knows still seek him.
Let's get one point out in the open now...this forum is a place for open discussion and one does not necessarily have to be right or wrong to have differing views of differing issues. It should be a fun and educational process that we all grow with.
It is inappropriate for bloggers to feel that they are being personally attacked when another blogger takes on challenging issues and expresses their views. I do not intend to make one wrong or right but invoke discussion. Have even been known to be the devil’s advocate to draw out another’s real view of issues at bar. And I readily admit that I enjoy the debate…in fact revel in it. But, please never take it so personally…I don’t know enough about you to make it personal.
Now, if you are Danny Lee Shelton in disguise, or one of the disciples, then my game is to expose and flay…and I live for the moment. I despise hypocrits!!!
Believe me when I say I work with people every day that disagree with my views and frequently we agree to disagree. But it is also essential that I get my point across or clients will suffer.
Persuasion, or at least persuasive compulsion, is required or I have failed in my advocacy or administration. On the other hand if there is a good reason why my position is wrong, I want to hear it or I will have lost the opportunity to understand the opposing view and form a broader conclusion. So buck up and enjoy the banter…if you were target of reprisal, believe me, you would know it – there would be a Save-Horsethief.com or Horsethief vs Joy.com. I have no reason to think or believe this would ever happen.
As to the pasture being wide and inclusive of fallen protestants and catholics, I will point out that my wife is a former catholic whose mother worked for the Diocese, and a devout catholic indeed. I am an avid door to door worker and love to meet people right where they are, catholic, protestant or agnostic.
Again, what I cannot stand is men in leadership that do not stand for principal and are far short of being “as true as the needle to the Pole”. I declare them spineless wimps and hypocrits and they are the enemies of true Faith and Discipleship. They need revival and reformation.
I also have real problems with men who leadership knows have serious challenges in their past, have played a role in assisting others in dastardly deeds, then are still promoted to church leadership roles in the falsity of their resume’s. And it has happened recently in the SDA church. It cannot be tolerated without a clear and precise challenge as the party has shown no remorse, has not confessed his wrong to another sister, has not repented of his very public effort and has not demonstrated a spirit of revival and reformation.
In fact, I will go so far as to declare we now have a FOX IN THE HENHOUSE of Adventist administration. The leadership that claimed to invoke revival and reformation has now formed an unholy union with those who would work to tear down the foundations of our media and publishing institutions.
As for you, Horsethief, join the posse, put your ear to the ground and listen for the fleeing horses that we may give appropriate chase. After all, the crusade must go on.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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I guess your post makes me understand a little more how all this is happening then about the 3abn programming. somehow I figured that Adventists were totally mingled with 3abn. but on the other hand Johann, I feel much better not watching "Hope". I just can't get into their displaying views of foundational changing to New age looks and actions.
I don't watch HOPE very often. That might be the reason I have missed the New age looks and actions - and foundational changes.
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Fox in the henhouse, :ROFL: that is good. But..I don't think the "hens" know the difference in the "kind of eggs" they lay. But having a bunch of hens one time, we found them "pecking at our toes" at our presence to get "fed".
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I agree that this is a great place to discuss and learn from each other. I am a Protestant of no given church persuasion. I was baptised in the Church of God by Reverand Wood,but have had memberships in Baptist, Non-denominational, Methodist and now Bretheran. I don't think my name on any church roster means a hill of beans. ;D My name is written down on the Book of Life, because Jesus Christ saved my soul from my sins. That is what is important for everyone. I have thoroughly enjoyed learning about the SDA church and the Bible and making new friends :purr: We agree to disagree on many things, but that is ok- Christians can do that, as long as we do it in love.
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It's been nice conversing with you Mrst. I am wondering if just in your area that Veterans have difficulty performing. In our area they are top notch. Right on the ball with everything and treat my husband like a millon dollars. I am also very impressed with the vacilities also. He just had two operations in 6 months. Just for the foot.
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The VA outreach has been great and the VA doctors has been good. The VA dentists are fantastic. It's just dealing with the VA and getting benifits that have been lousy- but that's the system in DC. That's the government for you.
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The VA outreach has been great and the VA doctors has been good. The VA dentists are fantastic. It's just dealing with the VA and getting benifits that have been lousy- but that's the system in DC. That's the government for you.
DC is the issue...these are issues that should be resolved at the LOCAL VA, not some granite building in DC. Eliminate Federalization Centralization and efficiency and service will significantly improve. Just as State Capitols are an issue; centralize and you have problems!!! Problems solving should be as close as the town hall!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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I agree with that.. Bill was supposed to have hernia surgery and instead of being able to go to Martinisburg Hospital - 1 1/2 hours away-no way. they have now decided that with all the hospitals in our area(DC, Virginia and WV) only certain hospitals do certain surgeries. So Bill was going to be sent to a DC hospital. Mileage wise, it was the same- time wise- it was 4 hours to get there with rush hour traffic. Plus this VA hospital did not have a good record. I could not even find anyone to drive us over there. Bill said I would get lost coming home. He almost did and drove in DC for years.
Just more government.... Just because it was the same distance did not mean it took the same time to get there- but whomever made the decision, wasn't thinking about traffic... :ROFL: