Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Bob Pickle on May 26, 2009, 04:49:11 PM
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For quite some time I have been interested in what makes some people take one position or another in this unnecessary and sad saga.
Junebug stated in another thread:
THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG, including Danny Shelton.
Now this could be taken in more than one way, and perhaps Junebug could clarify this for else. Does this statement mean that Linda Shelton committed adultery and that thus Danny did nothing wrong by divorcing her? Or does this mean that Danny did nothing wrong by divorcing Linda even though he had no biblical grounds to do so?
Or, are Junebug's words restricted to only a particular topic, not Danny's unbiblical divorce.
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I wonder why Junebug didn't respond to this question?
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I wonder why Junebug didn't respond to this question?
In my world JUNEBUGS get stepped on and left for the birds!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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I wonder why Junebug didn't respond to this question?
:huh:
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Maybe Junebug doesn't want to be stepped on my GJ. OUCH!!!
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Maybe she's still pondering how to spin Tommy's guilty plea to actually make him innocent, so her famous prediction won't be wrong.
Hey Junebug, I hope you haven't been considering opening up one of those psychic hotlines.
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Now, now, Duane! No good SDA worth their salt would go near a psychic....for shame! LOL!!!!
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I don't think making sport of Junebug like this is the way to go.
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I don't think making sport of Junebug like this is the way to go.
In a way it is good (making sport) because hopefully it will open up some eyes. But my greatest concern is not Danny or 3ABN, it is the 900 pound gorilla in the room, the Adventist Church. no matter how you spin it they are to a great degree responsible for this entire scenario. The fact of the matter is that Danny would have no power at all if the church had stood up and chastised him from the very beginning. Or, if they had took and even look at the situation, or used basic common sense. Especially after his marriage to Brandy someone should have had enough sense to say hold on Danny you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. That marriage alone should have been enough to have him step down, but they were to invested in it to move with common sense. The letter from his step daughter was another chance for them to distance themselves from him and lastly the episode with Tommy should have caused some type of outrage. Consider that even the worldly institutions would have acted by now on appearance alone. Instead the silence is a testimony to the complete and utter inability to act with common sense or with regard to the cause of Christ.
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I don't think making sport of Junebug like this is the way to go.
If Junebug had kept quiet and not spoken of things she knows nothing about, she wouldn't even be a topic of discussion right now. She has ridiculed victims and called us liars, so surely she can take it if she can dish it out.
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I don't think making sport of Junebug like this is the way to go.
In a way it is good (making sport) because hopefully it will open up some eyes. But my greatest concern is not Danny or 3ABN, it is the 900 pound gorilla in the room, the Adventist Church. no matter how you spin it they are to a great degree responsible for this entire scenario. The fact of the matter is that Danny would have no power at all if the church had stood up and chastised him from the very beginning. Or, if they had took and even look at the situation, or used basic common sense. Especially after his marriage to Brandy someone should have had enough sense to say hold on Danny you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. That marriage alone should have been enough to have him step down, but they were to invested in it to move with common sense. The letter from his step daughter was another chance for them to distance themselves from him and lastly the episode with Tommy should have caused some type of outrage. Consider that even the worldly institutions would have acted by now on appearance alone. Instead the silence is a testimony to the complete and utter inability to act with common sense or with regard to the cause of Christ.
Not to mention the award or commendation or whatever it was that they were given at the GC session.
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Not to mention the award or commendation or whatever it was that they were given at the GC session.
What award was that? What for?
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Not to mention the award or commendation or whatever it was that they were given at the GC session.
What award was that? What for?
I wonder if it could be this:
http://news.3abn.org/?p=169
Have looked for this item elsewhere but I see no mention of it any other place than in 3ABN's own news.
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Not to mention the award or commendation or whatever it was that they were given at the GC session.
What award was that? What for?
I wonder if it could be this:
http://news.3abn.org/?p=169
Have looked for this item elsewhere but I see no mention of it any other place than in 3ABN's own news.
That must be it. Amazing.
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Reminds me of an incident I watched at the GC session at Cincinnati Ohio back in 1958. One evening a pastor called a certain conference president on the phone to inform him that he was supposed to be on the rostrum at a certain meeting the following morning. Back in those days there were lots of people on the rostrum at every meeting. One person would introduce another man who was to introduce the person who would announce the opening hymns - or something like that - just to get as many participants as possible.
I saw another conference president noticing what the pastor was doing - and his face exposed a huge grin. The following morning I saw the first conference president walking on to the rostrum but he never performed any task during the meeting, so I spoke to him after the meeting. He told me he had asked his seatmate why they had been asked to sit there. His seatmate told him that he had no idea. So I suppose that even back then some people had fun playing jokes on others. I have no idea if this could be the case with those three people in the picture, but I find it strange that this incident took place prior to the traditional international parade - at a time when there might not have been any meeting at all? So were the mikes turned on or off when this took place? Did they just manage to get this picture for 3ABN?
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I don't think making sport of Junebug like this is the way to go.
In a way it is good (making sport) because hopefully it will open up some eyes. But my greatest concern is not Danny or 3ABN, it is the 900 pound gorilla in the room, the Adventist Church. no matter how you spin it they are to a great degree responsible for this entire scenario. The fact of the matter is that Danny would have no power at all if the church had stood up and chastised him from the very beginning. Or, if they had took and even look at the situation, or used basic common sense. Especially after his marriage to Brandy someone should have had enough sense to say hold on Danny you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. That marriage alone should have been enough to have him step down, but they were to invested in it to move with common sense. The letter from his step daughter was another chance for them to distance themselves from him and lastly the episode with Tommy should have caused some type of outrage. Consider that even the worldly institutions would have acted by now on appearance alone. Instead the silence is a testimony to the complete and utter inability to act with common sense or with regard to the cause of Christ.
This is also my concern about the SDA church's programing going through 3abn when I am sure they pay 3abn for carrying it for them and then that seems to be the deal or am I wrong on this. They pay for the connection to 3abn and 3abn keeps getting the money. What is wrong with SDA church using our own logo and as I suggested in other thread and do our own TV. You know like the BYU, Catholics, and all the rest. Why are we hiding behind the 3abn and Hope channels? We need our own. How about the North American and let the Aussies run their own foundation of SDA since it doesn't seem to jive with ours in top notch programming.
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Yep, that was the event to which I was referring, with Danny and his mohawk.
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Like it or not, the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in session chose to honor 3ABN and Danny Shelton, and pay tribute to them. Times change, as do policies, ideas, ideals, and principles. The SDA church is made up of a beaurocracy, and people, just like any other business. The finger is held to the wind to test the market, and the product that the people want is provided. That is how business works. A business that doesn't give the people what they want will collapse.
Most markets are diverse, and are made up of many vertical sub-groups. Perhaps 3ABN serves one of those. A business as large as the SDA church has to consider its many and varied constituencies, and provide for them. There are undeniably a large number of SDAs whose primary spiritual goal is the dissemination of the "Pillars of our Faith" that distinguish us from the confusion of Babylon, which they define as the many protestant groups who are not Adventist. To this audience 3ABN's work is greater in true value and importance than are people, good or bad. Every time they see a program that tells of the many things that make us superior to the Baptists, the Church of God, the Nazarenes, the Catholics, and all of the others who are not the remnant church of Revelation, it is a pat on the back, and something that justifies their existence. That is a genuine product that meets a genuine demand from a genuine market. Thus, we can't fault the SDA church for honoring and paying tribute to them.
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If it's purpose in existing was only to perpetuate itself and prosper, the church might be justified in doing so. But that kind of an institution isn't what it claims to be or to do. It claims to be led by God to do his will and it has asked people to give their all, their money, their time and at times their very lives - To be martyrs for this.
My husband and I have lived below the poverty level, paying tithe and offerings and giving our chidlren educations in our denominational schools while those in church employ got large salaries (compared to ours) and educational and living discounts. We denied ourselves and our kids luxuries and what some would consider necessities in order to advance the Lord's work, not so we or our brethren could feel superior to anyone. And at times we felt they favored the wealthy materialists in the church and disdained our lack of worldly ambition.
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That, COK, is called marketing. Its how business works. Some of the world's most successful businesses have made it off the nickels and dimes of the poor. Tell the people the things that make them give/pay, and they give/pay. That is how it works. You pay to hear the thing you want to hear, because they make you feel how you want to feel.
If it's purpose in existing was only to perpetuate itself and prosper, the church might be justified in doing so. But that kind of an institution isn't what it claims to be or to do. It claims to be led by God to do his will and it has asked people to give their all, their money, their time and at times their very lives - To be martyrs for this.
My husband and I have lived below the poverty level, paying tithe and offerings and giving our chidlren educations in our denominational schools while those in church employ got large salaries (compared to ours) and educational and living discounts. We denied ourselves and our kids luxuries and what some would consider necessities in order to advance the Lord's work, not so we or our brethren could feel superior to anyone. And at times we felt they favored the wealthy materialists in the church and disdained our lack of worldly ambition.
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Look at our friends the Muslims. Every year many of them give their lives in martydom for what people tell them they will get. I have no doubt that there are also people who would give their lives for 3ABN, for the SDA church, and for any number of other things that mean something to people. SDAs gave their lives, their time, their money, their spouses, and their children for David Koresh. Why? Through fear and promise of something better, and through the belief that what they knew was better and deeper than what others knew, they were more than justified in giving everything. That is why followers are called sheep. They hear the familiar call of the shepherd and do as they are told, without question. They simply do it because it is the right thing to do.
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I woke up in the middle of the night and read this post. Then I went back to sleep and in my dream I returned to 3ABN with a small magic gadget which had enabled me to transmit Gospel TV signals. It was to be a short visit because I had a date with my wife at a concert within a couple of hours. But the people at 3ABN got me so engaged in testing my gadget with wires to my body that I was convinced this was more important than meeting my wife. Before leaving the building I had to strip myself of any valuables in my pockets. People were singing the praises of Moses Primo and Danny Shelton for their ingenuity in saving the world.
Outside the building I saw two senior pastors cultivating the ground and rejoicing that now they were finally doing the Lord's work. As I stood there watching them I suddenly realized we were all blinded and were not pleasing the Lord. Then I shouted my warnings to the senior pastors but in vain. Then I realized my own safety would only be found outside the premises of 3ABN, but the more I tried to get out I discovered that every gate was either locked or guarded. Finally I found my freedom by tearing myself out of my sleep.
I tried to wrench myself out of the dream, but the best solution was going back to my study of Romans chapter 7 - and prayer.
Like it or not, the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in session chose to honor 3ABN and Danny Shelton, and pay tribute to them. Times change, as do policies, ideas, ideals, and principles. The SDA church is made up of a beaurocracy, and people, just like any other business. The finger is held to the wind to test the market, and the product that the people want is provided. That is how business works. A business that doesn't give the people what they want will collapse.
Most markets are diverse, and are made up of many vertical sub-groups. Perhaps 3ABN serves one of those. A business as large as the SDA church has to consider its many and varied constituencies, and provide for them. There are undeniably a large number of SDAs whose primary spiritual goal is the dissemination of the "Pillars of our Faith" that distinguish us from the confusion of Babylon, which they define as the many protestant groups who are not Adventist. To this audience 3ABN's work is greater in true value and importance than are people, good or bad. Every time they see a program that tells of the many things that make us superior to the Baptists, the Church of God, the Nazarenes, the Catholics, and all of the others who are not the remnant church of Revelation, it is a pat on the back, and something that justifies their existence. That is a genuine product that meets a genuine demand from a genuine market. Thus, we can't fault the SDA church for honoring and paying tribute to them.
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Yep, that was the event to which I was referring, with Danny and his mohawk.
I did not see this part, I am not sure what you are meaning, mohawk :ROFL: Did he have his hair cut like that or just because he is spouting his "extravaganza ego hair plants"?
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Johann,
I replied to Grat before I read the rest of thread of Childoftheking, Murielago, and then yours,
My worst fears as I read all were coming into play with the feeling of your dream, even before I read it. I was thinking of EGW as she was writing about futuristic of SDA with tears running down her cheeks that she could not hardly bare to write any longer. Johann, you have been given real dreams. "How close are we can"? No one can give the day but seems real soon.
I get a NewsMax report that I signed up for that I get news even before it hits TV on actual facts that are happening. My husband watches close the political scene. He says that Europe is ready to sign the "Sunday Law", and lo and behold another frightening thing coming into play. The control of food, private gardens and now this very well could mean what SDA --or myself might consider the "now" demand that meat cannot be eaten at all. This all seems to be the signal. I will have to go to my other computer and post an extraordinary bill that is coming into view. But beyond anything, thank you for sharing your dream and It is a warning to us all of EGW and her writings have told us was coming. and
Murcielago, first of all we had a fellow that called David K. at Waco "our friends" in church one day and many about fell off their seats encluding us, and we cannot call worshipers of wrong, "Our friends", they are imposter's of God spreading their false doctrines. We cannot be yoked with anything of this sort. and you are so right with your observance to the "Marketing" of SDA and my heart was so in tune with Childoftheking as that is why I spout off on here and on these threads and the Danny Shelton "gimmick" of apostacy - just written by you guys give the exact picture of the supposedly Remnant of God's church. There is a Remnant alright, that will then scatter at the end and leave the turn coats behind. The ones that stayed true, followed the commandants, and turned neither to the right or to the left and steadfast to beginning foundation. I think also soon they will have a signal as the political agenda is mounting on its wings for the perscution of the Christians that we are starting to view inch by inch. It will take me a few minutes to go to other computer and send this new "agenda" about our food. Now then you might connect this to the same plan of the devil within SDA s. We sure have been attacked by the "roaring lion". Surely the Lord will come quickly now.
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Murcielago, I was not raised SDA. I came into the church as a teenager. I was convinced and still am that the Bible is true and that I have a moral obligation to follow it and share it. Not because it was what I wanted to hear. I do not believe that the SDA church knows all the truth that there is to know but I believe it is a fulfillment of prophecy. We are told that history will repeat itself. I believe that some are like the leaders of Jesus day and they will meet the same fate.
I believe in the doctrines of the church. Matthew 23:3 King James Bible
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
This does not apply to all but to many. I am old enough to know that we used to have self sacrificing leaders who practiced what they preached. Nevertheless right now I am fearful about bringing new people into the church lest they be taken advantage of or become discouraged because of hypocricy and cynicism.
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Government control of food, The Union's answer to the control of food and Who connects to it. Hmmm. Any one remember me telling about eating so much, Soybeans??
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Virginia Brooks" <gini.1938@gmail.com>
> Date: August 6, 2010 11:12:40 PM EDT
> To: "Virginia Brooks" <gini.1938@gmail.com>
> Subject: FYI: And I Thought I Was All Through With Killing -
> Senate Bill S510
>
>
>
>
> "THE BROOKS REPORT"
>
> http://www.unitednativeradio.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=150%3Asenate-bill-s510-makes-it-illegal-to-grow-share-trade-or-sell-homegrown-food&catid=1%3Alatest-news&Itemid=50
>
>
> Our religion is not one of paint and feathers; it is a thing of the
> heart.
> -Seneca
> .
>
> Senate Bill S510 Makes it Illegal to Grow, Share, Trade or Sell Home-
> grown Food
>
>
> Written by Raven Duclos
> Saturday, 24 July 2010 14:02
> From Tree Of Life
> Senate Bill S510 Makes it Illegal to Grow, Share, Trade or Sell
> Homegrown Food
>
> By Steve Green
>
> S 510, the Food Safety Modernization Act of 2010, may be the most
> dangerous bill in the history of the US.
>
> It is to our food what the bailout was to our economy, only we can
> live
> without money.
>
> “If accepted [S 510] would preclude the public’s right to grow, own,
> trade, transport, share, feed and eat each and every food that nature
> makes. It will become the most offensive authority against the
> cultivation,
> trade and consumption of food and agricultural products of one’s
> choice.
> It will be unconstitutional and contrary to natural law or, if you
> like, the
> will of God.” It is similar to what India faced with imposition of
> the salt
> tax during British rule, only S 510 extends control over all food in
> the US,
> violating the fundamental human right to food." ~ Dr. Shiv Chopra,
> Canada
> Health whistleblower.
>
> Monsanto says it has no interest in the bill and would not benefit
> from it,
> but Monsanto’s Michael Taylor who gave us rBGH and unregulated
> genetically modified (GM) organisms, appears to have designed it and
> is
> waiting as an appointed Food Czar to the FDA (a position unapproved by
> Congress) to administer the agency it would create — without judicial
> review — if it passes.
>
> S 510 would give Monsanto unlimited power over all US seed, food
> supplements, food AND FARMING.
>
> History
>
> In the 1990s, Bill Clinton introduced HACCP (Hazardous Analysis
> Critical Control Points) purportedly to deal with contamination in the
> meat industry. Clinton’s HACCP delighted the offending corporate
> (World Trade Organization “WTO”) meat packers since it allowed
> them to inspect themselves, eliminated thousands of local food
> processors (with no history of contamination), and centralized meat
> into their control. Monsanto promoted HACCP.
>
> In 2008, Hillary Clinton, urged a powerful centralized food safety
> agency as part of her campaign for president. Her advisor was Mark
> Penn, CEO of Burson Marsteller*, a giant PR firm representing
> Monsanto. Clinton lost, but Clinton friends such as Rosa DeLauro,
> whose husband’s firm lists Monsanto as a progressive client and
> globalization as an area of expertise, introduced early versions of
> S 510.
>
> S 510 fails on moral, social, economic, political, constitutional, and
> human survival grounds.
>
> 1. It puts all US food and all US farms under Homeland Security
> and the Department of Defense, in the event of contamination or
> an ill-defined emergency. It resembles the Kissinger Plan.
>
> 2. It would end US sovereignty over its own food supply by insisting
> on compliance with the WTO, thus threatening national security. It
> would end the Uruguay Round Agreement Act of 1994, which put
> US sovereignty and US law under perfect protection. Instead,
> S 510 says:
>
>
> COMPLIANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS.
>
> Nothing in this Act (or an amendment made by this Act) shall be
> construed in a manner inconsistent with the agreement establishing
> the World Trade Organization or any other treaty or international
> agreement to which the United States is a party.
>
> 3. It would allow the government, under Maritime Law, to define
> the introduction of any food into commerce (even direct sales
> between individuals) as smuggling into “the United States.” Since
> under that law, the US is a corporate entity and not a location,
> “entry of food into the US” covers food produced anywhere within
> the land mass of this country and “entering into” it by virtue of
> being produced.
>
> 4. It imposes Codex Alimentarius on the US, a global system of
> control over food. It allows the United Nations (UN), World Health
> Organization (WHO), UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO),
> and the WTO to take control of every food on earth and remove
> access to natural food supplements. Its bizarre history and its
> expected impact in limiting access to adequate nutrition (while
> mandating GM food, GM animals, pesticides, hormones, irradiation
> of food, etc.) threatens all safe and organic food and health itself,
> since the world knows now it needs vitamins to survive, not just to
> treat illnesses.
>
> 5. It would remove the right to clean, store and thus own seed in
> the US, putting control of seeds in the hands of Monsanto and
> other multinationals, threatening US security. See Seeds – How
> to criminalize them, for more details.
>
> 6. It includes NAIS, an animal traceability program that threatens
> all small farmers and ranchers raising animals. The UN is
> participating
> through the WHO, FAO, WTO, and World Organisation for Animal
> Health (OIE) in allowing mass slaughter of even heritage breeds of
> animals and without proof of disease. Biodiversity in farm animals is
> being wiped out to substitute genetically engineered animals on which
> corporations hold patents. Animal diseases can be falsely declared.
> S 510 includes the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), despite its
> corrupt involvement in the H1N1 scandal, which is now said to have
> been concocted by the corporations.
>
> 7. It extends a failed and destructive HACCP to all food, thus
> threatening to do to all local food production and farming what
> HACCP did to meat production – put it in corporate hands and
> worsen food safety.
>
> 8. It deconstructs what is left of the American economy. It takes
> agriculture and food, which are the cornerstone of all economies,
> out of the hands of the citizenry, and puts them under the total
> control of multinational corporations influencing the UN, WHO,
> FAO and WTO, with HHS, and CDC, acting as agents, with Homeland
> Security as the enforcer. The chance to rebuild the economy based
> on farming, ranching, gardens, food production, natural health, and
> all the jobs, tools and connected occupations would be eliminated.
>
> 9. It would allow the government to mandate antibiotics, hormones,
> slaughterhouse waste, pesticides and GMOs. This would industrialize
> every farm in the US, eliminate local organic farming, greatly
> increase global warming from increased use of oil-based products
> and long-distance delivery of foods, and make food even more
> unsafe. The five items listed — the Five Pillars of Food Safety —
> are precisely the items in the food supply which are the primary
> source of its danger.
>
> 10. It uses food crimes as the entry into police state power and
> control. The bill postpones defining all the regulations to be
> imposed; postpones defining crimes to be punished, postpones
> defining penalties to be applied. It removes fundamental
> constitutional protections from all citizens in the country, making
> them subject to a corporate tribunal with unlimited power and
> penalties, and without judicial review.
>
> It is (similar to C-6 in Canada) the end of Rule of Law in the US.
>
> Senator Richard Durbin (D-IL) is the sponsor of this bill.
>
> The bill's co-sponsors are:
>
> Lamar Alexander [R-TN]
> Jeff Bingaman [D-NM]
> Richard Burr [R-NC]
> Roland Burris [D-IL]
> Saxby Chambliss [R-GA]
> Christopher Dodd [D-CT]
> Michael Enzi [R-WY]
> Kirsten Gillibrand [D-NY]
> Judd Gregg [R-NH]
> Thomas Harkin [D-IA]
> Orrin Hatch [R-UT]
> John Isakson [R-GA]
> Edward Kennedy [D-MA]
> Amy Klobuchar [D-MN]
> Ben Nelson [D-NE]
> Tom Udall [D-NM]
> David Vitter [R-LA]
>
>
> Write these senators today and tell them to revoke their support
> of Senate Bill 510!
> You may use the following letter in your correspondence:
> Dear Congress(wo)man,
> I am writing to express my deep concern over your sponsorship
> of Senate Bill 510. This bill represents yet another attempt to
> place more power into the hands of a centralized government,
> while taking power away from states and individual citizens. The
> danger of this bill is that it does so in the domain of our food. It
> sets in place a number of preconditions for manipulation of
> America's food supply and threatens to strip us of our freedoms
> to grow, sell, and buy food. We the people have elected you to
> office to serve us, not to dis-empower us and make us subject to
> bureaucratic regulations lacking our best interests. Please remove
> your sponsorship from Bill S510.
> Sincerely,
> (your name)
>
> Vice Bob's Letter ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
>
> Now, if the letter suggested above makes you feel like a beggar,
> groveling for something that is already yours, and you feel that a
> letter to your non-responsive servant representative is about as
> useful as a screen door on a submarine, you might consider using
> mine. I would suggest sending it to his/her local address - it makes
> it more neighborly personal.
>
> The Honorable Louie Gohmert
> 1121 ESE Loop 323
> Suite 206
> Tyler, Texas 75701
>
> Dear Louie,
> With reference to the Senate Bill S-510, now in
> the processes
> of being passed on Capital (sic) Hill. If you and your
> 'distinguished' colleges
> have a lapse of good, solid, logical judgement and do pass S-510
> into law,
> I have just one fervent, heartfelt request for you to pass on to the
> soon
> to be appointed Food Czar. If you do feel the necessity to send
> someone
> to my private, sovereign homestead with the intent or the perceived
> intent
> to enforce this wholly and totally unconstitutional law, please
> accede to my
> request and NOT SEND A MARRIED MAN WITH CHILDREN. Please!!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bob Worn, Major-USAF (Retired)
> 1811 Shamburger Road
>
>
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Childoftheking,
I feel the same way about having new members come in.
Edited for added thought, Junebug is just part of the "Shelton Gimmick". and SDA Omega.
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Some evangelism here has brought in some folks who know more than you would wish about some of the problems, but who are fairly solid anyway.
Sow the seed, water, and reap wherever possible. Since it is God who gives the increase, trust Him to bring in the strong.
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Who was making sport? I wouldn't answer GJ either. He's vicious! AND it is he preferred way of communicating. He knows he likes being mean. I am not even telling him anything he is ashamed of. I have often said that I know realize why he did not post much, if at all at BSDA.............I would have made it my business to ban him with the quickness. We can always disagree without disagreeable.
I don't think making sport of Junebug like this is the way to go.
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Some evangelism here has brought in some folks who know more than you would wish about some of the problems, but who are fairly solid anyway.
Sow the seed, water, and reap wherever possible. Since it is God who gives the increase, trust Him to bring in the strong.
I understand that too and even myself believe that still can win souls maybe on one to one but to take them into ...what church? Maybe in Michigan there might be some good ole congregations left. I know one SDA church where all -------- replicas are goin on.
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How about we just witnes to them and introduce them to a relationship with Christ, and the the Holy Spirit will lead them where they need to go?
This is the problem with evangelism and baptism being tied in with church membership. Just tell them what God ahs done for you.....just witness.
I understand that too and even myself believe that still can win souls maybe on one to one but to take them into ...what church? Maybe in Michigan there might be some good ole congregations left. I know one SDA church where all -------- replicas are goin on.
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Goes to show how different each forum is: BSDA. Maritime, Club Adventist, etc.
Who was making sport? I wouldn't answer GJ either. He's vicious! AND it is he preferred way of communicating. He knows he likes being mean. I am not even telling him anything he is ashamed of. I have often said that I know realize why he did not post much, if at all at BSDA.............I would have made it my business to ban him with the quickness. We can always disagree without disagreeable.
I don't think making sport of Junebug like this is the way to go.
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I had a chance to witness to a Catholic woman today about the saving grace of Jesus. She believed she had to be good to be saved. She also believed that she had to work for her salvation. I told her that Jesus did the work for her and it was grace. I am hoping Thursday I will have a better chance to talk to her.
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Goes to show how different each forum is: BSDA. Maritime, Club Adventist, etc.
Space for diversity? ? ? :dogwag:
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Amen Mrst53! Unfortunately, we(SDAs) have our own version of "salvation by works" only giving lip service to "salvation by faith". Taht is why i say just to live the life before them and answer their questions as a testimony. Depending who you are speaking with, you can end up arguing Bible text all day. We are called to be witnesses. What God has done for you, the effects of that love relationship in your life cannt be disputed or argued.
I had a chance to witness to a Catholic woman today about the saving grace of Jesus. She believed she had to be good to be saved. She also believed that she had to work for her salvation. I told her that Jesus did the work for her and it was grace. I am hoping Thursday I will have a better chance to talk to her.
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Do you know Gailon, Di? Have you ever had a conversation with him?
Who was making sport? I wouldn't answer GJ either. He's vicious! AND it is he preferred way of communicating. He knows he likes being mean. I am not even telling him anything he is ashamed of. I have often said that I know realize why he did not post much, if at all at BSDA.............I would have made it my business to ban him with the quickness. We can always disagree without disagreeable.
I don't think making sport of Junebug like this is the way to go.
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I believe that our works comes after the salvation - as in the'fruits of the Spirit"
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A wise old friend of mine went to seminary many years ago. He tells the story of how he was supposed to do Bibles studies with people in the community. He had been through the classes and knew how to argue the finer points of theology, he knew the prophecies, and he knew how to prove everything he was arguing, from scripture. An elderly man let him into his home and they started studying. After about ten minutes, the man showed my friend to the door and told him the words that forever changed his life and ministry. He said "You would make a great attorney for your faith, but you aren't much of a witness."
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AMEN mrst53 AMEN!
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A wise old friend of mine went to seminary many years ago. He tells the story of how he was supposed to do Bibles studies with people in the community. He had been through the classes and knew how to argue the finer points of theology, he knew the prophecies, and he knew how to prove everything he was arguing, from scripture. An elderly man let him into his home and they started studying. After about ten minutes, the man showed my friend to the door and told him the words that forever changed his life and ministry. He said "You would make a great attorney for your faith, but you aren't much of a witness."
What good is a "witness" without any belief and doctrine of facts to back it up. Not so sure the elderly man wanted to hear anything from a knock on the door from a finer detailed gentleman. The finer point gentleman may have run up against a "Jehovah Witness" and that would be their reaction or sarcasm. They really don't have much knowledge and because they have their own Bible Versions. IT sounds like one anyway. How do we know the other side of the story??
Ever invite one in and let them talk? Ask them to pray first :ROFL:
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And what good are belief, and doctrine of facts without "witness" to back them up? Without a balance of both, ministry is empty and means nothing. The Pharisees had belief and doctrine of facts but without the loving witness, belief and doctrine were a whited sepulchre. Jesus revolutionized the world by being not a lawyer, or a "witness", but both. When Jesus was attacked for breaking the Sabbath rules firmly established as doctrine of fact through holy scripture, he said "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
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And what good are belief, and doctrine of facts without "witness" to back them up? Without a balance of both, ministry is empty and means nothing. The Pharisees had belief and doctrine of facts but without the loving witness, belief and doctrine were a whited sepulchre. Jesus revolutionized the world by being not a lawyer, or a "witness", but both. When Jesus was attacked for breaking the Sabbath rules firmly established as doctrine of fact through holy scripture, he said "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
[flash=200,200][/You hit the nail on the head, they deleted love. Isn't it Ellen White that laments the fact that adding people to the church is not a sign of the Holy Ghost.
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Seems like I was 7 years old the first time I read much of the Old Testament. In those Scriptures I discovered men who were not afraid of calling sin by its right name. In a way I was horrified by it - just like some people seem horrified by reading GJ. Being familiar now with the language of Scripture I see the similarities, even if I might try to refine my own language.
Which forum is for those who accept the Scriptures? Only certain portions of the Old Testament? Only the New Testament? Only what pleases themselves? Only what pleases xx or zz? Take you pick!
Goes to show how different each forum is: BSDA. Maritime, Club Adventist, etc.
Who was making sport? I wouldn't answer GJ either. He's vicious! AND it is he preferred way of communicating. He knows he likes being mean. I am not even telling him anything he is ashamed of. I have often said that I know realize why he did not post much, if at all at BSDA.............I would have made it my business to ban him with the quickness. We can always disagree without disagreeable.
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Come on, Pastor Johann. You know not even having you speak, you are one of my fav SDA pastors, just by the example of your life I have come to know in the passed 5-6 years. But you have got to be kidding me!
You know whatever we do, we need to do all "to the glory of God" and with His love. That includes calling sin by its name. Now, I have personally said that I believe that Danny is just shady as they come, but no one....NO ONE....can ever say I was mean, cruel, or disrespectful. The same can be said about you. GJ is ALL of that, and there is NO love in his posts. He insults people, calls them names. etc. It is not what he is trying to say, but how he is saying it. He really should dial it back about 50 notches. It doesn't make anyone change their mind or come to the understanding he is trying to bring. It just makes them not want to talk to him any further. That is a shame, because much of the time he does have truth on his side. However, if he is being abusive, disruptive, and down right obnoxious, nobody is going to hear the truth. So in that respect he is defeating his own purpose.
Remember, disagreeing WITHOUT, being disagreeeable. BTW, this goes for all those who post such toxic posts....on both sides.
Seems like I was 7 years old the first time I read much of the Old Testament. In those Scriptures I discovered men who were not afraid of calling sin by its right name. In a way I was horrified by it - just like some people seem horrified by reading GJ. Being familiar now with the language of Scripture I see the similarities, even if I might try to refine my own language.
Which forum is for those who accept the Scriptures? Only certain portions of the Old Testament? Only the New Testament? Only what pleases themselves? Only what pleases xx or zz? Take you pick!
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Snoopy, you know, You are right. I have not had a personal conversation with him. But I can read. I have read his posts here. I also know that he doesn't answer me, and others with the venom that he answers some others, mainly those who disagree with him. I even disagree with him on occasion, but he still is not disrespectful or rude....which makes me know that he knows the difference.
Just by example, Tinka and I got off to a rocky start, however, we have now come to an understanding, and we treat each other with respect, even when we are expressing diametrically opposing arguments. We seldom agree i some areas, but I have come to respect her because I believe she is sincere in her beliefs. That only happened when we started addressing each other with common respect. We even found out that we agreed in some areas, that we could not see before.
Do you know Gailon, Di? Have you ever had a conversation with him?
Who was making sport? I wouldn't answer GJ either. He's vicious! AND it is he preferred way of communicating. He knows he likes being mean. I am not even telling him anything he is ashamed of. I have often said that I know realize why he did not post much, if at all at BSDA.............I would have made it my business to ban him with the quickness. We can always disagree without disagreeable.
I don't think making sport of Junebug like this is the way to go.
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Excellent post!!!!! :thumbsup:
Come on, Pastor Johann. You know not even having you speak, you are one of my fav SDA pastors, just by the example of your life I have come to know in the passed 5-6 years. But you have got to be kidding me!
You know whatever we do, we need to do all "to the glory of God" and with His love. That includes calling sin by its name. Now, I have personally said that I believe that Danny is just shady as they come, but no one....NO ONE....can ever say I was mean, cruel, or disrespectful. The same can be said about you. GJ is ALL of that, and there is NO love in his posts. He insults people, calls them names. etc. It is not what he is trying to say, but how he is saying it. He really should dial it back about 50 notches. It doesn't make anyone change their mind or come to the understanding he is trying to bring. It just makes them not want to talk to him any further. That is a shame, because much of the time he does have truth on his side. However, if he is being abusive, disruptive, and down right obnoxious, nobody is going to hear the truth. So in that respect he is defeating his own purpose.
Remember, disagreeing WITHOUT, being disagreeeable. BTW, this goes for all those who post such toxic posts....on both sides.
Seems like I was 7 years old the first time I read much of the Old Testament. In those Scriptures I discovered men who were not afraid of calling sin by its right name. In a way I was horrified by it - just like some people seem horrified by reading GJ. Being familiar now with the language of Scripture I see the similarities, even if I might try to refine my own language.
Which forum is for those who accept the Scriptures? Only certain portions of the Old Testament? Only the New Testament? Only what pleases themselves? Only what pleases xx or zz? Take you pick!
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I like you too, Di. I suppose you have read the following passages?
Numbers 32:14
"And here you are, a brood of sinners, standing in the place of your fathers and making the LORD even more angry with Israel."
2 Kings 5:27
"Naaman's leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever." Then Gehazi went from Elisha's presence and he was leprous, as white as snow.
Was there a worse curse than leprosy? Just because Gehazi had behaved somewhat like a certain man we have been dealing with. . . Elisha told him off!
What did Jesus say?
Matthew 23:23-28 (New International Version)
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Here are just a few samples from Scripture. Aren't they terrible?
When I was a young pastor some of my seniors were a particular breed who spoke quite a bit like GJ to people who they thought were not following the blueprint. Back in those days we were winning souls in the Western World. When we reached the pinnacle in soul winning in my area around 1960 most of us started speaking softly and very very considerate of those we disagreed with. At the same time our soul winning plummeted and soon we were baptizing less than the number we lost.
Are we really too nice today to warn people of the impending destruction and the Coming of the Lord? Shouldn't we rather let them perish in comfort? Is it the purpose of our websites to make people comfortable in their sins? Do people who seem very serious not show the love of God when they "shout" a warning?
We have a granddaughter who is so "nice" to her brothers that she will ask them if they'd consider not being so noisy. Not all people have that "gift". How do we teach them?
Come on, Pastor Johann. You know not even having you speak, you are one of my fav SDA pastors, just by the example of your life I have come to know in the passed 5-6 years. But you have got to be kidding me!
You know whatever we do, we need to do all "to the glory of God" and with His love. That includes calling sin by its name. Now, I have personally said that I believe that Danny is just shady as they come, but no one....NO ONE....can ever say I was mean, cruel, or disrespectful. The same can be said about you. GJ is ALL of that, and there is NO love in his posts. He insults people, calls them names. etc. It is not what he is trying to say, but how he is saying it. He really should dial it back about 50 notches. It doesn't make anyone change their mind or come to the understanding he is trying to bring. It just makes them not want to talk to him any further. That is a shame, because much of the time he does have truth on his side. However, if he is being abusive, disruptive, and down right obnoxious, nobody is going to hear the truth. So in that respect he is defeating his own purpose.
Remember, disagreeing WITHOUT, being disagreeeable. BTW, this goes for all those who post such toxic posts....on both sides.
Seems like I was 7 years old the first time I read much of the Old Testament. In those Scriptures I discovered men who were not afraid of calling sin by its right name. In a way I was horrified by it - just like some people seem horrified by reading GJ. Being familiar now with the language of Scripture I see the similarities, even if I might try to refine my own language.
Which forum is for those who accept the Scriptures? Only certain portions of the Old Testament? Only the New Testament? Only what pleases themselves? Only what pleases xx or zz? Take you pick!
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I like you too, Di. I suppose you have read the following passages?
Numbers 32:14
"And here you are, a brood of sinners, standing in the place of your fathers and making the LORD even more angry with Israel."
2 Kings 5:27
"Naaman's leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever." Then Gehazi went from Elisha's presence and he was leprous, as white as snow.
Was there a worse curse than leprosy? Just because Gehazi had behaved somewhat like a certain man we have been dealing with. . . Elisha told him off!
What did Jesus say?
Matthew 23:23-28 (New International Version)
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Here are just a few samples from Scripture. Aren't they terrible?
When I was a young pastor some of my seniors were a particular breed who spoke quite a bit like GJ to people who they thought were not following the blueprint. Back in those days we were winning souls in the Western World. When we reached the pinnacle in soul winning in my area around 1960 most of us started speaking softly and very very considerate of those we disagreed with. At the same time our soul winning plummeted and soon we were baptizing less than the number we lost.
Are we really too nice today to warn people of the impending destruction and the Coming of the Lord? Shouldn't we rather let them perish in comfort? Is it the purpose of our websites to make people comfortable in their sins? Do people who seem very serious not show the love of God when they "shout" a warning?
We have a granddaughter who is so "nice" to her brothers that she will ask them if they'd consider not being so noisy. Not all people have that "gift". How do we teach them?
Come on, Pastor Johann. You know not even having you speak, you are one of my fav SDA pastors, just by the example of your life I have come to know in the passed 5-6 years. But you have got to be kidding me!
You know whatever we do, we need to do all "to the glory of God" and with His love. That includes calling sin by its name. Now, I have personally said that I believe that Danny is just shady as they come, but no one....NO ONE....can ever say I was mean, cruel, or disrespectful. The same can be said about you. GJ is ALL of that, and there is NO love in his posts. He insults people, calls them names. etc. It is not what he is trying to say, but how he is saying it. He really should dial it back about 50 notches. It doesn't make anyone change their mind or come to the understanding he is trying to bring. It just makes them not want to talk to him any further. That is a shame, because much of the time he does have truth on his side. However, if he is being abusive, disruptive, and down right obnoxious, nobody is going to hear the truth. So in that respect he is defeating his own purpose.
Remember, disagreeing WITHOUT, being disagreeeable. BTW, this goes for all those who post such toxic posts....on both sides.
Seems like I was 7 years old the first time I read much of the Old Testament. In those Scriptures I discovered men who were not afraid of calling sin by its right name. In a way I was horrified by it - just like some people seem horrified by reading GJ. Being familiar now with the language of Scripture I see the similarities, even if I might try to refine my own language.
Which forum is for those who accept the Scriptures? Only certain portions of the Old Testament? Only the New Testament? Only what pleases themselves? Only what pleases xx or zz? Take you pick!
The teachers of the Law are referring to the lawyers, and the Pharicees who were the preachers. The two worst offenders of society and that is who Jesus got on the worst. Called them snakes and vipers and theives.
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No wonder there are so many jokes about lawyers :ROFL: Jesus started it!
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Jesus knew :)
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I just posted a new joke under Jokes
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And you know, Tinka, I thought about this very example as I typed my posts. Difference is, HE IS Jesus. GJ is not talking directly to Danny, but in actuality to those GJ(and the rest of us) feel are being mislead by Danny. Jesus never talked to the people that way, just those responsible for putting them in the state they were in. For distorting and corrupting the system, He gave them so badly, that it no longer served it's purpose in pointing to His Coming and impending Sacrifice for them.
Ok missed your first response. You know Tinka, God seem to lose patience with the COI manytimes int he OT. After all, howmany times did He deliver them from captivity only to have them turn around and be unfaithful, falling into "spiritual adultery(the correct usage)" again and again. During their waundering itneh wilderness, Moses had to plead for God not to leave them, and for their very lives. But once again......HE IS God. What has GJ done for all these people he berates that he can talk to them like that? Until he starts doing some of those things listed in Job 40(?)ish..........he does need to dial it back a whole lot......
......my mantra.....disagree without being disageeable...........
The teachers of the Law are referring to the lawyers, and the Pharicees who were the preachers. The two worst offenders of society and that is who Jesus got on the worst. Called them snakes and vipers and theives.
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And you know, Tinka, I thought about this very example as I typed my posts. Difference is, HE IS Jesus. GJ is not talking directly to Danny, but in actuality to those GJ(and the rest of us) feel are being mislead by Danny.
Are you saying those people are really beyond restoration?
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Definitely not! Where there is life, there is hope!
They are also gifted free will by God, and right now they are choosing to follow the words of Danny. We all have the right to make the wrong decision, and have exercised that right more than we like to admit.
The real point, that I am making is that they don't deserved to be talked to as GJ often does, and he has no right to speak to them like that. "ALL have sinned and come short": "He who has not sinned....", etc. All that comes into play.
I am also going to repeat that GJ has never spoken to me in a disrespectful manner, and I appreciate that. However, the venom he spews at others is inexcusable and unChristlike.
Are you saying those people are really beyond restoration?
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Well Di,
I understand GJ very well and that is probably because as you have read in my comments, (although, I have a very soft heart in one sense and like "Palin" am a very grizzly mama when it comes to trounced on victims of anything. I am also a very strong Slovenian American county woman that makes no time for the small talk over and over. I basically hit it hard and straight forward. I do relate well with GJ knowing exactly where and how he states things and why. I do a lot of extra talk at times but no one guesses where I come from whether right or wrong. I am a defender of those who suffer but am nothing but a pain to those who I see cause the suffering. There is tooooo much suffering as far as I am concerned all caused by greed and the almighty dollar and pain caused by the preying on innocence by adultery that crushes life's like flies. and that is about all it's worth is a flies life when the sins take another life through hell. Going through that right now with my youngest and today under this she told me she did not think she could go on. I face these things too. IF children were involved I probably would do some grizzly stuff. It's hard to see and feel for victims and am very very short with it. GJ shoots it straight away and I understand.
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And you also know, Tinka, that I don't bite my tongue, either. However there is NO excuse to be rude pr mean. I also understand where GJ is coming from, as I said before, he often has truth on his side. However, he will not win anyone over with that attitude. The ultimate example is that, in spite of our sins, God does not talk to or treat us like that, and He gave us the Life of His more than Precious Son.
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The two worst offenders of society and that is who Jesus got on the worst. Called them snakes and vipers and theives.
Ssshhhh, tinka, better not disturb the sleeping saints! Do you think Jesus might have been in a bad mood when he said that - or under the influence of GJ?
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No, (smile)
He knew they oppressed the people with their talents and positions.
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Exactly, Tinka!
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I think sometimes we have be like Jesus when he wrote in the sand and did not condem the woman and other times we have to be like Jesus and throw the money changers out of the Temple. The hardest part is knowing when to be which one. Always being one way or the other is not good, I don't think. We just have to pray to be able to know which way to be.
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HUGE difference, Mrst53.....It was His house[temple].....right? It is still HIS job to throw out the money changers. No disciples threw around tables or did any name calling. Notice those are things Jesus did all by Himself.
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I like you too, Di. I suppose you have read the following passages?
Numbers 32:14
"And here you are, a brood of sinners, standing in the place of your fathers and making the LORD even more angry with Israel."
2 Kings 5:27
"Naaman's leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever." Then Gehazi went from Elisha's presence and he was leprous, as white as snow.
Was there a worse curse than leprosy? Just because Gehazi had behaved somewhat like a certain man we have been dealing with. . . Elisha told him off!
What did Jesus say?
Matthew 23:23-28 (New International Version)
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Here are just a few samples from Scripture. Aren't they terrible?
When I was a young pastor some of my seniors were a particular breed who spoke quite a bit like GJ to people who they thought were not following the blueprint. Back in those days we were winning souls in the Western World. When we reached the pinnacle in soul winning in my area around 1960 most of us started speaking softly and very very considerate of those we disagreed with. At the same time our soul winning plummeted and soon we were baptizing less than the number we lost.
Are we really too nice today to warn people of the impending destruction and the Coming of the Lord? Shouldn't we rather let them perish in comfort? Is it the purpose of our websites to make people comfortable in their sins? Do people who seem very serious not show the love of God when they "shout" a warning?
We have a granddaughter who is so "nice" to her brothers that she will ask them if they'd consider not being so noisy. Not all people have that "gift". How do we teach them?
Come on, Pastor Johann. You know not even having you speak, you are one of my fav SDA pastors, just by the example of your life I have come to know in the passed 5-6 years. But you have got to be kidding me!
You know whatever we do, we need to do all "to the glory of God" and with His love. That includes calling sin by its name. Now, I have personally said that I believe that Danny is just shady as they come, but no one....NO ONE....can ever say I was mean, cruel, or disrespectful. The same can be said about you. GJ is ALL of that, and there is NO love in his posts. He insults people, calls them names. etc. It is not what he is trying to say, but how he is saying it. He really should dial it back about 50 notches. It doesn't make anyone change their mind or come to the understanding he is trying to bring. It just makes them not want to talk to him any further. That is a shame, because much of the time he does have truth on his side. However, if he is being abusive, disruptive, and down right obnoxious, nobody is going to hear the truth. So in that respect he is defeating his own purpose.
Remember, disagreeing WITHOUT, being disagreeeable. BTW, this goes for all those who post such toxic posts....on both sides.
Seems like I was 7 years old the first time I read much of the Old Testament. In those Scriptures I discovered men who were not afraid of calling sin by its right name. In a way I was horrified by it - just like some people seem horrified by reading GJ. Being familiar now with the language of Scripture I see the similarities, even if I might try to refine my own language.
Which forum is for those who accept the Scriptures? Only certain portions of the Old Testament? Only the New Testament? Only what pleases themselves? Only what pleases xx or zz? Take you pick!
And yet we read in the bible, that when the leprosy was white and to the head to the toe the person was considered clean. I have wrestle with the curse of leprosy that Gehezi had for years, the sign of being clean was that the leaprocy covered the entire body and was white. His leprosy was not unto death but a perpetual mark that could never be erased. Everytime he was asked he would of a certanitly have to relay the story of Naaman.